Yeast/Leaven: Ever good?

[Daisy]

Fresh grape juice, if put in air-tight containers and placed in very cold water, 45° or lower, will not ferment. Science has proven this.

Even the ground is capable of keeping an item cold for months. I remember an experiment years back in which we made a snowball one winter and buried it with sawdust in the ground. During the month of June, we dug the hole up and the snowball was still just as cold as it was that cold winter day!

That's really neat! I'd like to try that this winter - New York is a lot like Pennsylvania, climatewise. Did you dig the hole before the ground froze? How deep did you have to go? How big was the snowball and how much sawdust did you use?

Alcohol was not created by God. Alcohol is a by-product that man invented because of man's sinful nature.

Alcohol occurs naturally. Wasps get drunk on grapes fermented still on the vine in the sun. Grapes which don't ferment or spoil dry out and become raisins.

Kosher wine has varying degrees of alcohol, from 4% to the same as table wine (8-12%). It is ususally very sweet - sugar is added, not corn syrup because corn is considered a grain and it is leavened grains - like beer made from barley or whiskey made from rye - that must be cleaned from the house. Likewise, many people buy their Coca Cola during the Jewish holy days because the Kosher coke is sweetened with real sugar, not grain-based corn syrup.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Wasps get drunk on grapes?

Where do you guys get this material from? How in the world does one know a wasp is drunk? A tiny yellojacket in a cop uniform giving breathalizer tests?

"Sorry, Mr. Wasp. We are going to have to place you under arrest. You have had one too many grapes." "Come along peacefully, don't make me call the boys with the net."

You moderation guys are a riot.

 

[DHK]

Your friend either isn't jewish...or you are not being totally honest with us. Jews do drink alcoholic wine at Passover (I have a family member who's jewish), and this has been the custom for thousands of years.

WOW!!!
Can I meet your friend??
He was right there with Jesus, and has observed this custom all these thousands of years as you imply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amazing!!
That's quite some gnostic knowledge that you have.
DHK

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Must be Jews who are degenerate. There were some who thought their way was better than the way God prescribed clean back in the wilderness.

They did not want the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; they wanted a false god. One who would not convict them of their rebellion and revelry.

Same mindset is prevalent in people today. We want a god who will allow us to do that which pleases the flesh.

For the same reason that God did not allow the Israelites entry into the promised land, He will not allow some who claim to be His children entrance into His eternal Kingdom.

People who want to get to heaven on their terms, still living a sinful lifestyle; whether it be alcohol, drugs, lasciviousness, whatever the vice is that people will not give up to serve Him fully (be filled with the Spirit), will hear those fateful words, 'Depart from me, I never knew you.)

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Wasps get drunk on grapes?

Where do you guys get this material from? How in the world does one know a wasp is drunk? A tiny yellojacket in a cop uniform giving breathalizer tests?

"Sorry, Mr. Wasp. We are going to have to place you under arrest. You have had one too many grapes." "Come along peacefully, don't make me call the boys with the net."

You moderation guys are a riot.

Drunken wasp sentenced to 30 days and ordered to return nectar after mad as a hornet rampage in local vineyard and greenhouse. News at 11.

 

[Eliyahu]

I think you continue to post to convince yourself you are right. Those who stick to true judaism drink alcoholic wine, period...they are the "conservatives".

For the last time...alcoholic wine does NOT contain leaven! The leaven is killed by fermentation! Please learn something about fermentation...please!

Often Webdog has been correct on many issues in many other threads:thumbs:
But on this issue, you may be wrong.
Leavens are not killed by fermentation. Boiling may kill it.
I think Jews are not so uniform on this matter as there are many sects among them.
Messianic Jews whom I know discern wine and beer as containing yeast.

 

[Daisy]

Concerning this custom, Dr. Nott states the following:
Plutarch affirms that before the time of Psammetichus, who lived six hundred years before Christ, the Egyptians neither drank fermented wine nor offered it in sacrifice.

Who is Dr Nott?

From what I can find*, the ancient Egyptians did make and drink wine. Wine-making is depicted on the ancient murals and actual sealed umphalos of wine have been found in the tombs.

Wine, known as yrp to the Egyptians, was very expensive. It was drunk by those who could afford it, used as offerings to the gods and to the dead. The resurrected pharaoh was known as one "one of the four gods ... who live on figs and who drink wine." Even in later times, the Greek tourists report that wine was confines to the wealthy. Though wine, too, was occasionally given out as pay - the workmen at the pyramids at Giza had four kinds of wine to drink, along with five kinds of beer.

The word wine, funnily enough, predates the word for vine, so it seems that the Egyptians imported wine long before they imported grapes to the Nile valley.

The Egyptians has several different kinds of wine, some of which have been commended by ancient authors for their excellent qualities. That of Mareotis was the most esteemed, and in the greatest quantity.


Athenæus tells us that the Mareotic wine was "white, its quality excellent, and it is sweet and light with a fragrant bouquet; it is by no means astringent, nor does it affect the head." Strabo wrote that the wine was also known for its long shelf-life.

*snip*

...It seems, though, that the favourite wine from the Old Kingdom onwards was red wine. The white wine that the Greeks favoured was only produced from the Middle Kingdom onwards.

In ancient party scenes on the tomb walls, wine is seen offered to the guests. It seems that a lot of wine was consumed at the banquets, because there are a number of images depicting the guests throwing up or being carried home because of their drunken state - drunkenness was seen as an amusement to the ancient Egyptians!
*snip*

In the Pyramid Texts the god Shesmu brings the king grape juice for wine production. Although he was a god of wine and of the wine press, he was also a vengeful god - in a papyrus from the 21st Dynasty, Shesmu his cruel side was shown by two hawk deities twisting the net of the wine press which contains three human heads instead of grapes. Hathor, also a goddess of wine (and beer), was also both a goddess of love and a goddess of destruction.

Source: Egyptology by Caroline Seawright 3/12/2001

*Citations:
Harris, Geraldine. Gods and Pharaohs from Egyptian Mythology. Italy: 1982, Eurobook Limited.
Lesko, Leonard. King Tutankhamun’s Cellar. Berkley: B.C. Scribe Publications, 1978.
Lutz, H.F. Viticulture and Brewing in the Ancient Orient. Leipzig: J.C. Hinrichs, 1922.
McGovern, Patrick E and Stuart Fleming and Solomon H. Katz, eds. The Origins and
Ancient History of Wine. The Netherlands: Gordon and Breach Publishers, 1996.
Montet, Pierre. Everyday life in Egypt in the Days of Ramesses the Great. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1981
Murray, Mary Anne. “Viticulture and Wine Production.” In Nicholson, P., and Ian Shaw (eds.). Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2000
Nunn, J.F. Ancient Egyptian Medicine. London: BMP, 1996
Poo, Mu-Choo. Wine and Wine Offering in the Religion of Ancient Egypt. Columbia: Columbia University Press, 1995.
De Blij, Wine: A Geographic Appreciation. Rowman & Allanheld: New Jersey, 1983.
Lichine, Alexis. Alexis Lichine's New Encyclopedia of Wines and Spirits Third Ed. Alfred A. Knopf: New York, 1984.


http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/ancienttech/egypt.wine.html (Author: Jenny Taylor)
http://www.arabworldbooks.com/egyptomania/wine.htm

 

[webdog]

WOW!!!
Can I meet your friend??
He was right there with Jesus, and has observed this custom all these thousands of years as you imply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amazing!!
That's quite some gnostic knowledge that you have.
DHK

Shows the level at which you thouroughly read. I said relative...not friend. At any rate, I find it quite comical that you think the Passover has ceased at some point in time...and then started again with the use of grape juice. Or maybe it was the late 1800's when pasteurization started? You guys are a riot!

 

[Daisy]

Wasps get drunk on grapes?

Fermented grapes, the alcohol in them.

Where do you guys get this material from? How in the world does one know a wasp is drunk? A tiny yellojacket in a cop uniform giving breathalizer tests?

It's semi-well-known to gardeners and picnickers. Google on "drunk wasps" and you can find many, many sources.

You moderation guys are a riot.

Probably merrier than the teetotallers but less given to laughter than the drunks.

 

[webdog]

Often Webdog has been correct on many issues in many other threads:thumbs:
But on this issue, you may be wrong.
Leavens are not killed by fermentation. Boiling may kill it.
I think Jews are not so uniform on this matter as there are many sects among them.
Messianic Jews whom I know discern wine and beer as containing yeast.

Fermentation ends after the yeast has eaten all the sugar. At this point the yeast dies and becomes sediment, called lees, and sits at the bottom of the vat.
Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

 

[Daisy]

Fermentation ends after the yeast has eaten all the sugar.

I believe they also die when the alcohol content reaches around 15%, so even if you added sugar (and Kosher wines are often sweetened) fermentation stops. The only way to raise the alcohol content further is distillation or freezing (the water freezes first; take out the ice and the alcohol is more concentrated - applejack is made that way from hard cider, I've heard).

 

[webdog]

I believe they also die when the alcohol content reaches around 15%, so even if you added sugar (and Kosher wines are often sweetened) fermentation stops. The only way to raise the alcohol content further is distillation or freezing (the water freezes first; take out the ice and the alcohol is more concentrated - applejack is made that way from hard cider, I've heard).

You're right, I forgot to state the alcohol percent.

 

[DHK]

Shows the level at which you thouroughly read. I said relative...not friend. At any rate, I find it quite comical that you think the Passover has ceased at some point in time...and then started again with the use of grape juice. Or maybe it was the late 1800's when pasteurization started? You guys are a riot!

The fact is that just because you friend is Jewish, it doesn't mean that he would know any more about the Passover than me or you, or anyone else who would take the time to study the Bible, and Jewish customs at the time of Christ.
When the temple of Jerusalem was destoyed in 70 A.D. the celebration of the Passover ceased. Thus the Jew of today knows little about its celebration. He doesn't celebrate it any more than you do. In fact it is because the Christian carries on the remembrance of the death and resurrection of Christ in the Lord's Supper, and studies his Bible (both OT and NT), would give credence to the view that the Christian would know more about the Passover than today's average Jew.

After the destruction of the temple the Passover became a home service. The paschal lamb was no longer included. Only the Samaritans have continued this rite to this day. In the Jewish home a roasted bone is placed on the table in memory of the rite, and other articles symbolic of the Passover are placed beside it: such as a roasted egg
After the destruction of the temple the Passover became a home service. The paschal lamb was no longer included. Only the Samaritans have continued this rite to this day. In the Jewish home a roasted bone is placed on the table in memory of the rite, and other articles symbolic of the Passover are placed beside it: such as a roasted egg (ISBE)

There is no Passover today. It doesn't really matter what your Jewish relative says.
DHK

 

[Daisy]

There is no Passover today. It doesn't really matter what your Jewish relative says.
DHK

Right, cause Jews are ignorant of their own customs and history.

 

[DHK]

Right, cause Jews are ignorant of their own customs and history.

The Passover hasn't been practiced for 2,000 years. The Christian studies as much about the passover as the modern day Jew does, if he studies his Bible. He even has the advantage of the NT, which the Jew disdains. Tradition isn't always reliable. I don't believe that Jew of today is at an advantage over the Christian. He is an unsaved man, lost, without an understanding of the Scriptures, and yes, of the true significance of the Passover.
DHK

 

[webdog]

The Passover hasn't been practiced for 2,000 years. The Christian studies as much about the passover as the modern day Jew does, if he studies his Bible. He even has the advantage of the NT, which the Jew disdains. Tradition isn't always reliable. I don't believe that Jew of today is at an advantage over the Christian. He is an unsaved man, lost, without an understanding of the Scriptures, and yes, of the true significance of the Passover.
DHK

Christianity has been passed down for thousands of years, too. How do we know that it is accurate? It is an ignorant statement to say the passover hasn't been practiced for 2000 years. It makes no difference who "studies" it, the practice has been handed down for generations.

 

[webdog]

There is no Passover today. It doesn't really matter what your Jewish relative says.

I'll be sure to tell my jewish relative (not friend) that a non jew says that the passover hasn't been passed on from generation to generation.

 

[DHK]

I'll be sure to tell my jewish relative (not friend) that a non jew says that the passover hasn't been passed on from generation to generation.

I'll be interested in his answer, since Biblically the Passover could only be held in the Temple at Jerusalem, as were all the feasts of the Jews.
DHK

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The passover lamb was to be killed by the High Priest in the temple. Since Jesus became both our High Priest and that one time for all Passover Lamb, there is no more passover for the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride.

 

[Eliyahu]

Fermentation ends after the yeast has eaten all the sugar. At this point the yeast dies and becomes sediment, called lees, and sits at the bottom of the vat.
Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

The reason why God prohibited Leavens during Days of ULB was because Leavens represent the sin and corruption.
If what you said is true scientifically, then you may be right for the part of wine. However, even in this case, if the wine was formed by using the leavens already, then it cannot represent Jesus Christ, the sinless person.
Even though we cook the Leavened Bread which was fermented already, even if the Bread was cooked completely and therefore all the leavens died, still the fact that the Bread is puffed up remain, and therefore the Leavened Bread cannot be used.

However, I do respect yours and Daisy's explanation about the wine, either because of alcohol or sugar contents, we can think about it.