You can be saved without the Gospel???

[agedman]

And here is what we know, there is only one person in history that has done this. ONE. Jesus Christ.

That is not what Paul is stating. "Doers" not doer.

No, that may be what the post talked about, but the part quoted in this OP is where his post went into straight heresy.

In isolation it would be.

But in context of what verse he is using, it is not.

Moses looked to the future Messiah. The savior. He believed the promise. So in that sense, yes. He did.

From where do you gather this? There is nothing from the Scripture account that gives this information. At best, Moses was taught the history up to that date by his mother, but even that is assumed because she nursed him.

That is not what this is saying at all. Nobody lives according to the law.

Are you expressing that Moses and Aaron didn't live "according to the law?"
How about Joshua and Caleb, David, Elijah and the others?
Did the rich young ruler not express that he had kept the law from his youth?

Or are you saying that one is made sinless by keeping the law?

The keeping of the law makes no one sinless, rather, the law declares the need to be made sinless. The law is not the reformer but the teacher of need to reform, and one finding that reformation is not enough is then pressed by the law into the need of a redemption.

Prior to the written law, the law already existed and continues to exist in the all hearts. The Jews were entrusted with the "oracles of God" but that did not mean the heart of all humankind was and is not written upon. Rather, that written upon the heart was darkened, marred, perverted, ... as Romans 1 declares.

One does not have to make the world aware of sin. The law is already written in the heart, the Holy Spirit already at work bringing conviction and the knowledge of condemnation, of

course it is heretical.

Out of context, yes. In context, no.

Look at the Scripture principle concerning the law and righteousness given in Romans 4:
Paul is showing that is was not the work of Abraham but "to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,"

7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”​

9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.​

So, the principle applied then is that despite (as John 1 declares) one turns from the light, but turns back (repents) and dwell in the light, to that person the Scriptures state God gives the authority to become His child.

That is the context of which Romans is expressing, and that which the post you objected is making.

 

[Reformed]

The Westminster makes exceptions for those beyond the reach of the gospel, infants, and the impaired.

The same with the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith:

10.3 Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

While debates rage about infants dying in infancy and the ability of the impaired to understand the Gospel, there should be no debate about those who are capable of cognition. The fact is that God is under no obligation to save anyone or provide everyone the same opportunity to hear the Gospel. I think people err when the transfer the human idea of fairness and equity onto God.

 

[agedman]

The whole post does not change his last statement at all.

Again, in isolation it would not, but in context it most certainly does.

Now, I am very thankful that you raised this issue.

It must be clear that the Gospel must be preached, that the message of God reconciling the world to Him be presented. Such should not be in the slighted diminished.

BUT, what must also be held is that the creator is sovereign. He has the authority to do as He pleases concerning the His creation.

He may make the morning stars sing, He may call Nebuchadnezzar His servant, He may make the light of Christ shine in the heart in such a manner that it drive that person to repentance and belief just as it did in Seth, Noah, Abraham, Moses, ....

Even in this modern time, many may know the facts concerning the redemption (gospel), and may even have knowledge of names, places, dates. But have no witness of the work of God in their life.

One may (even in this modern time) posses no knowledge concerning the facts of the redemption story, but by the work of the Holy Spirit be understanding of the need for a redeemer, and trusting that God provided.

Therefore, Paul is correct is remarking that the doer of the law and not the hearer only is justified - saved.

 

[Reformed1689]

BUT, what must also be held is that the creator is sovereign. He has the authority to do as He pleases concerning the His creation.

Of course, but he also can only do things within the restrictions he has placed on himself, for God cannot lie.

Therefore, Paul is correct is remarking that the doer of the law and not the hearer only is justified - saved.

Yes, what do you think he is talking about here? He is not saying that people who have never heard can be saved. No. He is referring to the Jews. They have the law, but having the law is not enough. You must be a doer of the law. This in no way is saying that people who have not heard can be saved.

 

[kyredneck]

Like John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb?

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

 

[agedman]

Of course, but he also can only do things within the restrictions he has placed on himself, for God cannot lie.

Of course. I don't think that this is the issue, though. Romans does not put a restriction upon God.

Yes, what do you think he is talking about here? He is not saying that people who have never heard can be saved. No. He is referring to the Jews. They have the law, but having the law is not enough. You must be a doer of the law. This in no way is saying that people who have not heard can be saved.

At time it seems that Paul blends life here with eternity.

For example in Romans 2:

6He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.​

Yet in the next verses he addresses temporal living:

9There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11For God shows no partiality.​

The same occurs when we think of the doing and the law. We typically run to the doing as the old testiment sacrificial services, and the 613 Mitzvot (The 613 Mitzvot (Commandments))

However, the doing isn't the physical, but the doing of the submissive heart to God and His authority.

 

[MB]

No, but again you have shown you have no idea what people who you label Calvinists believe.

Oh yeah! I almost forgot since I do not accept Calvinist doctrine I don't understand it. i know enough to know that it is a heretical bunch of bull.
MB

 

[MartyF]

The whole post does not change his last statement at all.

Yeah, reading aged man's posts you are probably right. I was just hoping that Roby didn't actually mean that. That pretty much amounts to Universalism/salvation through works. I definitely don't believe that. In fact, that sounds more like Islam.

Oh well. Sorry about that.

 

[Alan Gross]

The only issue is infants who die. I've heard some calvinists say they believe all infants who die before they can comprehend the gospel cannot be saved. Others believe that only elect infants go to heaven, and are somehow saved without accepting the gospel. Others say some infants receive the gospel spiritually in some way and are saved. Others say all infants are the elect. Definitely no consensus.

Regarding adults, I believe Scripture is clear. They must seek and place their trust in the Gospel brought by a preacher to be saved.

All that said, if some Christians are confused about this, I'm not inclined to hit them with a heresy charge. I would rather just correct them.

You must be Born Again. (not, "you"; meaning this is what Jesus Said that WE KNOW).

That statement is True.

That is ONE WAY of Salvation, through Being Convicted of sin, which can be through The Gospel, alone, because "Jesus Dying for sin" sure is a Proclamation of The LAW, isn't it?

I believe it would serve up well to get that down pat.

That Jesus Said, "You must be Born Again".

...

An infant?

You must be Born Again.

Use our 'thinking' a second on this, like this.

"If God is ABLE to Bring MEEEEE Out of The Darkness I was in, that was Absolute."

I Had to Be Born Again.

My Unregenerant sinful state Had to Be Regenerated.

So, is God Big Enough to Give an infant Understanding and Save them, IF HE WANTS TO?

O.K., that should be O.K., with us.

What more do we know about it?

No a lot.

David said he 'could go be where' his baby was, who Had Been Judged with Death.

Where was that?

What's he mean?

What's he know?

John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeth's womb when he heard about Jesus.

Do lost (with a Spiritually Reality that is Dead to God's Spirit) babies 'leap' at the news of The Savior? a Spiritual Reality?

Was John the Baptist Saved? in the womb?

If he was, I say it was the Result of God Giving him The New Birth through Believing The Gospel.

How's that?

I don't have any way of knowing one way, or the other.

We KNOW: You must Be Born Again.

...

With the various 'guesses' and arguments from silence about 'infants' and whether they are, or are not, Brought into The Family of God, I would like to say that, if one is, they HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN.

For my part, I can't assume 'all infants are Saved', unless they are Born Again.

Infants Being 'Saved' some other way would be another Gospel.

Like just being assumed to be Saved.

Like, if NO ADULTS WERE ELECT, then BABIES WENT TO HEAVEN?

HOW ABOUT IF JESUS DID NOT LIVE A PERFECT LIFE and Died and was Buried, and Rose Again??

Do "all babies still go to Heaven"??

That's a weird one.

Neither can I say, automatically, that aborted babies, or any stillborn, or the baby of a Nation that was Being Judged, is "Saved".

Maybe.

That Realm is Up to God, isn't it?

The question of our Love is whether we LEAVE IT TO GOD,

and, Love God, regardless of His Eternal Purpose in Saving or not Saving any infant, all infants, or some Elect infants.

Infants Must Be Born Again.

No ReBirth, No Salvation, No Jesus Blood, No Resurrection = No Salvation.

...

The lost soul always is Brought by God to an Understanding and then Conviction of their sin against God and the Consequences of The Penalty they are Under, leaving them knowingly lost.

The soul Convicted that is Granted Repentance concerning that exact sin of their's, personally, that is also, logically Given Belief in The Good News, that they are Preached by The Instrumentality of The Holy Spirit Placing their soul Under The Eternal Word of God of The Gospel of Jesus Christ's Work of Accomplishing Salvation on their behalf, through His Perfect Life, Lived Righteously, Sacrificed in Death, Burying those sins that He Paid for, Away, and God Accepting His Payment, as a sinner's Substitute and Savior, BY RAISING JESUS FROM THE DEAD, is How God Saves every lost soul that has, is, or ever while be Saved.

Jesus is The Savior.

Lost souls are entirely divorced from God, Who is Spirit, in their Unregenerate, Natural Spiritually Dead State.

 

[tyndale1946]

You must be Born Again. (not, "you"; meaning this is what Jesus Said that WE KNOW).

That statement is True.

That is ONE WAY of Salvation, through Being Convicted of sin, which can be through The Gospel, alone, because "Jesus Dying for sin" sure is a Proclamation of The LAW, isn't it?

I believe it would serve up well to get that down pat.

That Jesus Said, "You must be Born Again".

...

An infant?

You must be Born Again.

Use our 'thinking' a second on this, like this.

"If God is ABLE to Bring MEEEEE Out of The Darkness I was in, that was Absolute."

I Had to Be Born Again.

My Unregenerant sinful state Had to Be Regenerated.

So, is God Big Enough to Give an infant Understanding and Save them, IF HE WANTS TO?

O.K., that should be O.K., with us.

What more do we know about it?

No a lot.

David said he 'could go be where' his baby was, who Had Been Judged with Death.

Where was that?

What's he mean?

What's he know?

John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeth's womb when he heard about Jesus.

Do lost (with a Spiritually Reality that is Dead to God's Spirit) babies 'leap' at the news of The Savior? a Spiritual Reality?

Was John the Baptist Saved? in the womb?

If he was, I say it was the Result of God Giving him The New Birth through Believing The Gospel.

How's that?

I don't have any way of knowing one way, or the other.

We KNOW: You must Be Born Again.

...

With the various 'guesses' and arguments from silence about 'infants' and whether they are, or are not, Brought into The Family of God, I would like to say that, if one is, they HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN.

For my part, I can't assume 'all infants are Saved', unless they are Born Again.

Infants Being 'Saved' some other way would be another Gospel.

Like just being assumed to be Saved.

Like, if NO ADULTS WERE ELECT, then BABIES WENT TO HEAVEN?

HOW ABOUT IF JESUS DID NOT LIVE A PERFECT LIFE and Died and was Buried, and Rose Again??

Do "all babies still go to Heaven"??

That's a weird one.

Neither can I say, automatically, that aborted babies, or any stillborn, or the baby of a Nation that was Being Judged, is "Saved".

Maybe.

That Realm is Up to God, isn't it?

The question of our Love is whether we LEAVE IT TO GOD,

and, Love God, regardless of His Eternal Purpose in Saving or not Saving any infant, all infants, or some Elect infants.

Infants Must Be Born Again.

No ReBirth, No Salvation, No Jesus Blood, No Resurrection = No Salvation.

...

The lost soul always is Brought by God to an Understanding and then Conviction of their sin against God and the Consequences of The Penalty they are Under, leaving them knowingly lost.

The soul Convicted that is Granted Repentance concerning that exact sin of their's, personally, that is also, logically Given Belief in The Good News, that they are Preached by The Instrumentality of The Holy Spirit Placing their soul Under The Eternal Word of God of The Gospel of Jesus Christ's Work of Accomplishing Salvation on their behalf, through His Perfect Life, Lived Righteously, Sacrificed in Death, Burying those sins that He Paid for, Away, and God Accepting His Payment, as a sinner's Substitute and Savior, BY RAISING JESUS FROM THE DEAD, is How God Saves every lost soul that has, is, or ever while be Saved.

Jesus is The Savior.

Lost souls are entirely divorced from God, Who is Spirit, in their Unregenerate, Natural Spiritually Dead State.

Brethren this Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist brother is only go to quote one scripture... Is Salvation in the WORD of God or the words of God?... Brother Glen

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[Calminian]

You must be Born Again. (not, "you"; meaning this is what Jesus Said that WE KNOW).

That statement is True.

That is ONE WAY of Salvation, through Being Convicted of sin, which can be through The Gospel, alone, because "Jesus Dying for sin" sure is a Proclamation of The LAW, isn't it?

I believe it would serve up well to get that down pat.

That Jesus Said, "You must be Born Again".

...

An infant?

You must be Born Again.

Use our 'thinking' a second on this, like this.

"If God is ABLE to Bring MEEEEE Out of The Darkness I was in, that was Absolute."

I Had to Be Born Again.

My Unregenerant sinful state Had to Be Regenerated.

So, is God Big Enough to Give an infant Understanding and Save them, IF HE WANTS TO?

O.K., that should be O.K., with us.

What more do we know about it?

No a lot.

David said he 'could go be where' his baby was, who Had Been Judged with Death.

Where was that?

What's he mean?

What's he know?

John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeth's womb when he heard about Jesus.

Do lost (with a Spiritually Reality that is Dead to God's Spirit) babies 'leap' at the news of The Savior? a Spiritual Reality?

Was John the Baptist Saved? in the womb?

If he was, I say it was the Result of God Giving him The New Birth through Believing The Gospel.

How's that?

I don't have any way of knowing one way, or the other.

We KNOW: You must Be Born Again.

...

With the various 'guesses' and arguments from silence about 'infants' and whether they are, or are not, Brought into The Family of God, I would like to say that, if one is, they HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN.

For my part, I can't assume 'all infants are Saved', unless they are Born Again.

Infants Being 'Saved' some other way would be another Gospel.

Like just being assumed to be Saved.

Like, if NO ADULTS WERE ELECT, then BABIES WENT TO HEAVEN?

HOW ABOUT IF JESUS DID NOT LIVE A PERFECT LIFE and Died and was Buried, and Rose Again??

Do "all babies still go to Heaven"??

That's a weird one.

Neither can I say, automatically, that aborted babies, or any stillborn, or the baby of a Nation that was Being Judged, is "Saved".

Maybe.

That Realm is Up to God, isn't it?

The question of our Love is whether we LEAVE IT TO GOD,

and, Love God, regardless of His Eternal Purpose in Saving or not Saving any infant, all infants, or some Elect infants.

Infants Must Be Born Again.

No ReBirth, No Salvation, No Jesus Blood, No Resurrection = No Salvation.

...

The lost soul always is Brought by God to an Understanding and then Conviction of their sin against God and the Consequences of The Penalty they are Under, leaving them knowingly lost.

The soul Convicted that is Granted Repentance concerning that exact sin of their's, personally, that is also, logically Given Belief in The Good News, that they are Preached by The Instrumentality of The Holy Spirit Placing their soul Under The Eternal Word of God of The Gospel of Jesus Christ's Work of Accomplishing Salvation on their behalf, through His Perfect Life, Lived Righteously, Sacrificed in Death, Burying those sins that He Paid for, Away, and God Accepting His Payment, as a sinner's Substitute and Savior, BY RAISING JESUS FROM THE DEAD, is How God Saves every lost soul that has, is, or ever while be Saved.

Jesus is The Savior.

Lost souls are entirely divorced from God, Who is Spirit, in their Unregenerate, Natural Spiritually Dead State.

So faith is unnecessary for salvation?

 

[Alan Gross]

So faith is unnecessary for salvation?

Faith is not possible without Repentance.

Repentance is not possible without Conviction.

Conviction is not possible without The Word of The Lord.

Spirit-Enabled Conviction of the lost is by The Holy Spirit Baring Witness to The Truths regarding God's Revelation of personal sin against their Creator, to the specific unbeliever.

"Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures."
James 1:18.

"having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,"
I Peter 1:23.

1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel
which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2. "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4. "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
I Corinthians 15:1-4.

Salient observations from these verses in bold.

God's Children are Born Again, through The Eternal Word of The Living God.

The New Birth, from Above, involves Holy Spirit Inspired Conviction of sin,
and Holy Spirit Repentance of that personal sin,

and Faith in The Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as Payment for their personal sins, as "Jesus Gave His Life A Ransome, for many".

"they shall call His Name, Jesus, for He Shall Save His people, from their sins."
Matthew 1:21

After Spirit-Enabled Conviction of their sins, God Saves a lost soul by Granting and Giving them Repentance and Faith.

Faith Takes Place as The Activity of ALMIGHTY God, when Jesus Saves a lost soul, from their sins, through The Word of God and The Holy Spirit.

Jesus Died The Just for the unjust.

The Holy Spirit Creates a Newly Regenerated Creature in The New Birth.

God the Father Accomplishes The Salvation of a lost soul and Imputes Repentance and Faith into them, as a Gift of The Divine Nature, to Bestow ETERNAL LIFE.

Jesus is The Savior.

 

[Calminian]

Faith is not possible without Repentance.

Repentance is not possible without Conviction.

Conviction is not possible without The Word of The Lord.....

Then, what happens to infants who die?

 

[agedman]

You must be Born Again. (not, "you"; meaning this is what Jesus Said that WE KNOW).

That statement is True.

That is ONE WAY of Salvation, through Being Convicted of sin, which can be through The Gospel, alone, because "Jesus Dying for sin" sure is a Proclamation of The LAW, isn't it?

I believe it would serve up well to get that down pat.

That Jesus Said, "You must be Born Again".

...

An infant?

You must be Born Again.

Use our 'thinking' a second on this, like this.

"If God is ABLE to Bring MEEEEE Out of The Darkness I was in, that was Absolute."

I Had to Be Born Again.

My Unregenerant sinful state Had to Be Regenerated.

So, is God Big Enough to Give an infant Understanding and Save them, IF HE WANTS TO?

O.K., that should be O.K., with us.

What more do we know about it?

No a lot.

David said he 'could go be where' his baby was, who Had Been Judged with Death.

Where was that?

What's he mean?

What's he know?

John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeth's womb when he heard about Jesus.

Do lost (with a Spiritually Reality that is Dead to God's Spirit) babies 'leap' at the news of The Savior? a Spiritual Reality?

Was John the Baptist Saved? in the womb?

If he was, I say it was the Result of God Giving him The New Birth through Believing The Gospel.

How's that?

I don't have any way of knowing one way, or the other.

We KNOW: You must Be Born Again.

...

With the various 'guesses' and arguments from silence about 'infants' and whether they are, or are not, Brought into The Family of God, I would like to say that, if one is, they HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN.

For my part, I can't assume 'all infants are Saved', unless they are Born Again.

Infants Being 'Saved' some other way would be another Gospel.

Like just being assumed to be Saved.

Like, if NO ADULTS WERE ELECT, then BABIES WENT TO HEAVEN?

HOW ABOUT IF JESUS DID NOT LIVE A PERFECT LIFE and Died and was Buried, and Rose Again??

Do "all babies still go to Heaven"??

That's a weird one.

Neither can I say, automatically, that aborted babies, or any stillborn, or the baby of a Nation that was Being Judged, is "Saved".

Maybe.

That Realm is Up to God, isn't it?

The question of our Love is whether we LEAVE IT TO GOD,

and, Love God, regardless of His Eternal Purpose in Saving or not Saving any infant, all infants, or some Elect infants.

Infants Must Be Born Again.

No ReBirth, No Salvation, No Jesus Blood, No Resurrection = No Salvation.

...

The lost soul always is Brought by God to an Understanding and then Conviction of their sin against God and the Consequences of The Penalty they are Under, leaving them knowingly lost.

The soul Convicted that is Granted Repentance concerning that exact sin of their's, personally, that is also, logically Given Belief in The Good News, that they are Preached by The Instrumentality of The Holy Spirit Placing their soul Under The Eternal Word of God of The Gospel of Jesus Christ's Work of Accomplishing Salvation on their behalf, through His Perfect Life, Lived Righteously, Sacrificed in Death, Burying those sins that He Paid for, Away, and God Accepting His Payment, as a sinner's Substitute and Savior, BY RAISING JESUS FROM THE DEAD, is How God Saves every lost soul that has, is, or ever while be Saved.

Jesus is The Savior.

Lost souls are entirely divorced from God, Who is Spirit, in their Unregenerate, Natural Spiritually Dead State.

Faith is not possible without Repentance.

Repentance is not possible without Conviction.

Conviction is not possible without The Word of The Lord.

Spirit-Enabled Conviction of the lost is by The Holy Spirit Baring Witness to The Truths regarding God's Revelation of personal sin against their Creator, to the specific unbeliever.

"Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures."
James 1:18.

"having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,"
I Peter 1:23.

1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel
which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2. "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4. "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
I Corinthians 15:1-4.

Salient observations from these verses in bold.

God's Children are Born Again, through The Eternal Word of The Living God.

The New Birth, from Above, involves Holy Spirit Inspired Conviction of sin,
and Holy Spirit Repentance of that personal sin,

and Faith in The Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as Payment for their personal sins, as "Jesus Gave His Life A Ransome, for many".

"they shall call His Name, Jesus, for He Shall Save His people, from their sins."
Matthew 1:21

After Spirit-Enabled Conviction of their sins, God Saves a lost soul by Granting and Giving them Repentance and Faith.

Faith Takes Place as The Activity of ALMIGHTY God, when Jesus Saves a lost soul, from their sins, through The Word of God and The Holy Spirit.

Jesus Died The Just for the unjust.

The Holy Spirit Creates a Newly Regenerated Creature in The New Birth.

God the Father Accomplishes The Salvation of a lost soul and Imputes Repentance and Faith into them, as a Gift of The Divine Nature, to Bestow ETERNAL LIFE.

Jesus is The Savior.

The original post from another thread, in which one line was extracted and in context does not resent a problem, yet out of context does, does not dispute either of these posts.

However there is some areas that need to be challenged for accuracy.

1) The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, NOT the Word. The unbeliever can read the Scriptures their whole life and it not bring conviction. That is basic doctrine .

2) Every redeemed before Moses was redeemed in like manner as all who were contemporary and from the time of Moses.
“By GRACE are you saved.”

3) All redeemed of all redeemed were born again, such does not dispute the original OP in which this thread seeks to dispute.

 

[agedman]

If there is a group that rejects the original Post of which the OP of this thread takes issue with one sentence, it would seem that that group would be the non-Calvinists, not the Calvinistic thinkers.

The typical Calvinist would be grounded enough to realize the broad truth Paul spoke, but the non-Calvinistic thinking would be stumbling over the principle of the freedom of the will to the point they would totally be consumed in disputing against the high Sovereign position.

A few position points:

1) Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the WORD OF GOD.
Paul presents that the Decalogue (law) is written upon the heart of every person.
2) John 1 states that light is given indiscriminately to every person (the world), but every person rejects (turns away) from the light (the Word, that written upon the heart of every person).
3) Repentance (means to turn around) is presented in Scripture as evidence one has turned back to the light. The “doers” have repented and continues in repentance grieving of their lack of doing. Only God can direct the Holy Spirit in whom to bring conviction that results in repentance unto salvation. All others are merely carried by worldly sorrow.
4) Those that dwell in the light are given the authority to become a child of God. (John 1). Such will be granted by God’s Grace that measure of Faith as God determines. These were elected and predestined form the beginning as God’s Word declares.
5) It is with the very core of being changed that one believes and from such belief one cannot help but express that belief in words and actions. “My sheep hear...” “Other sheep I have....”
6) There is no innate human freedom of will or expression that can accomplish the work of God. Salvation and who is redeemed is totally at the discretion and decree of God.
7) Each of these points are based upon Scriptures in which the casual all the way to high (extreme) Calvinistic thinker will agree.

 

[Alan Gross]

Then, what happens to infants who die?

They Believe and Have Faith in Santa Claus
and they and All Dogs Go to Heaven.

 

[Alan Gross]

The original post from another thread, in which one line was extracted and in context does not resent a problem, yet out of context does, does not dispute either of these posts.

However there is some areas that need to be challenged for accuracy.

1) The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, NOT the Word. The unbeliever can read the Scriptures their whole life and it not bring conviction. That is basic doctrine .

2) Every redeemed before Moses was redeemed in like manner as all who were contemporary and from the time of Moses.
“By GRACE are you saved.”

3) All redeemed of all redeemed were born again, such does not dispute the original OP in which this thread seeks to dispute.

If the same quality of 'Belief' and 'Faith' are attributed to 'Being Saved', as The 'Belief' and 'Faith' of a 2 or 3-year-old, in 'Believing' and 'having Faith' in Santa Claus, is what you're talking about, yeah.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ, nor The Eternal Word of God, Nor The Holy Spirit, are needed to 'Believe' and 'have Faith', in Santa Claus.

In fact, an individual would not even have the need to be Convicted of their personal sin, before Almighty God.

So, 'Believing' and 'having Faith', in that way, specifically, just like a child 'Believing' in Santa Claus, or 'having Faith' that Santa Claus would come and bring their little flesh a toy, happens ALL THE TIME, in Christian religious circles and associations.

Those individuals are not the ones to point to, as Authorities in The Things of God, or 'Salvation', by ANY MEANS.

They haven't dealt with their guilt or sin debt before An Angry God.

They are just 'Believers', without God, or Jesus, or The Holy Spirit, and that's why they don't talk about sin, Righteousness, and Judgment that The Holy Spirit Has Come to Convict lost souls of.

Santa Claus does exactly as much good for them as their brand of carnal 'Belief', and 'Faith'.

Thus, no, they have no use for The Gospel of Jesus Christ and could care less, although that is an Eternally Fatal position for their soul to be in, regardless of their (false) profession of 'Faith'..

WHEN THERE IS NO:

Spirit-Enabled Conviction of the lost soul by The Holy Spirit Bearing Witness to The Truths regarding God's Revelation of personal sin against their Creator, to the specific unbeliever,

they will read Scriptures like these, below, and say, "poo-poo on them".

"Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures."
James 1:18.

"having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,"
I Peter 1:23.

1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel
which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2. "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4. "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
I Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[Alan Gross]

Paul presents that the Decalogue (law) is written upon the heart of every person.
2) John 1 states that light is given indiscriminately to every person (the world), but every person rejects (turns away) from the light (the Word, that written upon the heart of every person).

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Romans 1:20.


John 1:5 "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

John 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

"it is best therefore to understand these words of the light of nature, and reason, which Christ, as the word, and Creator and light of men, gives to every man that is born into the world; and which serves to detect the Quakers' notion of the light within, which every man has, and is no other than the light of a natural conscience; and shows how much men, even natural men, are obliged to Christ, and how great a person he is, and how deserving of praise, honour, and glory." Gill

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Romans 1:20.

When it comes to Church Truth, other religions would do good to know at least as much as Quakers, but from this thing of 'everyman' having something Communicated by God, within their soul, is not what we see there, unless we just make junk up.


"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Romans 1:20.

 

[MB]

Where do we have any support in Scripture for this? We don't. Is this not heresy?

It's exactly what I have heard from Calvinist here on BB. It's interesting that you would call your fellow believer's heretical.
. What happens when a man is elect according to Calvinist. And who never hears the gospel. Don't you claim he is saved any way because of his election?.
LOL
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

It's exactly what I have heard from Calvinist here on BB. It's interesting that you would call your fellow believer's heretical.

Where? Show one single post that claims this.

What happens when a man is elect according to Calvinist. And who never hears the gospel. Don't you claim he is saved any way because of his election?.

If someone does not hear the Gospel and dies without it, they obviously are not among the elect.