You can be saved without the Gospel???

[Alan Gross]

We are legally justified by the blood of Christ, in God's justice system. Faith justifies us (declares us saved) in our conscience. IE, justification by faith is assurance of salvation. It comes to us as active believers.


Justification by works is our declaration of righteousness in the eyes of others.


So gospel means. There have been Baptists in the old days who believed it. But even those who did believed regeneration and conversion were separate things, but that they happened at the same time.


But notice John 3:8 - the Spirit moves as does the wind, and men have nothing to do with the wind. Also John 5, in which JEsus says we're born again by His words, just like the dead rise in the last day by His words.


So there are several examples in the Bible of people being converted. In Acts, notice how they're all people who were hungry and searching. Cornelius is the greatest example. God had cleansed him yet he was not yet a followed.


There are a few passage that some use to teach gospel means, like the passage in James about being begotten by the word. But that passage seems to be referring to the early church being the product of Jesus' preaching.


(firstfruits of them that believe...ie the early church)


The passage in Peter about being begotten by the Word likely has reference to being born again by Jesus' words, not preachers words about Jesus.


We hear the voice of the son of God and live.

You are ashamed of The Gospel of Christ.

As Gospel 'means',
or 'gospel regeneration'.

Although, The Bible Says,

"for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
Romans 1:16
...

That's all.

That is you position.

...

That position is Exactly, 100%, Anti-Christ.

...

Stick with, "the wind bloweth where it listeth", and confess that that is what you know about The Gospel, which is you don't know anything, and you want that verse to give you permission to brag on your pure ignorance, while Satan commands you, "do not preach The Gospel".

Totally perfect disobedience to Jesus.

Bearing absolute false witness.

Jumping straight into a whale's mouth.

Blasphemous.

 

[kyredneck]

But let me ask you this, do you have to believe on the name of Christ or not?

And for you, do you believe evangelism is necessary or not?

Now who's doing the misrepresentation?

 

[Reformed1689]

Now who's doing the misrepresentation?

Asking a question is impossible to be a misrepresentation. Why did you not answer?

 

[kyredneck]

You can be saved without the Gospel???

Correct the paraphrase if I'm wrong:

"You can go to heaven without the Gospel???"

That's what you're really asking, right?

 

[PB Brother Tony]

Ephesians 2:8-9 saved by grace through faith.

True but let’s look a little deeper:


Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Our “faith” and “good works” (one being our faith since we do these things by our faith) were “before ordained”.


Also!


Let’s look a few verses earlier:


Ephesians 2:1 KJV
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


You notice something?


We’re “quickened” (made alive) by the Holy Ghost WAY before it says anything about our “faith”.


Back to Romans 8:


Romans 8:29-30 KJV
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


ALL GOD, not man. Not even our “faith” is mentioned.


How can we believe in ANYTHING when we’re spiritually dead?


AGAIN!


The unregenerate man does not seek after God. The cross is foolishness to him.


A person “believes” because the new birth has already taken place. Consider Cornelius.

 

[Reformed1689]

True but let’s look a little deeper:


Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Our “faith” and “good works” (one being our faith since we do these things by our faith) were “before ordained”.


Also!


Let’s look a few verses earlier:


Ephesians 2:1 KJV
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


You notice something?


We’re “quickened” (made alive) by the Holy Ghost WAY before it says anything about our “faith”.


Back to Romans 8:


Romans 8:29-30 KJV
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


ALL GOD, not man. Not even our “faith” is mentioned.


How can we believe in ANYTHING when we’re spiritually dead?


AGAIN!


The unregenerate man does not seek after God. The cross is foolishness to him.


A person “believes” because the new birth has already taken place. Consider Cornelius.

I am not arguing against regeneration being a work of the spirit. NOR am I arguing against the fact that regeneration precedes faith. What I AM arguing against is that faith is not required and that we are saved without that faith that is given by the spirit which you are saying. And what is our faith in? The work and person and Lordship of Jesus Christ aka the Gospel. You cannot be saved without knowing and placing faith in Christ. Do you deny this? If so, you preach a false gospel.

 

[PB Brother Tony]

You are ashamed of The Gospel of Christ.

As Gospel 'means',
or 'gospel regeneration'.

Although, The Bible Says,

"for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
Romans 1:16
...

That's all.

That is you position.

...

That position is Exactly, 100%, Anti-Christ.

...

Stick with, "the wind bloweth where it listeth", and confess that that is what you know about The Gospel, which is you don't know anything, and you want that verse to give you permission to brag on your pure ignorance, while Satan commands you, "do not preach The Gospel".

Totally perfect disobedience to Jesus.

Bearing absolute false witness.

Jumping straight into a whale's mouth.

Blasphemous.

You keep saying that but I don’t think you know what it means!


We’re currently speaking about Christ’s finished work right? That’s part of the Gospel! So how am I antichrist when I’m making proclamation that we’re saved by Christ?


When a person answers questions with questions and has to hurl insults it shows immaturity and a lack of being able to explain one’s own thoughts.

 

[PB Brother Tony]

I am not arguing against regeneration being a work of the spirit. NOR am I arguing against the fact that regeneration precedes faith. What I AM arguing against is that faith is not required and that we are saved without that faith that is given by the spirit which you are saying. And what is our faith in? The work and person and Lordship of Jesus Christ aka the Gospel. You cannot be saved without knowing and placing faith in Christ. Do you deny this? If so, you preach a false gospel.

You believe in works!


You’re claiming that regeneration comes from the Spirit yet claim that man has to do something and that something is believe.


Classic works.


Grace means that we do NOTHING so once you add a “but” you’re contradicting your own statement.


Does a heir to a throne have to know that they’re an heir or are they an heir regardless.


Does a person with a disease have to know that they’re sick to be sick.


I think that you believe that regeneration and conversion are the same, that’s something that the vast majority of Calvinists err in.


I’ll point out Cornelius again.


Cornelius did the things of a regenerated person before the Gospel arrived. If the Gospel causes regeneration then how was he able to do the things that the child of God does?


Simple answer!


Cornelius was converted (not regenerated) once Peter stepped on the scene.

 

[Reformed1689]

You believe in works!


You’re claiming that regeneration comes from the Spirit yet claim that man has to do something and that something is believe.


Classic works.


Grace means that we do NOTHING so once you add a “but” you’re contradicting your own statement.


Does a heir to a throne have to know that they’re an heir or are they an heir regardless.


Does a person with a disease have to know that they’re sick to be sick.


I think that you believe that regeneration and conversion are the same, that’s something that the vast majority of Calvinists err in.


I’ll point out Cornelius again.


Cornelius did the things of a regenerated person before the Gospel arrived. If the Gospel causes regeneration then how was he able to do the things that the child of God does?


Simple answer!


Cornelius was converted (not regenerated) once Peter stepped on the scene.

Again, you are ignoring Scripture if you think faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation. You are a hyper-Calvinist which is unbiblical. Genuine faith, which is a gift of the Spirit, is not a work. But it is necessary in the Ordo Salutis.

 

[kyredneck]

NOR am I arguing against the fact that regeneration precedes faith.

How many nanoseconds do you allow between the two? @Reformed says it's not even one nanosecond. You agree? That means there's only about two nanoseconds difference between Monergestic Soteriology and Synergism.

 

[Reformed1689]

I think that you believe that regeneration and conversion are the same, that’s something that the vast majority of Calvinists err in.

No I don't, but thanks for falsely assuming. You know what they say about assuming. You are outspoken but way off base in your hyper-calvinism. I recommend you read ALL of Scripture. And while you are at it, learn to evangelize. I guess you probably think that isn't necessary right?

 

[Reformed1689]

How many nanoseconds do you allow between the two? @Reformed says it's not even one nanosecond. You agree? That means there's only about two nanoseconds difference between Monergestic Soteriology and Synergism.

I would agree that is the most likely scenario. But you guys are saying faith is not necessary for Salvation unless I have completely misunderstood. And, if I have completely misunderstood, you do a HORRIBLE job at explaining your position.

 

[PB Brother Tony]

No I don't, but thanks for falsely assuming. You know what they say about assuming. You are outspoken but way off base in your hyper-calvinism. I recommend you read ALL of Scripture. And while you are at it, learn to evangelize. I guess you probably think that isn't necessary right?

Why would it be unnecessary? Are you assuming now what we believe?


Assuming = Two way street


Of course evangelism is great.


Regeneration is monergistic since God does not need us but conversion is synergistic.


Romans 10:14 KJV
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


This goes back to Cornelius. He was born again but Peter showed up and conversion took place by the preaching.


That still happens today.

 

[kyredneck]

But you guys are saying faith is not necessary for Salvation unless I have completely misunderstood.

Faith is absolutely necessary for our salvation [read deliverance] in this temporal realm. Think on this:

16 Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4

Your position begs the question, at what point was Timothy and his flock finally going to get 'saved'?

 

[PB Brother Tony]

Again, you are ignoring Scripture if you think faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation. You are a hyper-Calvinist which is unbiblical. Genuine faith, which is a gift of the Spirit, is not a work. But it is necessary in the Ordo Salutis.

Not true!


Here’s the order of salvation (oh sorry “Ordo Salutis”):



Romans 8:29-30 KJV
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.




Oh look! Man nor his faith is mentioned....

 

[Reformed1689]

Faith is absolutely necessary for our salvation [read deliverance] in this temporal realm. Think on this:

16 Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4

Your position begs the question, at what point was Timothy and his flock finally going to get 'saved'?

Ok, at this point I have no idea what you are babbling about. Your words contradict your other posts that seem to say faith is not necessary. You are not clear.

 

[Reformed1689]

Romans 10:14 KJV
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

What does this have to do with this topic?

 

[Reformed1689]

Not true!


Here’s the order of salvation (oh sorry “Ordo Salutis”):



Romans 8:29-30 KJV
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.




Oh look! Man nor his faith is mentioned....

Again, you are ignoring Scripture.

 

[Reformed]

Again, you are ignoring Scripture if you think faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation. You are a hyper-Calvinist which is unbiblical. Genuine faith, which is a gift of the Spirit, is not a work. But it is necessary in the Ordo Salutis.

How a Primitive Baptist can rip Romans 4 out of their Bible with nary a pang of conscience never fails to amuse me. They then have the gall to accuse those who hold to a Monergistic/Reformed soteriology of a works-based salvation! Even our free will, Arminian brothers do not do that. Some of them are so obtuse that it is impossible to engage with them in a cogent conversation. David, if you can make headway with them, God bless you!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[agedman]

Ephesians 2:8-9 saved by grace through faith.

Certainly, through faith that was not your to begin with, but such is the gift of God.

God will grant, without merit, to those of His choosing, salvation.

There apparently are some on this thread who would present that ONLY those who are given the knowledge of the gospel are able to be redeemed.

But then, that removes redemption from the total authority of God, and places it into the hands and whims of people.

Paul, knowing this presentation is error, and knowing that it is from the teaching of Jews who rely upon the Law, spends time expressing how such thinking is incorrectly applied.