You cannot be pro-life and anti-refugee!

[Salty]

My apologies for not reading through the whole thread.

Has someone already pointed out the logical fallacy with the thread title? Namely, for the thread title to be true, and be relevant to "pro-life," that it must be proven that refugees are facing death? If such cannot be proven, then "anti-refugee" is not equivalent to "anti-life."

FTR - I posted the thread title based on the signature of another poster- as indicated in the OP.

 

[Don]

FTR - I posted the thread title based on the signature of another poster- as indicated in the OP.

I understood that. My apologies if it seemed directed toward you. I'd have been better if I identified it as "signature line."

 

[Salty]

I understood that. My apologies if it seemed directed toward you. I'd have been better if I identified it as "signature line."

No problem - just wanted to make sure I had properly clarified my statement.

Besides I have been know to have make one or two mistakes on this board in the past 15 years.

 

[Jedi Knight]

"You cannot be pro-life and anti-refugee!"

This is a signature for one of our BB members.

Do you agree with this statement?

Open for discussion

Nope!

 

[Calminian]

....In biblical Israel, immigrants weren't allowed to buy land. And, immigrants would be executed or deported if they failed to abide by the standards of the Law of Moses (Judaism). God told the Israelites to be good neighbors and to treat foreigners kindly, but at the same time, Israelites were forbidden to surrender land or culture to immigrants.

Thank you for putting that so succinctly and concisely. Christian interest and involvement in politics does not end at abortion and marriage. We should fight those battles, but also fight against open borders, globalism and multiculturalism. God separated the nations for a reason. God established separate national cultures for a reason. God established patriotic duties such as paying taxes and paying honor for a reason. The Church is so confused today. It's almost mind boggling to comprehend how far into political liberalism so many "conservative" Churches have wandered.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Beware of those who try to guilt you into supporting wide-open immigration.

I have not seen ANYONE advocate "wide-open immigration," but thank you for the warning. If I see that, I will be cautious.

They're hostile to your Christianity.

I do not possess "Christianity." Christ possesses me. Therefore, my "Christianity" cannot be threatened.

If your neighbor's house is falling apart, he needs to fix it, maybe with your help. But, you have no obligation to let your neighbor move into your house and take it over because he's unwilling to fix his own home. On the contrary, you have the obligation to preserve the quality of your home for your family, which is done by not allowing your neighbor to move in.

Nice attempt at an analogy, but when we are talking about refugees, it is not usually something as simple as "fixing" their country. Often there are people in power who will either actively kill the refugee or will allow the refugees to be killed by others without providing protection - if there is a government at all. For instance, my mother and her family faced a situation where the government in their home country turned Communist and they faced certain rape and subsequent execution if they returned - and they were being pressured to return immediately by Western powers. It is naive to the extreme to think that small groups of people can just go back and "fix" their country.

In biblical Israel, immigrants weren't allowed to buy land. And, immigrants would be executed or deported if they failed to abide by the standards of the Law of Moses (Judaism). God told the Israelites to be good neighbors and to treat foreigners kindly, but at the same time, Israelites were forbidden to surrender land or culture to immigrants.

Simply put, we are not biblical Israel. Moreover, God has not made an covenant with the United States, nor established the specific parameters of our culture.

 

[Baptist Believer]

God separated the nations for a reason. God established separate national cultures for a reason.

One of the major themes of the New Testament is that God has undone all of the distinctions created at the Tower of Babel when He confused the languages. Part of the picture at the day of Pentecost was that suddenly languages were not a barrier anymore. Even a casual look through the New Testament will show that Jewish and non-Jewish people from all nations have equal standing in Christ.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28

 

[Calminian]

I...I do not possess "Christianity." Christ possesses me. Therefore, my "Christianity" cannot be threatened.....

Of course it can. Any Christian can fall into false doctrine, especially when you hold the mindset above that somehow you are invincible. You are not, and the very notion that you, are puts you in danger. Becoming like Christ is hard work. It is the work of God, but also the work of man, which was given to us by God.

 

[Calminian]

...Simply put, we are not biblical Israel. Moreover, God has not made an covenant with the United States, nor established the specific parameters of our culture.

Nor was Brother making the claim. But the principle by which God governs nations has not changed. God establish the nations before the mosaic law and called on authorities to protect those nations, with the sword if necessary (Romans 13). Nothing has changed. When migrants enter nations they ask permission and state their business. Israel did this during their time of wandering. To say the the US has no right to vet migrants is not only unbiblical, it's foolish.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Of course it can. Any Christian can fall into false doctrine, especially when you hold the mindset above that somehow you are invincible. You are not, and the very notion that you, are puts you in danger.

The context of my comments was not about false doctrine. Moreover, I made no claim that I am invincible.

What I am saying is that I don't look to culture to determine how I live my life in faithfulness to God.

 

[Calminian]

One of the major themes of the New Testament is that God has undone all of the distinctions created at the Tower of Babel when He confused the languages. Part of the picture at the day of Pentecost was that suddenly languages were not a barrier anymore. ...

This also is false doctrine. Language barriers still exist. At pentecost God created a miraculous bridge for the gospel, but this was limited to the gospel. Language barriers have not gone away, if you've noticed, and I don't know anyone today that has the gift of languages like we saw at pentecost.

We know Satan is at work trying to unite the nations, but this will not happen in a good sense until Christ returns. Until then we heed the words of Paul in Romans 13 which preaches nationalism and patriotism.

 

[Calminian]

..What I am saying is that I don't look to culture to determine how I live my life in faithfulness to God.

And yet you are. You have fallen into political correctness and set aside biblical examples of national sovereignty and the rule of immigration law. The system you argue for is an open borders system.

 

[Crabtownboy]

What I am saying is that I don't look to culture to determine how I live my life in faithfulness to God.

Good, that is good. Far too many Christians, especially ones who call themselves conservative confuse culture with Christianity.

 

[Calminian]

....Nice attempt at an analogy, but when we are talking about refugees, it is not usually something as simple as "fixing" their country. Often there are people in power who will either actively kill the refugee or will allow the refugees to be killed by others without providing protection - if there is a government at all. For instance, my mother and her family faced a situation where the government in their home country turned Communist and they faced certain rape and subsequent execution if they returned - and they were being pressured to return immediately by Western powers. It is naive to the extreme to think that small groups of people can just go back and "fix" their country.....

Yes, this is a sad story of the Fall, but irrelevant. Governing authorities have a responsibility to their on land first. Paul discusses this in Roans 13, punish the evil and minister to the innocent. If we know terrorists are attempting to infiltrate refugees, it's our duty to put strong vetting measures in place. If this means entrance is slowed, so be it. Government must do it's job and open borders is just the opposite of this.

 

[Baptist Believer]

But the principle by which God governs nations has not changed. God establish the nations before the mosaic law and called on authorities to protect those nations, with the sword if necessary (Romans 13).

But there is a dramatic shift in the New Testament between God's people Israel (which is not ethnically-oriented - includes only the people who have the faith of Abraham) and the kingdoms of the world. All of the kingdoms of the world are under God's judgement and will eventually be destroyed in favor of God's Kingdom.

At the same time, that means we should be good citizens of whatever political structure we find ourselves in, but we should remember that we owe no devotion to political structures and governments when they undermine our calling in God's Kingdom. When there are conflicts, we go with what God has to say.

To say the the US has no right to vet migrants is not only unbiblical, it's foolish.

No one is saying this.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Government must do it's job and open borders is just the opposite of this.

Name ONE person who is advocating "open borders."

 

[Calminian]

But there is a dramatic shift in the New Testament between God's people Israel (which is not ethnically-oriented - includes only the people who have the faith of Abraham) and the kingdoms of the world. All of the kingdoms of the world are under God's judgement and will eventually be destroyed in favor of God's Kingdom.

God's people, the Church, are not Israel. The Church is not a nation, never was. It's a community of believers living in other nations. We have Church laws and bylaws, but we are not a governing community with national laws, a police force and soldiers. That is still left in the hands of the nations we reside in. And these nations are to endure with the sword as a means to keep order and peace.

At the same time, that means we should be good citizens of whatever political structure we find ourselves in, but we should remember that we owe no devotion to political structures and governments when they undermine our calling in God's Kingdom. When there are conflicts, we go with what God has to say..

Ah but we do, by dear BB, we do. I realize many Christians aren't aware of this, but we owe big time to the governments of our lands.

Rom. 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.​

We owe our nation taxes, customs, fear and honor. They are miniseries to us, given to us by God, who established them back at Babel. Nations are a gift to us, much like parents are a gift to us. They're never perfect, but we honor to the best of our ability, and we respect their authority, part of which is defending our borders and protecting us from evil doers.

 

[Calminian]

Name ONE person who is advocating "open borders."

My goodness, watch the news. We just had 3 judges tell us we can't vet refugees. I watched Jorge Ramos last night on Fox advocating for illegal immigrants.

If you believe illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay, you are advocating open borders.

 

[Baptist Believer]

We just had 3 judges tell us we can't vet refugees.

It's clear you didn't read the decision. They did nothing of the sort.

If you believe illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay, you are advocating open borders.

No, Words mean things. One can be an advocate of amnesty or a path to citizenship, but that's not the same thing as open borders.

 

[Baptist Believer]

God's people, the Church, are not Israel.

I disagree. That's a doctrinal question and I obviously understand the New Testament differently than you.

The Church is not a nation, never was.

Not an earthly nation, but it is part of the Kingdom of God.

I realize many Christians aren't aware of this, but we owe big time to the governments of our lands.

I am quite conversant with Romans 13.

We owe our nation taxes, customs, fear and honor. They are miniseries to us, given to us by God, who established them back at Babel. Nations are a gift to us, much like parents are a gift to us. They're never perfect, but we honor to the best of our ability, and we respect their authority, part of which is defending our borders and protecting us from evil doers.

But part of being the Kingdom of God - and good citizens - is petitioning the government to reconsider current policies and to make better policy.