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You may know (absolutely) ye have eternal life
- Thread starter steaver
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Here are just a few examples of present participles in Romans:DHK said:
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Young's Literal Translation
and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Young's Literal Translation
For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing,
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Young's Literal Translation
for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich to all those calling upon Him,
As I just showed, there is no difference. Would you now agree?DHK said:
Paul would not think so:DHK said:
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Rom. 10:14
I have never said faith is a work. The fact that it is not a work is what makes it able to be a condition, for our salvation is not of works. Faith in Christ is the ultimate "non-work".DHK said:
Trustitl:
"Faith in Christ is the ultimate "non-work"."
GE:
There is no such thing as a 'non-work'. What does the 'un-believer' do? What is 'dis-belief'? They are acts = works of men.
In fact, faith is the ultimate saving work of God's grace in us without which believing = doing = working, there is none saved. It (again I say) is no diminishing of Faith as Grace; it is the Divine Realisation of Grace through Faith.
"Faith in Christ is the ultimate "non-work"."
GE:
There is no such thing as a 'non-work'. What does the 'un-believer' do? What is 'dis-belief'? They are acts = works of men.
In fact, faith is the ultimate saving work of God's grace in us without which believing = doing = working, there is none saved. It (again I say) is no diminishing of Faith as Grace; it is the Divine Realisation of Grace through Faith.
Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.trustitl said:
It is unconditional. You have redefined "condition" to fit your own model or theology. A condition is a work. "If you do so and so, then I will give you thus and thus." Therein is the condition. God does not demand anything for the free gift of salvation. The RCC teaches that God demands the work of baptism for salvation. This is not true. There are no works, no conditions to fulfilled to receive the gift of salvation. Jesus paid it all. One must only receive it by faith. Neither of those verbs (receiving and believing (by faith) are works. They are not rightly considered conditions, and do not fall under the definition of condition. A condition is a work.
If you send me an email I will explain this to you again (maybe).
Sending an email is a work. It is also the condition, of me explaining of me explaining this all over again to you. But salvation is unconditional, no works, no conditions attached. BTW, you have the choice whether to believe me or not concerning me sending an email to me. Your belief obviously is not a work. I may or may not. How can your belief in me be considered a work. But your belief in God and His promises is different. For God's says that He is always faithful, and will always fulfill his promises.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
I certainly entertain a hope of eternal life.
HP: I simply mean that ‘by faith’ I believe that when I stand before Almighty God at the judgment that I will be found to have Jesus Christ the Righteous as my Advocate. That is my hope and trust.
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
I certainly entertain a hope of eternal life.
HP: I simply mean that ‘by faith’ I believe that when I stand before Almighty God at the judgment that I will be found to have Jesus Christ the Righteous as my Advocate. That is my hope and trust.
Amen! This is the subject of the OP. You say "i will be found", you have a know so faith and not a hope so faith. You don't say "I hope I will be found" but rather "i will be found". Praise Him!
Praise be to God that our "faith" is not a blind hope but rather God has given us absolute knowledge that Jesus is the Christ (1Jo 5, Ro 8) and although we do not see Him with our eyes our hope,or faith, is not a "hope so" faith but rather a "know so" faith. The scripture says we live by faith and not by sight, however, the scripture defines "faith in Christ" as an absolute knowledge, knowing who Jesus is and the eternal life we have in Him.
Thus, John writes 1Jo 5:4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
1Jo 5:10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
1Jo 5:13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
That word "know", as the OP has pointed out, is from the Greek "eido" which is used only in certain past tenses.
What is it ye know ye have (past tense) ?
The words "eternal life" is what "ye know ye have". Not future, but eternal life ye have been given the moment of regeneration (born of God).
Quite a dilemma for anyone espousing one can stop having something that God has declared is "eternal".
Eternal means "without end". Understand this and see how the scriptures harmonize with perfect sense!
DHK:
"There are no works, no conditions to fulfilled to receive the gift of salvation. Jesus paid it all. One must only receive it by faith. Neither of those verbs (receiving and believing (by faith) are works. They are not rightly considered conditions, and do not fall under the definition of condition. A condition is a work."
GE:
"There are no works, no conditions to fulfilled to receive the gift of salvation ..." is a contradiction. "To receive the gift of salvation" is a work and is a condition. You leave this up to man to perform or achieve, while exactly this is what man is unable to do. But God when he saves, saves by grace, which means God includes with his saving a person, the gift of ability to through faith receive and accept salvation. "Salvation is of the Lord" in every respect, even and especially in the respect of man's choice and willingness, and accepting and receiving of God's gift of salvation. God does more than fill a void in man's capacity; God creates from nothing, a willingness and a desire after Himself and his salvation. Where there before was nothing but enmity and animosity, God, when saving a person, creates love and the longing for His love in Jesus Christ for man.
"There are no works, no conditions to fulfilled to receive the gift of salvation. Jesus paid it all. One must only receive it by faith. Neither of those verbs (receiving and believing (by faith) are works. They are not rightly considered conditions, and do not fall under the definition of condition. A condition is a work."
GE:
"There are no works, no conditions to fulfilled to receive the gift of salvation ..." is a contradiction. "To receive the gift of salvation" is a work and is a condition. You leave this up to man to perform or achieve, while exactly this is what man is unable to do. But God when he saves, saves by grace, which means God includes with his saving a person, the gift of ability to through faith receive and accept salvation. "Salvation is of the Lord" in every respect, even and especially in the respect of man's choice and willingness, and accepting and receiving of God's gift of salvation. God does more than fill a void in man's capacity; God creates from nothing, a willingness and a desire after Himself and his salvation. Where there before was nothing but enmity and animosity, God, when saving a person, creates love and the longing for His love in Jesus Christ for man.
I don't know GE, "God creates from nothing"?
I believe scripture teaches us that we are created in the image of God and are to be considered God's offspring. I don't believe this is saying that we simply look like God, but rather we have God's attributes. Man has the ability to choose to do good or choose to do evil.
God declares ALL men will be drawn towards Christ. This indicates man has the ability to be drawn towards Christ. It does not mean all who are drawn will choose Christ. If it did, then all would be saved.
I believe God must prick the heart of man and therefore salvation begins with God and ultimately ends with God, but the pricking does not always lead to salvation, if fact mostly it does not. Many are called but few are chosen.
Man must be held accountable and taking man's ability to choose right from wrong away would leave us with mere pupets on a string.
God Bless!
Hi all,
When I look at this subject, I have found peace when asking three questions.
1. Who paid the price for sin?
2. Who was it paid for?
3. Who was it paid to?
In answering these questions, I find that Christ paid the price, He paid it for me and He paid it to the Father. At no time did I have anything to lose. It is the Father that declares me Righteous before Him, because of Christ. My salvation is in Christ, not in myself. I never had it to lose, the Father has it and He gives it to the Son and Christ said that He would lose none that the Father gives Him.
As for knowing, it is a touchy subject. My opinion (And it is only an opinion), I believe that knowing is understanding. Example:
When I left work this evening, I knew (Had an understanding) I was coming home. I didn't know it for a fact until I got home. There could have been an accident that kept me from making it home. So, I believe the correct way to see this is that I had faith I was going to make it home, but when I got home, faith ended. Where there is true knowledge, there is no faith.
While I find that we are sealed with hope of the promise, we will have faith until we get there. A true Christian will keep the faith because of the witness that bears with them. The Holy Spirit will never leave us until we reach our home.
So, I find that we have passed from death unto life, never to be seperated from the love of Christ. While here in this world, I have a portion of what is to come, that keeps my faith strong until the day He comes to call both body and soul to be with Him forever.
I hope this may help someone.
God bless!!!
When I look at this subject, I have found peace when asking three questions.
1. Who paid the price for sin?
2. Who was it paid for?
3. Who was it paid to?
In answering these questions, I find that Christ paid the price, He paid it for me and He paid it to the Father. At no time did I have anything to lose. It is the Father that declares me Righteous before Him, because of Christ. My salvation is in Christ, not in myself. I never had it to lose, the Father has it and He gives it to the Son and Christ said that He would lose none that the Father gives Him.
As for knowing, it is a touchy subject. My opinion (And it is only an opinion), I believe that knowing is understanding. Example:
When I left work this evening, I knew (Had an understanding) I was coming home. I didn't know it for a fact until I got home. There could have been an accident that kept me from making it home. So, I believe the correct way to see this is that I had faith I was going to make it home, but when I got home, faith ended. Where there is true knowledge, there is no faith.
While I find that we are sealed with hope of the promise, we will have faith until we get there. A true Christian will keep the faith because of the witness that bears with them. The Holy Spirit will never leave us until we reach our home.
So, I find that we have passed from death unto life, never to be seperated from the love of Christ. While here in this world, I have a portion of what is to come, that keeps my faith strong until the day He comes to call both body and soul to be with Him forever.
I hope this may help someone.
God bless!!!
"ginosko" (Gk) to know (absolutely)
"pistis" (Gk) persuasion. i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher)
Faith in Jesus Christ is a persuasion, a moral conviction of truth. This faith comes from an understanding of truth. This understanding of truth is given by the Holy Spirit. Faith is exercising that which one knows is an absolute truth.
Paul said, " I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
You have absolute knowledge and faith expressed in the same sentence by Paul. Paul has faith because Paul knows!
Our faith is not based on "hope so". A Christians faith is based on absolute knowledge of God's word.
Jhn 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
"pistis" (Gk) persuasion. i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher)
Faith in Jesus Christ is a persuasion, a moral conviction of truth. This faith comes from an understanding of truth. This understanding of truth is given by the Holy Spirit. Faith is exercising that which one knows is an absolute truth.
Paul said, " I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
You have absolute knowledge and faith expressed in the same sentence by Paul. Paul has faith because Paul knows!
Our faith is not based on "hope so". A Christians faith is based on absolute knowledge of God's word.
Jhn 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Could you site your source, just one reputable source, that sets forth that to know must imply "absolute" knowledge as you here state?
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"I don't know GE, "God creates from nothing"?"
GE:
You are quite right! I say it a little further. God while we were enemies of Him, saved us. "Haters of God" in fact, are the Words of the Word.
Man was responsible from his first breath of air by himself; that responsible man made a mess of his responsibility so that ALL his posterity is held responsible just like he was. You need not BECOME responsible, brother - you ARE responsible and are going to answer for your responsibility in hell if not Christ answered for you in hell.
GE:
You are quite right! I say it a little further. God while we were enemies of Him, saved us. "Haters of God" in fact, are the Words of the Word.
Man was responsible from his first breath of air by himself; that responsible man made a mess of his responsibility so that ALL his posterity is held responsible just like he was. You need not BECOME responsible, brother - you ARE responsible and are going to answer for your responsibility in hell if not Christ answered for you in hell.
Steaver:
"I believe scripture teaches us that we are created in the image of God and are to be considered God's offspring. I don't believe this is saying that we simply look like God, but rather we have God's attributes. Man has the ability to choose to do good or choose to do evil. "
GE:
We - in Adam - were 'created in the image of God'. We - in Adam - have LOST that images; that is what 'the Fall' means. 'The heart of man is wicked above everything' - that cannot be God's image! etc by the score.
Then, surely yes, the new man in Christ is able - or rather - is ENabled "to choose to do good or choose to do evil". But the unregenerate man is not. He finds it unnecessary; boring; for the nerds, or better, for the stupid poor ignorant fools who believe in God and Christ. Like a pig the unregenerate man LOVES the mire and HATES cleanliness and CANNOT HELP otherwise. In nfact, the ultimate metaphor for me, I find in Paul's words that the Gospel to the wicked is the smell of death - a killing smell; while for the saved it is the smell of life unto life.
"I believe scripture teaches us that we are created in the image of God and are to be considered God's offspring. I don't believe this is saying that we simply look like God, but rather we have God's attributes. Man has the ability to choose to do good or choose to do evil. "
GE:
We - in Adam - were 'created in the image of God'. We - in Adam - have LOST that images; that is what 'the Fall' means. 'The heart of man is wicked above everything' - that cannot be God's image! etc by the score.
Then, surely yes, the new man in Christ is able - or rather - is ENabled "to choose to do good or choose to do evil". But the unregenerate man is not. He finds it unnecessary; boring; for the nerds, or better, for the stupid poor ignorant fools who believe in God and Christ. Like a pig the unregenerate man LOVES the mire and HATES cleanliness and CANNOT HELP otherwise. In nfact, the ultimate metaphor for me, I find in Paul's words that the Gospel to the wicked is the smell of death - a killing smell; while for the saved it is the smell of life unto life.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Let’s see. Neither love nor hate are in reality choices of the will, but rather are necessitated states, either by our relationship to Adam or that of God, right? “Cannot help” designates necessity. I always thought that love and hate (in any moral sense) were denotations of moral intents, and that apart from choice would have absolutely no moral meaning whatsoever?
Can one love or hate anything that is not in direct relationship to a formed intent of the will, and that being chosen in a state of freedom as opposed to one of necessity?
Would the reader be right in assuming that you believe that we are first created as helpless sinners by God, and then those lucky ones that are found in Christ were made so by the necessitated impulses of the Holy Spirit? Would it not also be a fair assessment to say that believing as such you are a strong advocate in a limited atonement and believe as well in irresistible grace?
unregenerate man LOVES the mire and HATES cleanliness and CANNOT HELP otherwiseGerhard Ebersoehn said:
1. If you mean that the Gospel to the unregenerate is condemnation, then I would agree. (death)
2. If you mean that the Gospel to the saved, is food for the soul, then I would agree.
3. Does this mean the choice is taken away, by no means. They can not come to the light except their deeds be changed.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
reproved
A adjective
1 admonished, chastened, rebuked, reprimanded, reproved
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HP:
Let’s see. Neither love nor hate are in reality choices of the will, but rather are necessitated states, either by our relationship to Adam or that of God, right? “Cannot help” designates necessity. I always thought that love and hate (in any moral sense) were denotations of moral intents, and that apart from choice would have absolutely no moral meaning whatsoever?
GE:
Well. I think you have been wrong all along. Love and hate in any possible sense are denotators of moral intents and inclinations, not denotations or indicators merely. They determine choice and what freedom for the chooser shall be. Hate for God is the wicked's love; Love for wickedness is the redeemed's hate.
Let’s see. Neither love nor hate are in reality choices of the will, but rather are necessitated states, either by our relationship to Adam or that of God, right? “Cannot help” designates necessity. I always thought that love and hate (in any moral sense) were denotations of moral intents, and that apart from choice would have absolutely no moral meaning whatsoever?
GE:
Well. I think you have been wrong all along. Love and hate in any possible sense are denotators of moral intents and inclinations, not denotations or indicators merely. They determine choice and what freedom for the chooser shall be. Hate for God is the wicked's love; Love for wickedness is the redeemed's hate.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What? I love cats. They taste like chicken!(or so says the bumper sticker) I hate telemarketers at supper time. Neither of these necessarily depict moral intentions. Only as one can properly affix moral blame or praise to ones intents can they be said to be moral in nature.
HP: What determines choice and freedom?? If anything determines anything else, whatever is the results of that which is determined cannot be said to be free or have choice. The chooser must be able to be the sole cause of its intents for it to be said to be free. There must be more than one possible consequent for a given antecedent for the will to be said to have choice or freedom. If anything determines the outcome or choice of the will other than the will itself, the will is not free and what one wrongfully denotes as choice is delegated to nothing more or less than pure necessity.
HP: So that is why the believers, as some indicate, commit sin every day in thought word and deed, because they hate wickedness so much?
Dictionary.com...
"know"...1.to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: I know the situation fully.
"certainty"....
1.the state of being certain.
2.something certain; an assured fact.
Strong's Concordance.....
1097...ginosko....a prol. form of a primary verb: to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many impl. (as follow. with others not thus clearly expressed)
Do you have a different translation that reads something other than "know" HP? Let the text be true and adjust your views accordingly. Do you know Jesus Christ HP? If you say yes, you are saying you are "certain of an assured fact".
And because you are certain of this assured fact HP (and the reason you are certain of this assured fact is the Holy Spirit indwellment which testifies always of this assured fact) you have faith in this assured fact. Just as Paul states....
" I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Faith and know in the same breath!! Christian faith in Christ is based on knowledge given by God. Otherwise you would be an agnostic.
Are the sources I gave reputable enough for you?
God Bless! :thumbs:
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HP:
"What determines choice and freedom?? If anything determines anything else, whatever is the results of that which is determined cannot be said to be free or have choice. The chooser must be able to be the sole cause of its intents for it to be said to be free. There must be more than one possible consequent for a given antecedent for the will to be said to have choice or freedom. If anything determines the outcome or choice of the will other than the will itself, the will is not free and what one wrongfully denotes as choice is delegated to nothing more or less than pure necessity."
GE:
Philosophical mathematics does not work for things of faith, brother!
A 'hater' of God is ruled by his hate and his hate tells him not to decide for God; his hate-freedom makes sure he shall hate God and shall choose against God.
Unless God creates in this hater of God a new heart, will he choose against his natural inclinations and choose for God. The Love for God planted in Him even without his knowing or consent or co-operation whatsoever, NOW, shall compell this lover-of-God to according to his newly given and to himself strange love, freely, to love God with ---- ALL : HIS OWN : HEART!
NO philosophy or logic or wisdom of the world can explain this MYSTERY OF GODLINESS.
"What determines choice and freedom?? If anything determines anything else, whatever is the results of that which is determined cannot be said to be free or have choice. The chooser must be able to be the sole cause of its intents for it to be said to be free. There must be more than one possible consequent for a given antecedent for the will to be said to have choice or freedom. If anything determines the outcome or choice of the will other than the will itself, the will is not free and what one wrongfully denotes as choice is delegated to nothing more or less than pure necessity."
GE:
Philosophical mathematics does not work for things of faith, brother!
A 'hater' of God is ruled by his hate and his hate tells him not to decide for God; his hate-freedom makes sure he shall hate God and shall choose against God.
Unless God creates in this hater of God a new heart, will he choose against his natural inclinations and choose for God. The Love for God planted in Him even without his knowing or consent or co-operation whatsoever, NOW, shall compell this lover-of-God to according to his newly given and to himself strange love, freely, to love God with ---- ALL : HIS OWN : HEART!
NO philosophy or logic or wisdom of the world can explain this MYSTERY OF GODLINESS.
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