You may know (absolutely) ye have eternal life

[steaver]

The following were not just overshadowed with the Holy Ghost, they were "filled" with the Holy Ghost. You must answer this before taking such a stand on John 7:39! The following just do not fit in to John 7:39, so you just skip them for now, right?

I already showed you how the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" cannot equate to "born again, Spirit giving birth to spirit, indwellment of the Holy Spirit, the creating of a new creature in Christ. And I used SCRIPTURE!

It was under dilemma #1 and #2; Here is #2 again;

2) Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Dilemma #2, why would the scripture instruct Christians to be "filled with the Spirit" if being "filled with the Spirit" is being "born again"? Something a Christian has already been through.

This alone teaches us that being filled with the Spirit is not "born again".

Therefore the scriptures you posted using the expression "filled with the Holy Ghost" cannot equate to "born again indwellment".

Answer the question Mark..."why would the scripture instruct Christians to be "filled with the Spirit" if being "filled with the Spirit" is being "born again"? Something a Christian has already been through."

I answered this now for the second time and I used scripture to interpret my position on the matter. Can you do the same?

:jesus:

 

[mark1]

I already showed you how the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" cannot equate to "born again, Spirit giving birth to spirit, indwellment of the Holy Spirit, the creating of a new creature in Christ. And I used SCRIPTURE!

It was under dilemma #1 and #2; Here is #2 again;

2) Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Dilemma #2, why would the scripture instruct Christians to be "filled with the Spirit" if being "filled with the Spirit" is being "born again"? Something a Christian has already been through.

This alone teaches us that being filled with the Spirit is not "born again".

Therefore the scriptures you posted using the expression "filled with the Holy Ghost" cannot equate to "born again indwellment".

Answer the question Mark..."why would the scripture instruct Christians to be "filled with the Spirit" if being "filled with the Spirit" is being "born again"? Something a Christian has already been through."

I answered this now for the second time and I used scripture to interpret my position on the matter. Can you do the same?

:jesus:

Man, if you don't know what "being filled with the Spirit" is, then I don't know how you preach. I can't preach without it. I can talk, but that is not preaching. Preaching is a mystery and takes God to give the Spirit to preach with.

Scripture says you cannot even confess that Jesus is the Christ, except by the Spirit.

Have you not ever rejoiced in the Lord, by the Spirit? Remember the "day of Pentecost, when they thought they were all drunk?

 

[steaver]

There are several different definitions in Greek for "given" but not in John 7: 39

The word "given" is added by the KJV translators to give clarification of the understanding of the scripture.

Anytime you see these brackets [ word ] with a word or words in them it means that they are not in the original but were added to help complete the thought.

It would not make sense to say that the "Holy Spirit was not yet" and then let it go at that. People would think that the Holy Spirit did not exist yet and this would also make scripture look as though it is contradicting.

One thing I love about the KJV is that it is a word for word translation and the translators were honest and fearful enough to let the reader know when they added words that were not really there, but for good reason, to complete the thought properly.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Man, if you don't know what "being filled with the Spirit" is, then I don't know how you preach. I can't preach without it. I can talk, but that is not preaching. Preaching is a mystery and takes God to give the Spirit to preach with.

Scripture says you cannot even confess that Jesus is the Christ, except by the Spirit.

Have you not ever rejoiced in the Lord, by the Spirit? Remember the "day of Pentecost, when they thought they were all drunk?

I know what it is and I long for it everyday. I have showed you what it is not and I did this from the scriptures, it is not my opinion. It is not "born again" indwellment.

Answer the question Mark..."why would the scripture instruct Christians to be "filled with the Spirit" if being "filled with the Spirit" is being "born again"? Something a Christian has already been through."

:jesus:

 

[mark1]

The word "given" is added by the KJV translators to give clarification of the understanding of the scripture.

Anytime you see these brackets [ word ] with a word or words in them it means that they are not in the original but were added to help complete the thought.

It would not make sense to say that the "Holy Spirit was not yet" and then let it go at that. People would think that the Holy Spirit did not exist yet and this would also make scripture look as though it is contradicting.

One thing I love about the KJV is that it is a word for word translation and the translators were honest and fearful enough to let the reader know when they added words that were not really there, but for good reason, to complete the thought properly.

:jesus:

Maybe it was saying the Holy Ghost was not yet the "Comforter", as Jesus said, I will send you another Comforter and told them to tarry until it came?

 

[mark1]

I know what it is and I long for it everyday. I have showed you what it is not and I did this from the scriptures, it is not my opinion. It is not "born again" indwellment.

Answer the question Mark..."why would the scripture instruct Christians to be "filled with the Spirit" if being "filled with the Spirit" is being "born again"? Something a Christian has already been through."

:jesus:

Well, who else is going to be filled with the Spirit. Scripture says; His Spirit bears witness with our spirit, does it not?

I gave you instances where some were "filled" with the Holy Ghost, you gave no answer.

Can you tell me what "indwellment" is?

Wonder when the Holy Ghost left John the Baptist, you got any idea? Man can you get in deep when you try to put everything in a box, and tie the hands of God. Who had been His councelor?

Steaver, you or DHK or I, or anyone else can answer it all.

You never did answer what was that "power" given to the believers, that received Christ? If it made them "sons of God", then they were not sons before, you think they might of been "born again". The Lord wanted Nicodemous to be as they were.

 

[steaver]

Maybe it was saying the Holy Ghost was not yet the "Comforter", as Jesus said, I will send you another Comforter and told them to tarry until it came?

We need not wonder...

Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[mark1]

We need not wonder...

Jhn 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

At the cross came blood and water:

Jhn 19:34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

It was later that the Holy Ghost came as the "Comforter".

Which time are you speaking of?

Scripture teaches us that the Holy Ghost was already here before Jesus even died, but came as the "Comforter" after His resurrection and later. So, which are you speaking of, when the "water" comes.

 

[steaver]

Well, who else is going to be filled with the Spirit. Scripture says; His Spirit bears witness with our spirit, does it not?

It does concerning regeneration. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. (Born of God)

Now, as born of God children, we are commanded to be "filled with the Spirit". A whole other ministry of the Holy Spirit, letting our flesh die daily and letting the fulness of all the Spirit has to offer control our every thought and desires.

I gave you instances where some were "filled" with the Holy Ghost, you gave no answer.

I did give answer. There are many ministries and works of the Holy Spirit. I have shown by scripture that the Holy Spirit's ministry of regeneration was not yet given until Jesus was glorified and that the ministry of the Holy Spirit's "being filled with the Spirit" does not equate with the ministry of "born again".

The scriptures you posted cannot equate to regeneration. They can only then be that the Holy Spirit was working His power mightly through them and in them for a purpose of a witness as to what was being said or what was taking place or was to take place. One did not need to be born again to have this happen. Even an ass experienced some ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Can you tell me what "indwellment" is?

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

God could not live in man until Jesus took care of the sin issue.

Wonder when the Holy Ghost left John the Baptist, you got any idea? Man can you get in deep when you try to put everything in a box, and tie the hands of God. Who had been His councelor?

Now this goes into the realm of just an opinion, but I believe the ministry of the Holy Spirit power never left John the Baptist. Scripture does not say. Remember, there are many ministries of the Holy Spirit.

You never did answer what was that "power" given to the believers, that received Christ?

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The word "power" (Gr exousia) means the right or authority to become the sons of God. Those who believe in Him will have the right to be born of God. It would not happen until after the glorification of Jesus. Now that all has been accomplished in Christ (death, burial, ressurrection and glorification) those who believe in Him since are instantly born of God.

:jesus:

 

[mark1]

It does concerning regeneration. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. (Born of God)


Now, as born of God children, we are commanded to be "filled with the Spirit". A whole other ministry of the Holy Spirit, letting our flesh die daily and letting the fulness of all the Spirit has to offer control our every thought and desires.

Again, you are equating born of God as "filled with the Spirit" and Luke 1 gives a whole list of those filled with the Holy Ghost.


I did give answer. There are many ministries and works of the Holy Spirit. I have shown by scripture that the Holy Spirit's ministry of regeneration was not yet given until Jesus was glorified and that the ministry of the Holy Spirit's "being filled with the Spirit" does not equate with the ministry of "born again".

So, all those who died in faith believing before Jesus was Glorified, believed in vain, or were they saved?

The scriptures you posted cannot equate to regeneration. They can only then be that the Holy Spirit was working His power mightly through them and in them for a purpose of a witness as to what was being said or what was taking place or was to take place. One did not need to be born again to have this happen. Even an ass experienced some ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Really bothers me for you to equate John the Baptist with an ass.


1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Luke 1 again a whole list filled with the Holy Ghost, so they must of been the temple of God also. You answer about these people does not hold water.

God could not live in man until Jesus took care of the sin issue.

These people were found perfect before God in Luke 1.



Now this goes into the realm of just an opinion, but I believe the ministry of the Holy Spirit power never left John the Baptist. Scripture does not say. Remember, there are many ministries of the Holy Spirit.

Was one of those ministeries to fill John the Baptist with the Holy Ghost, his entire life?



Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The word "power" (Gr exousia) means the right or authority to become the sons of God. Those who believe in Him will have the right to be born of God. It would not happen until after the glorification of Jesus. Now that all has been accomplished in Christ (death, burial, ressurrection and glorification) those who believe in Him since are instantly born of God.

What about the ones who died, before Christ died?

:jesus:

Waiting on your response to the last post.

 

[steaver]

At the cross came blood and water:

Jhn 19:34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

It was later that the Holy Ghost came as the "Comforter".

Which time are you speaking of?

Scripture teaches us that the Holy Ghost was already here before Jesus even died, but came as the "Comforter" after His resurrection and later. So, which are you speaking of, when the "water" comes.

The Holy Ghost is eternal and is God. You are not grasping the different works and different ways the Holy Spirit performs those works or ministers throughout the world with mankind and in mankind.

Not sure what the water coming out of His side has to do with John 7:38-39 that we are discussing.

Coming as the Comforter is part of regeneration but the Spirit has many ministries. Comforter is just another name or ministry for the Holy Spirit. Just as Jesus has many titles.

:jesus:

 

[mark1]

The Holy Ghost is eternal and is God. You are not grasping the different works and different ways the Holy Spirit performs those works or ministers throughout the world with mankind and in mankind.

Not sure what the water coming out of His side has to do with John 7:38-39 that we are discussing.

Coming as the Comforter is part of regeneration but the Spirit has many ministries. Comforter is just another name or ministry for the Holy Spirit. Just as Jesus has many titles.

:jesus:

You never answered nothing, wow! You been pushing this by water being born again and can't tell me when the water came.

You stated the "Power to become the sons of God" was given, so that after Jesus died, then they could become the sons of God.
They were the foundation of the Grace Covenant, with Jesus being the cheif corner stone, but they were not saved, nor were they sons of God, while raising the dead, healing the blind, making the lame to walk, but most of all, following Jesus Christ, to help in setting up the Grace Covenant.

You are the first person I have ever seen state that the Apostles had to wait to become the sons of God. It never ceases to shock me, the beliefs on this board.

Never heard it said or written that the Apostles were not saved. Amazing!!

 

[steaver]

Mark, you keep asking the same questions after I already gave an answer, but I will answer your last one.

What about the ones who died, before Christ died?

Here we have to go into the realm of speculation. But if I take into the consideration that Jesus said "ye MUST be born again" and Ehp 4:8 then I must consider the possibility that when he went into hades to show the OT saints that He had conquered sin and death that afterwards when He was glorified they also received the Holy Spirit regeneration, living water.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

 

[mark1]

Mark, you keep asking the same questions after I already gave an answer, but I will answer your last one.



Here we have to go into the realm of speculation. But if I take into the consideration that Jesus said "ye MUST be born again" and Ehp 4:8 then I must consider the possibility that when he went into hades to show the OT saints that He had conquered sin and death that afterwards when He was glorified they also received the Holy Spirit regeneration, living water.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

After all this going around and around we end up in speculation........... Lets have a good laugh, ok:laugh:

Steaver:

And my argument has been defeated because you have just said it has? All I see is rhetoric so far. I have used scripture to build my case. Where is your scripture references? Where is the harmony between what you believe and what has been said by God?

 

[DHK]

Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

It does not get any clearer than this, "they that believe on him should receive".

Nic did not get the rebirth yet nor did the disciples nor the woman at the well. All waited in faith until after Jesus was glorified. There is no "born again" until after the glorification of Jesus.

Like I said many times, "saved" is not a OT term, it is a NT term and when we preach it we are telling people ye must be born again. So if you want to say in hindsight that the OT saints were being saved then that is ok, but "saved" as we preach it is being "born again" and this did not happen to anyone until after the ressurrection and glorification of Jesus.

:jesus:

You have used this Scripture quite a bit. But time and again you have taken it out of context. Let's look at the context. First note that John did not write until after 90 A.D. The first three gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) are called "the Synoptics" because they are so similar to each other in many ways. John's Gospel is different. It is different for two reasons. It was written well after the other gospels, and with a different purpose in mind. But secondly, because of the time span, John already knew what was in the other gospels. He wrote information, very detailed, and supplemental to that which was in the other gospels. That is why we don't have the kingdom parables, the sermon on the mount, the temptation of Christ in the wilderness, etc.

Now look at the passage of Scripture, and the context:
(Joh 7:37) In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

(Joh 7:38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(Joh 7:39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

(Joh 7:40) Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

Jesus was at the Temple during a feast. He stands in the midst and cries in a loud voice where everyone could hear: "If any man thirst, let him come to me and drink." This is not in the future; not wait til Pentecost; but come to me now.
He then tells them: "He that believes on me as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Now John was writing this gospel long after everything else was written--in the 90's. Note verse 39 is in parentheses. It was put in parentheses by the translators for a purpose. It is a parenthetical statement inserted by John in his narrative, where he is explaining to the readers why Jesus is saying what he is saying: At this time in the ministry of Jesus, John is explaining that the Holy Spirit had not yet come. Pentecost had not yet happened. He is giving us a time line, or an explanation for the Holy Spirit's working. It is obvious that Jesus had not yet been glorified. He was there speaking in front of everyone.

But when they heard him, they declared that he was a prophet.
What Jesus said: "Believe on me and out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Every person that beleived on Jesus in the NT had a changed life. That can only be accounted for by the Holy Spirit. Even if it isn't by the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, change came by the Holy Spirit. That is true for Nicodemus, and for all the Apostles. Christ did not work with unsaved individuals. They had the Holy Spirit long before Pentecost. They may not have been permanently indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but they were still born again.

 

[steaver]

They may not have been permanently indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but they were still born again.

With all due respect brother, you will not be able to produce one scripture that supports this statement, it is purely a misguided opinion of yours.

Being born of God is receiving the permanent indwellment of the Holy Spirit of God. Spirit gives birth to spirit, two become one, a new creature is born, regeneration. To say what you said above is wrong. Indwellment is the rebirth! How can you define "born again" any other way? Show me from the scriptures that it is NOT the Spirit joining with spirit to produce living water, eternal life. This is indwellment.

I have taken nothing out of context. The scripture is very clear on the rebirth, it is what Jesus came to teach and it is what John records for us.

Can you show me how you define "born again" with the scriptures and not include the receiving of the Holy Spirit indwellment?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

After all this going around and around we end up in speculation........... Lets have a good laugh, ok:laugh:

Interesting, no rebutal, no attempt to give harmony between scriptures.

I ask this of others who have refused to work at their studies of scripture to bring harmony in, what advantage does one get out of ignoring one passage to embrace another?

I have shown over and over how both the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" and "the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified" can coexist in harmony.

I have shown how the phrase "filled with the Spirit" was spoken to those already having the indwellment of the Holy Spirit. But it was ignored, why? Why would one still hold onto a misguided view even after being clearly shown how that view cannot exist in harmony with God's word? Is it pride?

I have shown how the scripture defines "born again" by quoting scripture itself. Allowing scripture to interpret and define scripture. But Mark does not care what the scripture declares about the term "born again". He wants to believe as he believes and who cares about the scripture definitions.

Marks answer is to repeat Luke 1 that states people were filled with the Holy ghost before Jesus' glorification. This is the answer he keeps reitterating even though it is proven by scripture itself that this phrase cannot mean "born again". He must ignore Eph 5:18 and stick with his view. Proper study of God's word should allow God's word to shape and correct understandings. It is just pride that keeps people in the dark and in misguided views.

So Mark you end with a misrepresentation of the debate and a laugh. I end with a truthful summary of this debate and a reprove. Please study and rightly divide the word of truth, allow the word to shape your beliefs, if a currently held belief is shown from scripture to be wrong then simply adjust your belief, this is growing in knowlegde and understanding of the Lord and His word.

It doesn't matter how right we think we are, it matters that God's word is rightly divided and the truth is proclaimed.

Left unresolved in your view is this; You say that the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" in Luke 1 means "born again". This does not harmonize with Ehp 5:18 so it should be abandoned.

The "born again" ministry of the Holy Spirit is said to not have been given yet in John 7:38-39 because Jesus was not yet glorified. This also defeats your view of Luke 1.

So you need to take a step back and honor God's word and adjust your views. Pride has no use in God's Kingdom. Let the word say what it says. Let the word give harmony, contention should not exist in your views between the scriptures, one scripture does not negate another, harmony must be found.

God Bless! :jesus:

 

[mark1]

Interesting, no rebutal, no attempt to give harmony between scriptures.

I ask this of others who have refused to work at their studies of scripture to bring harmony in, what advantage does one get out of ignoring one passage to embrace another?

I have shown over and over how both the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" and "the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified" can coexist in harmony.

I have shown how the phrase "filled with the Spirit" was spoken to those already having the indwellment of the Holy Spirit. But it was ignored, why? Why would one still hold onto a misguided view even after being clearly shown how that view cannot exist in harmony with God's word? Is it pride?

I have shown how the scripture defines "born again" by quoting scripture itself. Allowing scripture to interpret and define scripture. But Mark does not care what the scripture declares about the term "born again". He wants to believe as he believes and who cares about the scripture definitions.

Marks answer is to repeat Luke 1 that states people were filled with the Holy ghost before Jesus' glorification. This is the answer he keeps reitterating even though it is proven by scripture itself that this phrase cannot mean "born again". He must ignore Eph 5:18 and stick with his view. Proper study of God's word should allow God's word to shape and correct understandings. It is just pride that keeps people in the dark and in misguided views.

So Mark you end with a misrepresentation of the debate and a laugh. I end with a truthful summary of this debate and a reprove. Please study and rightly divide the word of truth, allow the word to shape your beliefs, if a currently held belief is shown from scripture to be wrong then simply adjust your belief, this is growing in knowlegde and understanding of the Lord and His word.

It doesn't matter how right we think we are, it matters that God's word is rightly divided and the truth is proclaimed.

Left unresolved in your view is this; You say that the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" in Luke 1 means "born again". This does not harmonize with Ehp 5:18 so it should be abandoned.

The "born again" ministry of the Holy Spirit is said to not have been given yet in John 7:38-39 because Jesus was not yet glorified. This also defeats your view of Luke 1.

So you need to take a step back and honor God's word and adjust your views. Pride has no use in God's Kingdom. Let the word say what it says. Let the word give harmony, contention should not exist in your views between the scriptures, one scripture does not negate another, harmony must be found.

God Bless! :jesus:

How do you rebutt this:

Steaver: Here we have to go into the realm of speculation. But if I take into the consideration that Jesus said "ye MUST be born again" and Ehp 4:8 then I must consider the possibility that when he went into hades to show the OT saints that He had conquered sin and death that afterwards when He was glorified they also received the Holy Spirit regeneration, living water.

You speak of harmony, but yet you fail when it comes to those who were "filled" with the Holy Ghost, before Jesus died, so it is you that is without harmony.

You have been taught to hold to a exegesis, and so you are "locked" in.

Your position is that you must be filled with the Holy Ghost to be born again, yet you have not explanation for those who were filled with the Holy Ghost. That is not harmony.

Your position is that all those who received Christ were given "power" to become the sons of God, and you say it is somewhere in the future. Jesus sent the Apostles to preach the Gospel and you say they were not saved. Jesus said "Father, I have lost none", lost from what?

Paul came preaching a different way, than Peter was preaching, so where was their "harmony".

Can you give "one" scripture where the Holy Ghost left all the people in Luke 1, or can you give "one" scripture where the Holy Ghost left John the Baptist?

Where is your harmony? You do not have it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You never answered nothing, wow! You been pushing this by water being born again and can't tell me when the water came.

You stated the "Power to become the sons of God" was given, so that after Jesus died, then they could become the sons of God.
They were the foundation of the Grace Covenant, with Jesus being the cheif corner stone, but they were not saved, nor were they sons of God, while raising the dead, healing the blind, making the lame to walk, but most of all, following Jesus Christ, to help in setting up the Grace Covenant.

You are the first person I have ever seen state that the Apostles had to wait to become the sons of God. It never ceases to shock me, the beliefs on this board.

Never heard it said or written that the Apostles were not saved. Amazing!!

GE:
You are unreasonable Mark1! How can one converse with you? You make it impossible!

Haven't you read where Steaver so often has argued for an eternal redemption? Then you accuse him of saying the apostles weren't saved?

Have you read where I have posted that although the apostles had been saved they could not properly act with apostolic authority until they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at pentecost and NOT before! The Sunday-evening appearance was not the outpouring of the Holy Ghost "according to the Scriuptures"! It literally reads in the Greek that Jesus sighed as though He yearned after that day when the disciples would receive the Holy Spirit "according to the Promise" -- which is what would make ALL the difference!

 

[mark1]

GE:
You are unreasonable Mark1! How can one converse with you? You make it impossible!

Haven't you read where Steaver so often has argued for an eternal redemption? Then you accuse him of saying the apostles weren't saved?

Have you read where I have posted that although the apostles had been saved they could not properly act with apostolic authority until they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at pentecost and NOT before! The Sunday-evening appearance was not the outpouring of the Holy Ghost "according to the Scriuptures"! It literally reads in the Greek that Jesus sighed as though He yearned after that day when the disciples would receive the Holy Spirit "according to the Promise" -- which is what would make ALL the difference!

As McCain said, that makes about as much sense as nailing jello to a wall.

No one has questioned eternal redemption. We are discussing when you get it, which is way out of your range. If I remember right, you believe you get it before the world began, right? So you don't even have a dog in this race. Did the apostles have the indwelling of the Holy Ghost or not. Jesus said to tarry to you be endured from power from on high. I do not believe this was salvation, but power to go and preach the Gospel to every creature, for they spoke in every language of every nation.

Notice the word "power", it didn't say they were then "born again", it said they begin to speak in other tongues, of every nation, kindred and tongue. They were already "born again", and by the Holy Ghost, I might add.

Act 2:17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

You see "born again" anywhere in there?

1Jo 2:24

¶​

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.




Luk 24:49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

As Steaver did say, the Holy Ghost had many ministeries.

Day of Pentecost was just one of them.

The question is what is the difference of "being filled with the Holy Ghost" before Jesus died and "being filled with the Holy Ghost", after Jesus died. If you are as you believe, (I think), what difference would it make with you? :thumbs:

If you notice, the blood is not even being discussed here, just the fact of being filled with the Holy Ghost.