steaver said:
I would not be too hasty:
Jhn 1:11
Jhn 1:12
Jhn 1:13
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You may know (absolutely) ye have eternal life
- Thread starter steaver
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I would not be too hasty:
Jhn 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
In many Scriptures Jesus speaks about salvation. When he does he speaks about it as having eternal life. Check: John 3:16,18,36, 5:24.steaver said:
These are clear salvation verses by Jesus.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
There is no equivocation here. Either one is saved or is condemned. Which one is it? And thus it is all through out the NT.
Again Jesus said:
I am come to seek and to save the lost.
If Thomas was not born again until he made that confession, then the only of his Apostles that was saved or born again, was Peter; for he was the only one that had previously made such a confession. The breathing on the disciples "receive ye the Holy Spirit," was purely symbolic, and somewhat prophetic looking forward to the event that would happen at Pentecost. No one got saved (born again) at that point in time. What you are telling me is that Jesus worked with unsaved people (just like Judas Iscariot) all throughout his ministry. Your position, then is that Christ gave power to his Apostles, as unsaved individuals, and used these unsaved individual for three years in his ministry. I find that position quite unacceptable.
A helpful and sound answer! Thank you!
I call the witness of the apostles and other disciples before Pentecost 'The Witness of the World'. Although saved - they were in fact saved from before the foundation of the world - these witnesses witnessed like unbelievers and from a fleshly, earthly hope. Although calling Jesus my God and my Lord, both Peter and Thomas confessed and witnessed not from a proper understanding of the Work of Christ. It means not, I say again, they were not saved. But their confession at this point in time differed not at all from that of the guard at the cross; and it did not at this point in time, 'save' them. And it was necessary that they had to witness 'objectively' - not like true believers - so that no one can say the witness of these first Christians was that of enthusiasts. Like the rest of the world they had to be witnesses of the risen Christ matter-of-fact like - unprejudiced; even against their liking, as is obvious from the confession of Thomas. Christ did rise "in the flesh" from the dead. That at this stage in God's revelation was absolutely necessary. Read how John in his Epistlle described their observation of 'naked fact', and also Peter at Pentecost. One could say, they 'scientifically' witnessed; they were not intoxicated as some said they were. They just confessed what they witnessed like any other human being, saved or not saved, would have if Jesus might have appeared to him.
I call the witness of the apostles and other disciples before Pentecost 'The Witness of the World'. Although saved - they were in fact saved from before the foundation of the world - these witnesses witnessed like unbelievers and from a fleshly, earthly hope. Although calling Jesus my God and my Lord, both Peter and Thomas confessed and witnessed not from a proper understanding of the Work of Christ. It means not, I say again, they were not saved. But their confession at this point in time differed not at all from that of the guard at the cross; and it did not at this point in time, 'save' them. And it was necessary that they had to witness 'objectively' - not like true believers - so that no one can say the witness of these first Christians was that of enthusiasts. Like the rest of the world they had to be witnesses of the risen Christ matter-of-fact like - unprejudiced; even against their liking, as is obvious from the confession of Thomas. Christ did rise "in the flesh" from the dead. That at this stage in God's revelation was absolutely necessary. Read how John in his Epistlle described their observation of 'naked fact', and also Peter at Pentecost. One could say, they 'scientifically' witnessed; they were not intoxicated as some said they were. They just confessed what they witnessed like any other human being, saved or not saved, would have if Jesus might have appeared to him.
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They must hear.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Symbolic?? That makes no logical sense at all. The disciples received the Holy Spirit regeneration after the ressurrection and before Pentecost just as the scripture declares. Pentecost was the giving of the Holy Spirit power to the Apostles and a witness for all the unbelieving.
Yes, Jesus worked with "unregenerate" people. No regeneration was performed until Jesus was ressurrected for the Spirit was not yet given until then.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
They believed, but they were not born again yet. You may say they would be saved for Jesus said He would not lose them, but until the Spirit was given they were not born again.
Jesus gave power to many individuals in the OT yet none of them were born again, there was no such thing until after the ressurrection.
:jesus:
Do you realize how long eternity is? Do you think we are going to just sit around? I believe Jesus has quite a plan ahead of us, imagine trillions upon trillions of years, to do what? Nothing? I believe Jesus will let us know what the future holds, Will you have faith in Him that what He says will happen will?
Your imagination is why we are discussing this thing about having a belief, when we looking Him in the face.steaver said:
To be honest, your belief is realized when you get to Heaven. To believe "in", which is what your other thread is, and to believe it is Jesus, is entirely two different things.
Why don't you come out of the closet and say what you mean? You are talking about, will there be "faith" in heaven, because we disagreed with you, especially the moderator.
Absolutely they must hear. And on the basis of what they hear (the gospel) they will make a choice of whether to believe or not; whether to put their faith in Christ. Are proposing that either:steaver said:
1. This choice was only given to those who lived after Pentecost.
2. This choice will also be given to those in heaven (for faith will also be in heaven)? Is the gospel really going to be preached in heaven, which will necessitate "faith."
This is a contradiction of Scriptures. It is not what Christ said.
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
--They were commanded to wait for the promise of the Father, which was the coming of the Holy Spirit, or the Comforter which was to come.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
--Here again was the promise that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit in just a few days.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
--A third time they are told that they would receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon them.
The Holy Spirit would not indwell them until Pentecost--none of them.
What Jesus did--when he said--Receive ye the Holy Spirit--was purely symbolic and prophetic in nature. Their lives did not change at that moment. Nothing was different after that.
So, Peter, James, and John were all ungodly, pagan, unregenerates on their way to hell because Jesus had not risen. That is really an odd theology.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn007.html#39
Sorry, still don't get it.
Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is prophetic. Born of God is receiving the Holy Spirit which is not given until after the ressurrection. DHK says not given until pentecost. So I still don't know how this refutes what i said earlier.
Then you missed my post entirely.steaver said:
None of them received the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. That is true.
However, that does not mean that they were not born again, or saved.
Jesus said at the very beginning of his ministry in Mat.4, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men." He would disciple them. It was at that point that Andrew went and found his brother Simon and said: Come and see, for we have found the Messiah. They were "saved" at that time. They believed early on in the ministry of Christ that Christ was the Messiah. By Acts chapter one, before Pentecost takes place, there are 120 born again, saved individuals (with Mary) praying together in the upper room. After that the Holy Spirit comes. They were saved long before that time. The three thousand were saved on that day.
Abraham was a saved man, declared righteous before God. He did not have to wait for the resurrection to take place.
There were exceptions while the Grace Covenant was being established. You need to study the whole bible, not just parts to fit your theology.steaver said:
Luk 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Luk 1:41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:67
¶
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
What do you think the "power" was the Lord gave those who received him to become the "sons" of God.
Upon this Rock, I build my church. My friend the new way had already begin to be established. Even the dead were raised, we don't see that today. Accept the whole word of God, not just parts.
God did things that were just for the establishing the "new" way, and the offering for sin of all men, which had never been done. And Jesus said "it is finished". What was finished, and what did God have to do to get it done?
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Well, Jesus did not instruct Nicodemus to go and born yourself of God. He merely said ye must be born of God. This is impossible for any person. Only God can perform this act. Jesus told Nicodemus that ye must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. Nic had no clue as to what Jesus was speaking of because "born again" was a new term. It was spoken of in the OT as something to come (a new heart) but this term "born again" was not used and the details were not revealed until Jesus came. Nic should have had a clue being a Pharisee, but he was clueless to his shame as Jesus said to him, "You are a teacher and you do not know these things"?
It is impossible for any person to go and born themselves of God by the Spirit of God. This is for God alone. Either we must invite God to do so or God just does it as the Calvinist say. I believe the former.
:jesus:
So do I, and I believe that Christ gave Nicodemus enough information to be born again before the cross. As were the eleven, so was he, as we see him taking part in the burial of our Lord under great threat to his own life by the Pharisees. He indeed had become a believer before the resurrection had taken place.steaver said:
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