You may know (absolutely) ye have eternal life

[steaver]

The question is not whether or not one has eternal life. The question is how do we hold that promise? I say with Scripture, ‘ by faith,’ and that admits to a possibility of Scripture that you seem to have yet to come to grips with, i.e., the possibility of deception as to what one thinks they know.

This would be true if there was no such thing as regeneration. I and the Spirit are one. I cannot be decieved because the Spirit always remains in me testifying of the truth....

Jhn 10:8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Jhn 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[mark1]

Careful new comer. Please explain. :wavey:

I was only referring to being carried away in the Spirit or just being in nature. Has nothing to do with salvation at all. If you misunderstood, I apologize.

As in the following scripture. The Spirit bears witness. I know that I am not in the Spirit all the time and have to as God to forgive me.

I was simply giving the Spirit the credit and not me.

1Jo 5:6
¶This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

I am aware of who I am debating also, by reading after you.

 

[steaver]

I was only referring to being carried away in the Spirit or just being in nature. Has nothing to do with salvation at all. If you misunderstood, I apologize.

As in the following scripture. The Spirit bears witness. I know that I am not in the Spirit all the time and have to as God to forgive me.

I was simply giving the Spirit the credit and not me.

1Jo 5:6
¶This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

I am aware of who I am debating also, by reading after you.

Thank you brother! :thumbs: We are on the same team you know! :jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: This would be true if there was no such thing as regeneration. I and the Spirit are one. I cannot be decieved because the Spirit always remains in me testifying of the truth....

HP: This is where you and I part ways. When you disallow the ‘possibility’ of deception when Scripture makes it exceedingly clear that it is possible, you are on a foundation of sand.

One would do well to heed the words of Oliver Cromwell as well on this subject. “I beseech you in the name of Christ Jesus, think it possible that you might be mistaken.”

Point to any atrocity in history you wish to point at, Christian or otherwise, and you will most likely find that at its core was a foundation believing that they had 'absolute knowledge' as to their beliefs from which no error could exude nor could their actions be found to be in error. They were wrong.

God warns us that in the last days they will kill believers, fully believing they do God a service... but they will find in the end that they themselves have been the victim of deception.

God makes it clear, be not deceived. De 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

 

[mark1]

HP: This is where you and I part ways. When you disallow the ‘possibility’ of deception when Scripture makes it exceedingly clear that it is possible, you are on a foundation of sand.

One would do well to heed the words of Oliver Cromwell as well on this subject. “I beseech you in the name of Christ Jesus, think it possible that you might be mistaken.”

Point to any atrocity in history you wish to point at, Christian or otherwise, and you will most likely find that at its core was a foundation believing that they had 'absolute knowledge' as to their beliefs from which no error could exude nor could their actions be found to be in error. They were wrong.

God warns us that in the last days they will kill believers, fully believing they do God a service... but they will find in the end that they themselves have been the victim of deception.

God makes it clear, be not deceived. De 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Then how can you sin? If you and the Spirit are one. You mean God's Spirit, or your spirit?

Also, why does scripture say to the saved, "beware of false prophets"?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mark 1: Then how can you sin? If you and the Spirit are one. You mean God's Spirit, or your spirit?

HP: Could have you possibly meant this for Steaver to answer?

 

[steaver]

HP: This is where you and I part ways. When you disallow the ‘possibility’ of deception when Scripture makes it exceedingly clear that it is possible, you are on a foundation of sand.

One would do well to heed the words of Oliver Cromwell as well on this subject. “I beseech you in the name of Christ Jesus, think it possible that you might be mistaken.”

Point to any atrocity in history you wish to point at, Christian or otherwise, and you will most likely find that at its core was a foundation believing that they had 'absolute knowledge' as to their beliefs from which no error could exude nor could their actions be found to be in error. They were wrong.

God warns us that in the last days they will kill believers, fully believing they do God a service... but they will find in the end that they themselves have been the victim of deception.

God makes it clear, be not deceived. De 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Actually I agree with this. Where we disagree is that I am not saying a believer cannot be decieved about doctrine. I say a believer cannot be deceived about his salvation in Jesus Christ IF the Holy Spirit has testified to his spirit he is a child of God through regeneration. The deception you note is pertaining to the lost being deceived because they have not received Jesus Christ and have not been born again.

 

[mark1]

HP: Could have you possibly meant this for Steaver to answer?

Yes...............


Then how can you sin? If you and the Spirit are one. You mean God's Spirit, or your spirit?

Also, why does scripture say to the saved, "beware of false prophets"?

Steaver: This would be true if there was no such thing as regeneration. I and the Spirit are one. I cannot be decieved because the Spirit always remains in me testifying of the truth....

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: The deception you note is pertaining to the lost being deceived because they have not received Jesus Christ and have not been born again.

HP: To the contrary. Read it again. He was speaking to His own dear children. In the NT He speaks to us yet many times over to beware and to remain faithful to the end.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. Heb 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

 

[steaver]

Then how can you sin? If you and the Spirit are one. You mean God's Spirit, or your spirit?

Also, why does scripture say to the saved, "beware of false prophets"?

Not sure what you are asking. Can you reword it maybe?

You do understand being born again is being regenerated by God's Holy Spirit. A new creature is formed. Spirit gives birth to a new creature and indwells the person's very spirit.

If i were to sin the sin of adultery, scripture states that I would be guilty of joining the Holy Spirit with this act of sin. the Spirit does not sin, it is my flesh, but nonetheless the Spirit is with me, greiving.

1Cr 6:15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Scripture then declares we are one in spirit with Christ.

1Cr 6:17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

 

[steaver]

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. Heb 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

You will not be convinced of the teaching of these passages unless you deal with 1John 5 and have these text harmonize. This is why I started this thread.

Give me your argument of how your view of these text harmonizes with 1John 5 .

 

[mark1]

If i were to sin the sin of adultery, scripture states that I would be guilty of joining the Holy Spirit with this act of sin. the Spirit does not sin, it is my flesh, but nonetheless the Spirit is with me, greiving.

1Cr 6:15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Scripture then declares we are one in spirit with Christ.

1Cr 6:17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
__________________
steaver

This is just completely beyond my understanding. Sorry!

 

[steaver]

Hey good talking with you HP, but I must get some :sleeping_2:

You have been very polite and stayed on doctrine without personal innuendos. Appeciate it :thumbs: It is doctrine we disagree on. Jesus is Lord we do not.

Good talking with you also Mark. We live pretty close to each other. I hunted in west virginia once for whitetail, archery. I go to Maryland quite a bit because they offer an early muzzleloader (buck only) hunt which we love.

I can be in west virginia or maryland in about an hour and thirty minutes. I take 522 south from lewistown

God Bless! :jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: If i were to sin the sin of adultery, scripture states that I would be guilty of joining the Holy Spirit with this act of sin. the Spirit does not sin, it is my flesh, but nonetheless the Spirit is with me, greiving.

HP: Where does Scripture ever state that the Holy Spirit joins, with our without His own volition, with the believer in the commission of sin?? Here Steaver implies that they Holy Spirit and his self are still one even if while in the act of adultery. Where in the world did you find this doctrine of sinning?? Not is Scripture, that is for certain.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: You will not be convinced of the teaching of these passages unless you deal with 1John 5 and have these text harmonize. This is why I started this thread.

Give me your argument of how your view of these text harmonizes with 1John 5 .

HP: That is a false premise, suggesting that all Scripture has to line up with your favorite proof texts, and if it does not as you see it, it must be in error.

If the reader desires a clue as to where Steavers problem lies, let me state in his own words it for you again.

Steaver: I and the Spirit are one. I cannot be decieved because the Spirit always remains in me testifying of the truth....

HP: Deception is possible for any and all men in the flesh. Steaver would do well to find that true to his heart.

I quote Oliver Cromwell again for our admonition. "I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."

 

[DHK]

We generaly agree on things DHK, but how can i agree with this statement when Jesus said....

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

What did Jesus say about the rich man in Hell:
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Miracles, including the resurrection, have never been the cause of one's salvation. I believe you are taking Christ's statement out of context. First, was Thomas saved before or after that event. Was that a statement of salvation? If that was a statement of salvation, then almost all of the disciples were not saved, for almost everyone of them did not believe that he would rise again from the dead.

Mary and Martha did not believe that Lazarus was going to be raised from the dead. And yet he was. It is not the presence of Jesus that matters.
What was it that Thomas did not believe? He had not yet believed that Christ had risen from the dead--just like the two that were walking on the road to Emmaus had not believed, until Christ revealed Himself to them, and went through all the OT prophecies concerning Himself with them. Even after then, they still didn't recognize Him. They were more slow in coming to the truth than Thomas was!! These were not unsaved people. The realization that Christ had risen came very slowly to a group of sorrowful and dejected disciples. This "faith" has nothing to do with salvation.

But when Jesus adds: "Blessed are they which have not seen and yet beleive," then yes, he is speaking of salvation. But Thomas was already saved.

 

[steaver]

But when Jesus adds: "Blessed are they which have not seen and yet beleive," then yes, he is speaking of salvation. But Thomas was already saved.

"Saved" is not a term used in the OT. When we use this term in our discussions and our preaching we are speaking about having been born again, a NT term that goes along with the term "saved". "Saved" being a past event. WE could get technical and make sure we define saved each time we speak it but I don't think that would truly be necessary. Maybe I am wrong and it is necessary.

So let me restate it this way, Thomas was not "born again" until Jesus said "receive ye the Holy Spirit". So Thomas was not "saved", as we use the term, until he saw Jesus had truly risen and until he fell down on his knees and acknowleged that Jesus is Lord and God, and Jesus gave him the HS.

 

[steaver]

HP: Where does Scripture ever state that the Holy Spirit joins, with our without His own volition, with the believer in the commission of sin?? Here Steaver implies that they Holy Spirit and his self are still one even if while in the act of adultery. Where in the world did you find this doctrine of sinning?? Not is Scripture, that is for certain.

HP, I have explained, with scripture, what "born again" is many times to you. Spirit joins with spirit and ye are made alive in Christ. The Holy Spirit indwells you, you are born again, a new creature, the old creature is past away.

Now, you say the HS leaves the believer when the believer sins? If so, then ye must be born again and again and again as you sin again and again and again.

Either the Spirit is with me when I sin, and He is, this is why He is grieved, or He leaves and my spirit dies needing quickened over and over.

 

[steaver]

HP: That is a false premise, suggesting that all Scripture has to line up with your favorite proof texts, and if it does not as you see it, it must be in error.

I suggested no such thing. I praised you for having a good discussion without innuendos. Maybe it was a bit hasteful.

What I did say is what you have said as well. That is, scripture must harmonize.

So the point stands waiting for your harmonization of the texts. NOT making it line up with MY views, but rather making the texts you posted harmonize with other text such as 1Jo 5.

We are waiting.....

If the reader desires a clue as to where Steavers problem lies, let me state in his own words it for you again.

Steaver: I and the Spirit are one. I cannot be decieved because the Spirit always remains in me testifying of the truth....

Does anyone else on the list see a doctrinal problem with what i posted here? The quote is speaking about deception as it pertains to believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour as I explained in post #167. Not speaking about doctrines.

HP: Deception is possible for any and all men in the flesh. Steaver would do well to find that true to his heart.

I will let Paul handle this one....

Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Here is what HP wants it to say....

Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that you do not sin. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What does it really say HP? Do you have the Spirit of God dwelling in you HP? Then you are not in the flesh my brother.

 

[steaver]

I have a question for all three of my brothers in this discussion, and anyone else who wants to answer....

When you see Jesus face to face, will you stop believing in Him?

:jesus: