You may know (absolutely) ye have eternal life

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: This would condradict scriptures.

HP: (Just trying to follow along.) What Scriptures?

 

[steaver]

What is the meaning of the following verses? Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God…..and this one 1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

No point in introducing more verses into this thread until you harmonize the one you already have. You cannot leave a debate when your are perplexed and then return days later introducing new material. Stay focused. Clean up the old material first and then we can move on.

You have presented Heb 3:6 "IF we hold fast" as a rebuke to 1 John 5:13 "ye may know ye have eternal life". You have presented no harmony, only contention between the two.

You believe "IF we hold fast" means it is possible for one that is saved to then become unsaved. This does not harmonize with John saying the saved have been given eternal life. This belief only contradicts John.

To properly harmonize Heb 3:6 with 1John 5 one has no choice but to interpret Heb 3:6 as saying those who hold fast are truly the saved. IF we hold fast, then we are truly in Christ. Jesus said the same, "If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;" Those who do not continue are exposed as false disciples, as was Judas. With this interpretation we have harmony, one text does not contend with the other. With your interpretation we are left with contention.

You speak of "proper interpretation always is about harmonization of text". How do you say such and then totally disharmonize these two text? You can't take Heb 3:6 and say there, John's eternal life does not mean eternal life. That is not harmonization. That is dismissing one text in favor of another more to your liking for presuppositional reasons. As you say, you must harmonize!

I presented to you a dilemma HP. Can you reconcile your beliefs with John's declarations of knowing (past tense) ye have eternal life? Your interpretation of Heb 3:6 will not harmonize for you. You could try another or try refuting the following;

Here is your dilemma. John states that eternal life "has been" granted. Therefore the "IF" part has been satisfied which is "born again". Now John says you "have" eternal life. Eternal cannot end!! If you believe it can, you will have to give us another alternative definition for "eternal".

Here are the OP points once again; 1) "know ye have" points to a past experience. 2) that past experience was having received "eternal life". 3) "eternal" cannot end!

You want to add to this equasion the truth of God's "promise". This is good as long as you put God's promise into proper context. The "promise" is to give "eternal life". This promise God fulfills at regeneration, John declares as much.

The only way you can escape these truths of John's words is to make eternal life something that is not given until a future judgment. This you cannot justify doing when John declares it is a "past" event.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

HP: (Just trying to follow along.) What Scriptures?

Read the post again. :thumbs: John 20:29 was referenced. There are more.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

You obviously need a lesson in free will. I will respond as I feel led, when I feel led, and in the manner I feel led to respond. You are welcomed to exercise the same. :thumbs:

By the way, you assume things you have no knowledge of that are not according to reality. Your inability to discern the truth of the matter as to why I have not responded to your posts does not necessitate that the way you are viewing the issues are in accordance to reality.

 

[steaver]

You obviously need a lesson in free will. I will

No need for personal attacks. You are always complaining about such attacks. Don't be hypocritical. raying:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

Steaver: Read the post again. John 20:29 was referenced. There are more.

HP: Here was your comment

Steaver: Hebrews is a bit "deep". We could start a thread on this passage. BUT, what we can be assured of is that it is NOT saying faith ends at the sight of Jesus Christ. This would condradict scriptures.

HP: No one has indicated to my knowledge that faith will end ‘in every way’ once we enter heaven, but rather speaks of faith, as it relates to our present holding of salvation by faith, and of the promise we now have hold of concerning eternal life.
How does John 20:29 in any way seem contradictory to the idea that when we see Christ, our faith, as it relates to our salvation, will dissipate as the morning fog, when our faith will be turned to sight?

Context Steaver, context. :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

HP: No one has indicated to my knowledge that faith will end ‘in every way’ once we enter heaven, but rather speaks of faith, as it relates to our present holding of salvation by faith, and of the promise we now have hold of concerning eternal life.

To my knowledge, no one has said anything more or less than "faith ends".

 

[steaver]

How does John 20:29 in any way seem contradictory to the idea that when we see Christ, our faith, as it relates to our salvation, will dissipate as the morning fog, when our faith will be turned to sight?

Thomas seen and then Thomas believed in Jesus Christ. His belief did not end when he saw Jesus, he had no faith, his faith began when he saw Jesus. Was Thomas' faith going to end when he saw Jesus AGAIN?

Tell me something, was it possible for Thomas to stop believing in that which he had absolute personal knowledge of was a truth (he seen Jesus Christ for himself) ?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Thomas seen and then Thomas believed in Jesus Christ

.

HP: That would suggest that he was NOT a believer until Christ spoke to him after the resurrection. I am not certain of that. There were obviously aspects concerning Christ that he must have believed and exercised faith, and there were some that he did not. I will let God figure that out.

Steaver: His belief did not end when he saw Jesus, he had no faith, his faith began when he saw Jesus. Was Thomas' faith going to end when he saw Jesus AGAIN?

HP: Faith covers more than one aspect of our salvation and knowledge of God in general. Faith does dissapate as absolute knowledge is realized, but that does not negate the fact that there are still some areas that faith is still in vogue and for that matter, might be for eternity. Faith, as it relates to our salvation, will cease when we see Him.

Steaver: Tell me something, was it possible for Thomas to stop believing in that which he had absolute personal knowledge of was a truth (he seen Jesus Christ for himself) ?

HP: I am not certain exactly what you are addressing here, whether it be the mere existence of a resurrected Christ, or saving faith. I will venture a guess, and say that it is entirely possible that over time and via the deceitfulness of sin and the influences of evil, that deception at some point in the future is indeed a ‘possibility’ for any of us in this present world. Hence the warning “Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Oh Lord, I believe, help Thou mine unbelief.

Oh lord I have faith. Help me Lord in those areas of my life that I might bee seen to be devoid of, lacking, or of little faith! Strengthen my belief, and increase my faith oh Lord!

 

[steaver]

Faith, as it relates to our salvation, will cease when we see Him.

Then you would be saying that the disciples had no faith in Jesus Christ for salvation because they already seen him.

 

[steaver]

I will venture a guess, and say that it is entirely possible that over time and via the deceitfulness of sin and the influences of evil, that deception at some point in the future is indeed a ‘possibility’ for any of us in this present world.

Not what i am saying. I am speaking about a conscience choice, not deception. Thomas seen Jesus Christ risen from the dead. Can he then choose to not believe what he has seen?

He could "say" he doesn't believe, but in his heart he would know what he has seen. To say it is not true would be just a lie for him and would make no sense anyways.

Deception is not a possiblity for the Holy Spirit is always testifying to us of the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord. One cannot stop believing this. (Christian that is)

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Then you would be saying that the disciples had no faith in Jesus Christ for salvation because they already seen him.

HP: Faith concerning what? Salvation, or His physical existence as a human or the miracles that He performed, etc? There were indeed specific areas that at one time might have been held by faith that no longer had to be held by faith, but that is not to say that as long as they remained in this present world, ‘concerning eternal life,’ something they had NOT received as of yet in as a full understandable reality, but rather held that promise as something yet to be received, something to be longed and hoped for, something to wait for with patience, i.e. hearing those word, “Well done thou good and faithful servant, ‘enter into’..” , it would be impossible for them to please God apart from faith. I believe they pleased God and therefore were exercising faith.

 

[mark1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1
When we get to Heaven and eternal life, will we still have "faith"??

If you do not mind, please answer whether we will have "faith" in Heaven.



HP: Interesting question Mark1, and an interesting response by DHK. :thumbs:

Let me ask DHK, are you now in possession of absolute knowledge of your final standing with God? If so, how can it be said that you walk by faith in the here and now, something you say will NOT be present when we get to heaven?

Questions for all the list:

Can one hold anything by faith and at the same time hold it as absolute knowledge? Does the term absolute knowledge predispose of any element of uncertainty or error? If we hold our salvation by absolute knowledge, is deception even possible, and would there ever be a need to examine our faith to see if it is based on solid evidence? What is the meaning of the following verses? Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God…..and this one 1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

AW!!! You robbed me...........:laugh:

 

[mark1]

Not what i am saying. I am speaking about a conscience choice, not deception. Thomas seen Jesus Christ risen from the dead. Can he then choose to not believe what he has seen?

He could "say" he doesn't believe, but in his heart he would know what he has seen. To say it is not true would be just a lie for him and would make no sense anyways.

Deception is not a possiblity for the Holy Spirit is always testifying to us of the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord. One cannot stop believing this. (Christian that is)

Thomas had not seen himself "risen" from the dead, that is where his faith was and where mine is.

After I am risen from the dead and enter into Heaven and my eternal life, I will not need faith anymore. I have recieved the promise then.

 

[DHK]

Then you would be saying that the disciples had no faith in Jesus Christ for salvation because they already seen him.

Over and over again the disciples asked Christ if it would be NOW that He would set up His Kingdom. Their faith was misplaced.
Many times did Christ tell them that he must need die. They did not believe. They did not have faith.
He told them that he would rise again. Even after his death, they were unbelieving. They had no faith, only confusion.

Faith is always in the unseen. As far as Christ was concerned it was faith in Christ as the Messiah as the one to save, or even as the one to come and set up his Kingdom. Remember the words of Andrew to Peter: "Come and see, we have found the Messiah." His faith was that they had found the Messiah. They had found a man, Jesus Christ. It was yet unseen to them that he was the Messiah that the OT spoke of. That remained to be seen. For the meantime they had to walk by faith that his promises to them were true.

We must do the same thing.
They had Christ in the flesh.
Christ left us his living Word.
Only when we get to heaven will that faith be fully realized and no longer needed. In heaven there will be no need of faith. All will be revealed. All was not revealed to the Apostles. All is not revealed to us. We walk by faith and not by sight. When we see Jesus, we will not need faith. There is no need of faith in heaven just as there is no need of hope in heaven. Will you still hope for the coming of the Lord in heaven. Will you need to put your faith in Christ in heaven, that his promises are true? I hope not.

 

[steaver]

Faith is always in the unseen.

We generaly agree on things DHK, but how can i agree with this statement when Jesus said....

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

 

[steaver]

Only when we get to heaven will that faith be fully realized and no longer needed. In heaven there will be no need of faith. All will be revealed.

All of what will be revealed? All of my salvation? I already know whom I have believed. I already know I will be in heaven. I already know Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. I already know I have eternal life.

"know" means CERTAIN!

This is why it is said, I have faith in Jesus Christ. Because I know by the Spirit He has given me which testifies within me daily of these things and also testifies that the scriptures I read about such things is true and guaranteed.

 

[mark1]

All of what will be revealed? All of my salvation? I already know whom I have believed. I already know I will be in heaven. I already know Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. I already know I have eternal life.

"know" means CERTAIN!

This is why it is said, I have faith in Jesus Christ. Because I know by the Spirit He has given me which testifies within me daily of these things and also testifies that the scriptures I read about such things is true and guaranteed.

guaranteed is the magic word!!!
The saved's resurrection from the dead, will be revealed. Heaven itself, will be revealed, Their glorified body will be revealed. God on His throne will be revealed. I also want to see the Elders and the angels.

We hope for that which we have not seen. Have you seen Heaven? Will you still need faith to walk by when you get to Heaven? I will walk by sight myself. What will you say? I believe I am in Heaven? I believe that is Jesus Christ? I believe that is God?

Faith is the "substance" (or what hope is made of) of things hoped for, the evidence ( in other words, all you have is faith, for you have not been resurrected yet, or seen Heaven) of things "not seen".

You can say you have seen it all you want, but it just ain't so.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mark1: You can say you have seen it all you want, but it just ain't so.

HP: Excellent point. :thumbs:

Only by faith do we now see it, and that is NOT hope realized in its finality, or what yet would we hope for? 1Pe 1:13 ¶ Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

We now have ‘the earnest’ of that which is the object of our faith. 2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.