Featured You shall surely die

No "spiritual aspect" has yet been brought forth from Scripture as a basis for your statement. Adam was of the earth, earthy. That is what Scripture does teach about him. He was not spiritual, as the Second Man was.

What He lost was the physical relationship he had with God in the Garden, and this because he was thrust out. He walked with God physically in the Garden (and I believe this was the Son of God, specifically).

Could you address the following Scripture, please:

1 Corinthians 15 KJV

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.


God bless.

 

Do you think that Jesus was born with the same human nature that we all have then?

 

Adam had no need of a savior until he spiritually died!

 

Our humanity is fallen and sinful, correct?

 

Darrell, I think that what I am getting ready to tell you is extremely important to my point. Adam was not born of a woman. He was a created being. He did not come into the world and then later receive the Spirit. He was given the Spirit of God, making him partaker of the divine nature from his beginning. God did not create him needing to be saved, if by being saved the scriptures teach receiving the Spirit of God into the body, which it does. The Spirit is eternal because he is God. God did not say to Adam that he had eternal life, he said he was created in the image of God. This means he is created a trinity, body, soul, and Spirit. A careful study of Jesus Christ and his person as a man will teach us that he was the express image of God while he was in the flesh upon the earth. Each of these two men are considered to be the heads of their own race and each of them produce after their own kind. In the case of Adam it was his kind after his fall, which was in his own image of body and soul, but without the Spirit. In the case of Jesus Christ, all who are born of God through faith in him are given the gift of his Spirit, who is life and who is eternal, and who is God, and with the promise that he will never leave us or forsake us, even when we commit sin.

All who have the Spirit of God, angels or men, are called the sons of God. Only two individual men during the OT times, which ended at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, are called the sons of God. They are Adam in Luke 3:38 and of course Jesus Christ. Adam is the first Adam and Jesus Christ is the last Adam, Adam was the first man and Jesus Christ is the second man. Now, all who have the Spirit, who is given to us and is the occasion and means of our being born into the family of God and becoming sons of God, of which Jesus Christ is the first at his resurrection, when the Spirit of God from heaven and his soul from paradise entered into his body at the tomb and raised him from the dead and glorified his body.

1 Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

When did John the apostle become a son of God and how did it happen? Do we know? Are we told? The answer is yes. Consider this info carefully. Here;

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

When Jesus breathes on someone they receive life. This is how a man becomes a partaker of the divine nature.

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

The new birth is a new creation of God. It is a trinity.


You might remember that even angels in Gen 6 and Job 1 and 2 are called sons of God. Why? Because they were created with the Spirit of God.


I appreciate you taking the time to read this and if there is something in my understanding that needs correcting, I pray the Spirit will enlighten my mind about it and God would be glorified. I am out of time to post any more til later.

 

Then explain why Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Adam was natural, and thus quite capable of sin. That is why he sinned, lol.

There was never a scenario, even before the world was created, that Adam would not have sinned and thus needed a savior.

I'm still waiting for someone to show "the spiritual death of Adam" in Scripture.

I've given you Scripture that states Adam was not spiritual. What more can be said?

God bless.

 

Were we not all affected by the fall of dam, as now were all born with a sin nature?

 

Thanks, JD, I appreciate the time it must have taken to create this response. I hope my own response will be satisfactory, and that through discussion we can work through this issue and come to agreement, as we are commanded to do, lol.

As mentioned in an earlier post, both Adam and the living creatures were created the same way. They were given life and became living souls. So that when God breathed Spirit into them it is not to be equated to the Life Christ came to bring. again, if Adam had eternal life, and this was through a direct indwelling of God, then ...

1. So did the Animals;

2. Eternal Life wasn't eternal, because it was lost.

I agree with that: Eternal Salvation occurs when we are baptized into Christ and are indwelt by God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

That Adam was not born separated from God does not change the fact that those who are Born Again are born again based on the Resurrection of Christ (1 Peter 1:3). Not only had the Word not manifested in flesh during Adam's day, He had not died or rose again. I can appreciate the idea that Adam had "eternal Life" from God, but something that is eternal or everlasting cannot be "lost." Scripture consistently teacher Eternal Security, so there is a discrepancy with this idea and that which Scripture consistently teaches.

Furthermore, we are told Adam was not spiritual:

1 Corinthians 15 KJV

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Both Christ and Adam were created by God. Adam of the elements of the ground, and Christ in the womb of Mary. So we can strike the argument that this is only referring to the glorified body.

Paul clearly states "...he who was not first (Christ) was spiritual, but that which was natural (Adam) was first. The spiritual came after the natural (v.45)."

Then he clarifies by saying "The first man (Adam) was of the earth, earthy." It really doesn't get too much clearer than that. Paul doesn't say, "The second man started out earthy," but distinguishes between the creation of Christ and that of Adam.

Christ was not made a living soul, as Adam and all living creatures were. A living soul consists of a body and a spirit. Nowhere do we see that Adam was indwelt by God. Besides, lol, the indwelling of God doesn't make man three parts. He is still distinct from us. Secondly, a three-part person is usually defined as body, spirit, and soul (the soul being an immaterial aspect of man's make-up, rather than the indwelling of God).

That hasn't changed:

Acts 17 KJV

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


This is the same as saying "We are the children, or sons of God."


1 Corinthians 11 KJV

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.


That man was made in the image and likeness of God hasn't changed. That Seth was made in Adam's likeness and image doesn't mean that Man is no longer made in the image and likeness of God. Seth is the result of procreation, rather than creation, as Adam and Christ were.

Not exactly sure how that is relevant to Adam being indwelt by God. The body, soul, and spirit of man are in relation to men, not God. I'm not sure if you read the post concerning the soul, if not, perhaps you could take a look to see where I come from on that issue. All living creatures in the creation account are said to be "living souls." Adam became a "living soul, just as whales and other living creatures are said to be "living souls." The difference between man and beasts is that man is made in the likeness and image of God.

I will continue this, I don't want to get logged out, lol.

 

I agree: Adam produced earthy descendants, and Christ produces spiritual children.

This cannot be supported, my friend: that man has a spirit is a basic teaching of all of Scripture.

Consider:

Numbers 16 KJV

20 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.

22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?


Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.


All living creatures are living souls made of a spirit and a body. It is proper to call a spirit that departs from the body a soul because they are till the "person" that was in the body.


Continued...

 

So are the unsaved:

Acts 17 KJV

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Not entirely true:

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

God was considered their father, making them children of God in a general sense, even as Angels are children of God in a general sense, even demons Job 1:6).

Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Malachi 2 KJV

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?


The fatherhood of God is universal in the sense that He is the Creator. There are numerous passages this concept is seen in, and detracts from a dogmatic view concerning "the sons of God."

But there is a difference between the two. Christ was born of a woman but not described as earthy, or of the earth.

1 Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
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This sonship is different and has a point in time where we can dogmatically say it began:


John 1:11-13 KJV

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It began when Christ was manifest in the flesh:

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Again, I can recognize and appreciate the argument that Adam was indwelt by God, but it doesn't hold up against the scrutiny of Scripture.

Becoming sons of God in the New Covenant/New Testament sense is different than anything that had taken place before.


John 14:15-23 KJV

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


God walked with Adam, not in Adam as Christ foretells will take place for the disciples. Again, if Adam were eternally indwelt and the Spirit of God resided in Him as we see He will here, then Adam lost what is supposed to be eternal. Making it not eternal or everlasting.

Adam's source for everlasting life is shown in the account of the fall:

Genesis 3 KJV

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We have to give the direct statement of Scripture precedence over what isn't written. Adam dying is the result of being thrust from the Garden and access to the Tree of Life. That we know it isn't metaphorical is implied by another reference to the Tree of Life:

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Eternal Life is not a result of the tree, neither for Adam or for the redeemed. However, it is the reason God thrust him out, that he would not have everlasting life.


Continued...

 

This is simply the command to receive the Holy Ghost, the Comforter—when He comes.

It is not possible that they received the Holy Sprit at this time based on Christ's teaching:

John 16:7 KJV

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

It is the Comforter that Christ prophesies of throughout His ministry. Here we see that the Spirit could not come until He left, and He had not left at this point.

Here is another reference:


John 7:38-39 KJV

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


On the Day of Christ's Ascension the disciples have still not received the Spirit:

Acts 1:4-5 KJV

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


That the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the moment of salvation is seen here:


Acts 11:13-18 KJV

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Many believe the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is an empowerment. It is not, we see that here. These men are baptized with the Holy Ghost and it is said to be through the "words whereby they were saved."

Here are a few disciples who had not so much as heard of the Spirit, much less received Him:


Acts 19:1-6 KJV

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Christ is the Baptizer:


Matthew 3:11-12 KJV

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


In views a baptism unto salvation, the baptism with the Holy Ghost (the gathering of His wheat into His garner), and a baptism of Eternal Judgment (the burning up of the chaff with unquenchable fire).

And the simple truth is that no one is said to be in Christ prior to Pentecost. Scripture does not say "There is none righteous since Adam fell."


Continued...

 

I'll see your 2 Peter and raise with a 1 John:

1 John 5:1-5 KJV

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Would not have Adam have "overcome the world" if he were born of God in the New Covenant sense?

Secondly, in the New Covenant/Testament sense those who are born of God are born of God through believing Jesus is the Son of God.

So again, there is a difference when we speak about who are the "sons of God." Being called sons of God, or children of God doesn't make them all comparable.

Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Correct. Keeping the Law cannot save. Never did, never will.

Correct again. You are on a roll, JD.

You might remember that even angels in Gen 6 and Job 1 and 2 are called sons of God. Why? Because they were created with the Spirit of God.
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But if we stay true to what is generally taught about man being a trichotomy, then when man receives the eternal indwelling of God he becomes a quadriplex.

If you throw in the fact that God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (and all are one), then we have a new creature that is sextuplet in nature.

Just kidding.

And they are simply spirits. There is no way to imply the indwelling of God in demons. No Scriptural basis to do so with holy angels, either.

Their sonship is based on God creating them, just as Adam's is, just as the children of Israel's is, and just as the unsaved Paul sought to see saved on Mars Hill.

I hope you know all of this is given in love, my friend, not in hostility. I appreciate you taking the time to be as specific and detailed in laying out the Biblical Basis for your view.

It is my view that we test our own views first when we post them. That is my desire, to have my own views tested by the views of other believers. I think we can see both an accelerated growth in understanding as well as a more finely-tuned understanding, and I appreciate all of the discussions I am able to take part in.

God bless.

 

Yes, we were all affected.

But no, we were not born with a sin nature in the sense that sin is a disease passed from parent to child. We sin because we are separated from God. No man is born with the Spirit of God. Nor is man born into the relationship Adam and Eve had when they were created.

Man's great malady is his separation from God. The remedy is reconciliation through Christ. He died, taking our sins upon Himself, taking our penalty for sin (death) that we would not have to die:

John 6

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Now I ask you, did Adam eat of the flesh and drink of the blood (believe on) Jesus Christ?

The answer is no, first, because Christ had not yet died, and secondly because the Gospel (the account of the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ) was a mystery not revealed to men from before the world was formed:

1 Corinthians 2 KJV

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


That Adam would sin was not unknown to God prior to his fall. The Gospel is the hidden wisdom of God, ordained before the world even began.


Colossians 1:25-27 KJV

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


If Adam had been indwelt by Christ, it wouldn't be said it had not been revealed in times past to Ages and Generations.

The glory of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ is the indwelling of Christ. That was never revealed in the past Ages, but is now made manifest to His saints.


Romans 16:25-26 KJV

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


In verse 26 Paul is teaching about the mystery through the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament. Isaiah 53, for example. You and I can understand what it depicts, but they could not. The Gospel was given to Abraham, but it was veiled:


Galatians 3 KJV

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


You and I can understand why the nations of the earth were/are blessed through Abraham's seed (Christ), but Abraham could not. Because the Gospel of Christ was not revealed to them that they might understand it.


God bless.

 

So Jesus was born with a sin nature then, as all of us were?