Young Punks and Old Codgers

[John of Japan]

How about it? Take the poll, please. I'd like to know if respect for elders is still alive in America.

Growing up, I was taught to show respect to all older people. We said "Yes sir" and "No Ma'am," didn't talk back, didn't make fun of older people. I may have been out of the States for too long, but judging by some of the young folk on the BB, that custom has gone by the wayside. They mock older people, they insult us, they condescend to us. And woe be to the old codger who rebukes the young punk. He gets it worse then!

Now, Confucianism teaches the same respect for elders, so the Japanese language has a whole category of words and grammar for showing respect called keigo, or "respect words." It's starting to die out among young people though, just like in the States, and school teachers I know have shared how arrogant and disrespectful the young people are.

Note that the Japanese have two concepts: true respect from the heart, and formal respect. My translation partner, Uncle Miya, illustrates formal respect as being a Marine guard who doesn't like the President but salutes the office.

I believe formal respect for old folk is Biblical. Moses wrote, "Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD" (Lev. 19:32).

I believe also that elderly servants of Jesus Christ are "worthy of double honor" (1 Tim. 5:17). I truly respect men like Jim 1999, Dr. Bob and others who have served God faithfully for decades, even though our theology is different. We should honor them. But I don't see that in many of the young people on the BB. Thank God for those who do.

This year I turn 60, and my old evangelism partner Habazaki San says that's when you turn old. I've been preaching the Word since 1970, when I was 18. I don't know. Is it worth it to someday move back to America for retirement? What are the young people like?

 

[tinytim]

I voted No one deserves respect just because they are old. Not because I don't respect older people... I respect all people, and age doesn't matter. I will not bow to false doctrine just because an older person is teaching it.

I respect that person as much as I do younger people...

Just because someone has rode around the sun on this globe more times than others does not automatically mean they deserve more respect than others.

Respect should be earned.

The men of God that you wrote about JoJ, have earned respect.. and I do respect them..

When I get older I don't want people respecting me just because I am older, I want them respecting me because of my integrity, and character.

 

[nodak]

Wow--Jim--tinytim's response pretty much sums up the American attitude these days.

God's Word has us respect our elders. As to false teaching, of course we rebuke it even if it comes from our elders, but respectfully.

The attitude here today is to assume the older folks are dinosaurs and the young punks know everything we dinosaurs are tooooo stupid to know.

Of course, I don't think they realize what they are teaching their kids' generation. I don't want to see how that generation treats the "dinosaurs".

Just riding around the sun more times than someone else has MIGHT give one experience that is valuable, and some wisdom.

But what do I know--I'm just an old dinosaur.

 

[sag38]

I see there being a between place between Nodak and TinyTim. I treat older people with respect. I use "yes sir" and "no sir" but I don't blindly follow them because they have been around longer than I have. It is clear that some of my elders aren't following God's word. They are following the traditions of man and confusing them with "Thus saith the Lord." Sometimes I agree with Nodak and at other times I feel like she calls plays from the "Pharisees are Us" handbook.

 

[exscentric]

Kinda fit both ideas, I was a young punk -- way too many years ago and I went with oldcodger as an internet name for several years soooooo

I am totally surprised at the respect spanish folks show me in stores, many call me sir and there is no need for it. I have salespeople asking if I need a cart all the time even though I carry 8-10 bags of groceries into the house at once.

Guess I look a lot worse than I think I am Then again maybe I'm in worse shape than I think I am.

 

[Winman]

Alright! I've still got three years before I'm old.

It does irk me a little when a young person who has been saved only a few years and has probably never read through the Bible to tell me I don't understand scripture. Then they quote some theologian(s), not knowing if their views are scriptural or not. And some are downright arrogant.

That is a general observation, different people apply themselves differently, but it is generally true.

What can you say? We thought we knew everything when we were young, now we know that we barely know anything. They'll find out just like we did.

Elderly folks should be respected, if only for their experience. I had a young kid ridicule me at work once, because I make much higher pay and perform a technical job which looked "easy" to him. He said I don't do anything. I told him to come back in 40 years and tell me if he still feels the same way.

All you have to do to get old is stick around, but it is not as easy as it sounds!

 

[Winman]

Alright! I've still got three years before I'm old.

It does irk me a little when a young person who has been saved only a few years and has probably never read through the Bible to tell me I don't understand scripture. Then they quote some theologian(s), not knowing if their views are scriptural or not. And some are downright arrogant.

That is a general observation, different people apply themselves differently, but it is generally true.

What can you say? We thought we knew everything when we were young, now we know that we barely know anything. They'll find out just like we did.

Elderly folks should be respected, if only for their experience. I had a young kid ridicule me at work once, because I make much higher pay and perform a technical job which looked "easy" to him. He said I don't do anything. I told him to come back in 40 years and tell me if he still feels the same way.

All you have to do to get old is stick around, but it is not as easy as it sounds!

 

[Winman]

By the way John, our pastor mentioned your grandfather John R. Rice today. We are going to do a very detailed study of the Holy Spirit in Sunday School, and he said your grandfather wrote the greatest book ever (in his opinion) on this subject. I look forward to it.

 

[HAMel]

John, there is absolutely no respect any more in America for elders such as it was when I was a kid/young adult and certainly not the respect for elders such as it is in Japan.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Ha! I have 13 years before I'm old!

Respect and honor are funny things. I give lip service respect to everyone. Which means I'm polite until I have reason not to be polite. (and it does take quite a bit to cause me to be impolite)

But true respect must be earned. I'm polite to my parents, but I don't respect them. Which means I'm not about to pattern my life on theirs! What have their 70+ years gotten them besides an estranged family? They aren't even members of the church they've attended for nearly 20 years! (by their own personal choice) What kind of respect am I supposed to have?

JoJ I do have true respect for. His choices wouldn't fit my lifestyle, but then again, I wasn't called to the mission field either. But I can respect the evidence of the fruits of the Spirit that show in his posting style. And being respectful of others, being polite, is part of that evidence. I can also respect his years of service for the Lord. There again is the evidence of a Spirit filled life.

But there are couple of folks here (some who are no younger than I am) who do not garner the same sort of respect. I don't think twice before I post something snarky in response to them as I would JoJ, because they haven't earned my respect. Just the same there are a couple of people in real life that I also am not exactly polite too.

I teach my children to be respectful to anyone who is an adult and/or older than them, but if the witch that lives at the end of the street yells at them for walking the leashed dog on the city right of way in front of her house, *I* am not going to be so polite to her about 10 minutes later when I call her on it. Some people don't deserve respect because of their own actions and she's one of them. (amazing how things changed when it was *her* kids walking their dog on the right of way in front of *my* house. Suddenly there was nothing wrong with that. )

 

[Benjamin]

I would say I almost always automatically give older people a much higher level of respect than the general population. There is often a lot of grace involved in this though because although I am very fond and appreciative of the wisdom that comes with age I have also learned to take more caution with accepting everything they say and do at face value. I have explained it to my kids like this: When a person spends their whole life practicing being sweet and kind and generous by the time they become old they are very good at it, OTOH, if they have spent their whole life being mean, nasty, sneaky and putting themselves first they also become very good at that; or like most of us there may be a combination of good and bad habits they have practiced their whole life, either way we should have more respect for what they learned and always use the golden rule.

That said, imagine the “young punk” that goes around mocking and disrespecting the oldest, wisest and most experienced members of our population all his life.The one that without a thought mocks and calls his elders "old codgers" showing no respect for other's learning. What is a person like that practicing, and what is he learning, and what will he become in “his” old age??? What will he have added to society and what has he taught others, and what should he expect in the way he is treated by the younger generation when he is old?

Side note: Guys, they say the 60’s is the new 40’s. So the way I figure it I’m in the new 30’s now so I have a long time before I have to worry about being “old” at 60.

 

[Gina B]

I voted for the first one.

The way things are in the United States makes me sad. Yes, living a number of years more than I have earns you my respect unless you end up being a jerk, but the majority of elderly people, in my experience, have a lot of knowledge to impart and have been part of the shaping of our culture and country, no matter what time frame it was. Their votes over the years, any involvement they had, any job they had...why should I not have respect for them and listen to what they can teach me and my children?

I understand why it's becoming lost though. The government has stepped in for parents, nursing homes have stepped in for grandparents. Sometimes needed but usually not.

So why should the younger listen to their elders? They see that if they don't like how we raise them, they can have government workers in your home investigating you in a heartbeat. They see their grandparents go to nursing homes, they'll probably put us in them, so why should they raise their kids to respect them either since that's all it's gonna end up to be? They don't need their grandparents, they don't need their parents, and they don't need their kids. Who wants responsibility if they don't have to have it? Pretty much nobody, except a decent few who believe in Christian morals and decent human behavior and stand by them despite the surroundings, which stink. Just plain stink. The only elderly people who seem to get any respect in our nation either financially or physically profit someone else. That's what people give respect to. How someone can be used in that way...forget memories and life lessons and knowledge, there's internet now and everyone is free to come to their own conclusions without anything to back it up because hey, free thinking rocks. (ever notice most self-acclaimed free thinkers don't come up with a solitary thought of their own?!) Stinky stinky stinky!

 

[righteousdude2]

Young Punks Will One Day Be Geezers!

The youth of today is headstrong, overconfident and sometimes disrespectful. Much like myself, when I was a young "Whippersnapper" wet-behind-the-ears and fresh out of college.

What young punk doesn't believe they know it all? It hasn't changed over the years, and it will probably never change in the future. However, one thing is for sure: You young guns need to know that the rust of time and age will one day be your mantle too, and what goes around, comes around.

Like many of you who have responded, I was taught to respect my elders, and I did just that. However, that didn't mean I shouldn't challenge them when they were off base and caught up in the infamous church killer phrase: "...Because we've always done it that way!"

I discovered, as a young punk, that the new ways could be successfully melded with the old ways, as long as the ability to compromise was a two way street. However, too many of the elders I came into contact with as a young preacher was so set in their ways, compromise was not spoken in their camp, thus. You had to wait them out, and by that time, I was middle age, even more knowledgeable than I was 10 to 20 years earlier, and growing more set in my ways, and coming off brash and difficult to deal with for those who were once my age, and fresh out of college with a shiny new BA degree in one hand, and a boat load of fresh new ideas in the other.

What made me stiff necked at middle age, was that it took me twenty years to get to the place where I know longer had to succumb to the "set in their way bunch" and I felt I had finally earned my right to lead as I felt led to lead, and I was reluctant to let some young punk come in and just run things a new and better way.

You can see where this is going. It is a never ending, vicious circle, and it could all be put to rest if the elderly would be as willing to compromise and release as we young punks were once left with no other alternatives to do but capitulate.

Advice to young punks is simple: one day, very, very soon, you too will be a geezer, hoping for some form of respect. Life, as the Scripture says, passes oh, so quickly. Like a vapor, it is here one day, and gone the next.

I have finally come to understand what the old folks meant when they'd sit around and commiserate that time seems to be flying by. The older we are. The quicker time goes, and when it seemed like some days would never come to an end, it is now amazing just how little time in each day I have to do the things that once filled a day's agenda on a to do list. What I once could do in a day's time, now must be divided equally over several days or weeks. AMAZING!

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[DHK]

I voted No one deserves respect just because they are old. Not because I don't respect older people... I respect all people, and age doesn't matter. I will not bow to false doctrine just because an older person is teaching it.

A false doctrine???

Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19:32)

Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he. (Job 32:4)

And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion. (Job 32:6)

The hoary head is a crown of glory, if it be found in the way of righteousness. (Proverbs 16:31)

The glory of young men is their strength: and the beauty of old men is the gray head. (Proverbs 20:29)

Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. (1 Timothy 5:1-2)

 

[Jerome]

Surprised no one's mentioned this yet:

II Kings 2:23-35
And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

 

[Thousand Hills]

(1) Here is an age distribution poll I set up a few months ago.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=70659

(2) I fall in the younger category here on BB (30 to 40), if I've ever have been disrespectful to anyone I truly apologize. Sometimes I try to joke around, and I think given the media it may not come across the right way. (BTW we prefer Whippersnappers to Young Punks :laugh

(3) Most of our church is senior adults. Before we joined we talked about the fact that there were few young couples our age. My stance was that (a) the church needs young people our age, and (b) I can learn from those who have been in the faith a long time, better than someone my own age (who think they know it all). We are surrounded by folks who have experienced all kinds of ups and downs in life. We have recieved a great blessing, when people tell us they will pray for us I know they will. I see them being faithful in attendance and in all other aspects, and it encourages me. They haven't packed it in and decided to spend their time playing golf and fishing, they are still faithfully serving the Lord. I hope that in some way we have been a blessing and encouragement to them as well.

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks for all the good comments. I'm encouraged. The great majority who responded to the poll voted either the first or the second points.

Tinytim voted that no one deserves respect just because they are old, but he also said that he respects everyone, so I'm not sure what's going on there. Tim, did you check one of the first two as well?

DHK gave some excellent Scriptures showing I'm on the right wavelength. DHK, is your head hoary yet?

A number of people caught the difference between true respect from the heart, and formal respect. I think we should show respect for age in our attitude, not necessarily always have true respect for the aged. My wife when she was young worked in an old folks home, and there was an old German man who was dying. He was a vicious, selfish old man, but Patty felt sorry for him in his dying days, and showed him kindness.

Some things America could learn in this area from heathen, Buddhist Japan:

(1) National Respect for the Aged Day in September.
(2) "Grey Seats" on the trains reserved for old folk.
(3) Many houses have a separate apartment, usually with its own door, for the aged parents.
(4) TV advertisements from the government urging respect for old people.
(5) Distinctive 4-leaf-clover green and yellow magnets on cars driven by old people so that we show them special consideration.

 

[John of Japan]

Kinda fit both ideas, I was a young punk -- way too many years ago and I went with oldcodger as an internet name for several years soooooo

I am totally surprised at the respect spanish folks show me in stores, many call me sir and there is no need for it. I have salespeople asking if I need a cart all the time even though I carry 8-10 bags of groceries into the house at once.

Guess I look a lot worse than I think I am Then again maybe I'm in worse shape than I think I am.

Interestingly enough, Spanish is another language besides Japanese that has special "respect language" words.

 

[John of Japan]

By the way John, our pastor mentioned your grandfather John R. Rice today. We are going to do a very detailed study of the Holy Spirit in Sunday School, and he said your grandfather wrote the greatest book ever (in his opinion) on this subject. I look forward to it.

I have a dozen books on the Holy Spirit, but Grandpa's The Power of Pentecost and the Fullness of the Holy Spirit is still the best in my (completely unbiased) opinion. I've read it through several times.

 

[John of Japan]

Ha! I have 13 years before I'm old!

Respect and honor are funny things. I give lip service respect to everyone. Which means I'm polite until I have reason not to be polite. (and it does take quite a bit to cause me to be impolite)

But true respect must be earned. I'm polite to my parents, but I don't respect them. Which means I'm not about to pattern my life on theirs! What have their 70+ years gotten them besides an estranged family? They aren't even members of the church they've attended for nearly 20 years! (by their own personal choice) What kind of respect am I supposed to have?

JoJ I do have true respect for. His choices wouldn't fit my lifestyle, but then again, I wasn't called to the mission field either. But I can respect the evidence of the fruits of the Spirit that show in his posting style. And being respectful of others, being polite, is part of that evidence. I can also respect his years of service for the Lord. There again is the evidence of a Spirit filled life.

But there are couple of folks here (some who are no younger than I am) who do not garner the same sort of respect. I don't think twice before I post something snarky in response to them as I would JoJ, because they haven't earned my respect. Just the same there are a couple of people in real life that I also am not exactly polite too.

I teach my children to be respectful to anyone who is an adult and/or older than them, but if the witch that lives at the end of the street yells at them for walking the leashed dog on the city right of way in front of her house, *I* am not going to be so polite to her about 10 minutes later when I call her on it. Some people don't deserve respect because of their own actions and she's one of them. (amazing how things changed when it was *her* kids walking their dog on the right of way in front of *my* house. Suddenly there was nothing wrong with that. )

Thanks for the kind words, menageriekeeper.

You've captured my position well with this post. I believe old folks especially should receive "lip service" respect, but I reserve true respect for those who have earned it.

Along the line of lip service respect, since Bill Clinton and his shennanigans, respect for the office of POTUS has diminished greatly. But Americans used to say, "Let's respect the office even if we disagree with the man's position. I haven't heard that lately. (But then I'm in Japan, not America. :smilewinkgrin