Your Actions Tell What You Are

[johnp.]

I disagree with you Martin. 1 Cor 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.

It is by grace that we are saved and by keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus is the only way to be. If we keep our eyes on ourselves we are not keeping our eyes on Him.

Jesus said, "If you love me you will obey." Some have little love some have more. We should not look down and frighten the Children with fears of works but comfort them with God's promise, I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. In the end there were ten virgins five of whom were saved. All asleep until the return of the Lord.

john.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

sure many are backslidden and thye stay that way far to long because the church has abandoned church discipline. When we see a Christian Brother or Sister in Sin we are to go to them in reproof so as to bring them back in to an approrpiate walk with God. But we don't and our churches are full of backslidden and of lost people. the purity of the chruch has been lost.

 

[npetreley]

sure many are backslidden and thye stay that way far to long because the church has abandoned church discipline. When we see a Christian Brother or Sister in Sin we are to go to them in reproof so as to bring them back in to an approrpiate walk with God. But we don't and our churches are full of backslidden and of lost people. the purity of the chruch has been lost.

I don't use the term backsliding, but I agree with you for the most part that churches have adopted a "don't make waves" and "if it doesn't make our members feel good we won't do it" philosophy. But the pendulum swings back and forth. The church has persecuted people unjustly, even putting people to death. Now it lets members make a habit of committing adultery without saying a word.

What's the solution? I have no idea. I have enough to deal with.

 

[ituttut]

If you are truly a follower of Jesus Christ you will obey Him. Nobody has ever said that such obedience would be perfect or that failure is not a reality (1Jn 1:9, 2:1-2) however if you are a true Christian the “direction” of your life will be obedience to Christ.

We " ...walk by faith, not by sight", II Corinthians 5:7. In Him we are made righteous; not by being obedient.

In him we are complete. Colossians 2:9-14, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross".

This is justification of the Gentiles.

 

[gerald285]

Hello webdog
First off the law had not been given in lot's life. Second please give the reference where God called Lot backslidden. Third the old testament saints did not have the Holy Spirit in them. The church is totally different then the time of the law. No Christian is EVER called a backslider in scripture. That term is used under law to designate those who are lost as a nation, not those individuals who are saved and living in sin. If a person is living in sin they are lost, not backslidden.

Someone needs to tell God there is no such thing as a backslidden, disobedient righteous person. I recall Him calling Lot just that.

 

[Brother Bob]

Christian is to be Christ-like. If you do not have any good fruit then you are not Christ-like and doubtful to me if you are a Christian.

 

[webdog]

==Actually Scripture does tell us what happens to those who bear no fruit:

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned" -Jn 15:6

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" -Matt 7:19-20

"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother" -1Jn 3:10

"Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." -1Jn 3:7

To understand those verses the way you are presenting them would mean true believers lose their salvation. A great book I read, Secrets of the Vine by Brice Wilkinson does an excellent job explaining the meaning of those illustrations. I don't have the time to go into it now.

 

[webdog]

First off the law had not been given in lot's life.

God's Law is and has been written on all men's hearts.

Second please give the reference where God called Lot backslidden.

I would suggest re-reading the story. If you can't see a righteous Lot living in sin, I don't know what else to say.

Third the old testament saints did not have the Holy Spirit in them.

I believe this is irrelevant. We, who have the Holy Spirit still sin daily. It's a choice we make daily, and is no different pre or post NT.

The church is totally different then the time of the law.

righteous is righteous whether it's OT or NT.

No Christian is EVER called a backslider in scripture. That term is used under law to designate those who are lost as a nation, not those individuals who are saved and living in sin.

The term Trinity and rapture are not found in Scripture either. That really means nothing.

If a person is living in sin they are lost, not backslidden.

How many sins does it take to be "living in sin"? How many hours? Minutes? Days? If a person is living in sin...a person is living in sin, by the old nature and not the new. Paul is adamant about this very thing.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[Allan]

Webdog:

You assume a great deal if you are implying that because Lot lived in Sodom means he was living in sin.

That would be no different than if you lived in San Fansico (or America) and I said you were living in sin due to the place in which you lived in.

Please show one verse - Just one - where is states Lot lived in, participated in, or was apart of the ungodlyness that was predominent in his home city.

Scripture states he sat at it gates, which is culturaly known at that time amoung multiple culturals as a ro the position of a judge of the city. This is not some frivilous position and one of power and given to those who were impartial to the people and known for being just in their decisions. But if that is not enough, let us go back for a second to God and Abraham.

God never states there were NONE righteous in all of Sodom just that there are not 10 men righteous in all of Sodom. We know that God continued with His plan to destroy Sodom for its wickedness but God did something odd. God sent in two angels to get out Lot and his family. Why??
The answer is found in the prayful requests of Abraham to God concerning why God should NOT destroy it; ie. in case there were many, then a few, then a couple of righteous men living in Sodom, it would be unjust for God to destroy the city they lived in.
But since God could not find 10 righteous men in the city that the "CITY" might be saved, we find God going in to the city to bring out that righteous man who was still in the city before He destroyed it.
It was only 1 peson (man) they went to, Lot. And the Angels commanded Lot to get his family and leave BECAUSE God was going to judge the city for its sin, and COULD NOT do it until they were taken out of the way. (much like the tribulation huh. Oops but that is seperate issue for our friends :smilewinkgrin: )

There were not enough righteous men in the city to save THE CITY, but God is a just and righteous God who would not allow a righteous man to judged when he is guiltless. This is WHY they go in after Lot, since Abraham didn't ask God to spare him, but we can assume here Abraham was concerned for the life of Lot whom he knew lived there. It is quite possibly the reason for Abrahams arguement of letting the city be if there were ENOUGH righteous men in there.

God went in after Lot because God could not pass judgment as long as Lot was there, the angels even make this statement. It is also the reason the NT calls Lot - Just Lot. And the OT saints were accounted righteous for their belief and obedience to God.

 

[Allan]

I'm not saying there must be 'x' amount of fruit within 'y' amount of time or else we can deem that person an unregenerate and godless sinner.

It means that through their natural walking in life after their profession they WILL manifest the good fruit and obedience to God that scripture states will be their style of life, and is the evidence of their relationship with God.

 

[Martin]

To understand those verses the way you are presenting them would mean true believers lose their salvation. A great book I read, Secrets of the Vine by Brice Wilkinson does an excellent job explaining the meaning of those illustrations. I don't have the time to go into it now.

==I am pretty sure I can guess what Wilkinson says about those verses, probably about the same thing Hodges, Stanley, and Evans says. However those verses are clearly talking about those who, though outwardly connected to Christ, have no life in them and don't bear fruit. The result is they are cast away and thrown into the fire. These verses are not talking about the loss of salvation. Rather they are talking about the person who professes to be saved but who is not.

 

[johnp.]

God's Law is and has been written on all men's hearts.

It's not much use there webdog as men can't read men's hearts and any talking the individual does would be tainted by corruption. Another thought just occured. Since the law causes man to sin then writing it on their hearts is God causing man to sin.

I would suggest re-reading the story. If you can't see a righteous Lot living in sin, I don't know what else to say.

Righteous David had his sins exposed for the world to see but Lot, as you know, was mentioned in despatches. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 2 Peter 2:7.

Since you know about 2 Peter 2:7 it looks like you have set a bait. Would you like to say how you know of any of Lot's sins. I know of two.

If you can't see a righteous Lot living in sin, I don't know what else to say.

You could tell us what you have seen couldn't you, we're not all as smart as you think, don't you know? (There must be a trap around here somewhere but I can't see it.) (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) That is hard to overcome.
Some sins broadcast themselves and sometimes deductions made about other men are wrong. Am I witnessing the saying, Fly with the crows get shot with the crows? Are you judging the man by the company he kept?

No Christian is EVER called a backslider in scripture.

I don't mind using the word either. A backslider would be one that has not kept Paul's instruction, Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Php 3:16.

The rest of your post, "is webdog also amongst the Calvinists?

john.

 

[James_Newman]

1Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:1-12, 1Jn 2:3-6, 3:9-10, Rev 21:8

Those verses, I think, are frighteningly clear. I did not make this up or pull it out of thin air. Those who live in sin, as a way of life, are not saved. Yes believers can backslide and be disobedient "at times". However those "times" will not be the general track/direction of their lives. If sin and disobedience/lawlessness is the general track/direction of a person's life then they certainly need to reflect upon the above verses and prayerfully examine their salvation.

Martin, this is an excellent example of a warning passage to believers.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

But what is Paul warning us about? He said that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Did the bible ever tell us that inheriting the kingdom of God was a free gift? No, the bible affirms that we must have works added to our faith to receive the kingdom.

2 Peter 1
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There are things that you must do to enter this kingdom. But there is nothing that must be added to Christ's work in order to be raised up on the last day.

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rather than going to great lengths to try and explain why faith really means works, or why if you aren't working you don't really believe, we can easily distinguish between a free gift of eternal salvation by faith alone, and a reward of kingdom inheritance that is given to those who through the power of the Spirit have overcome in this life.

Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[Andy T.]

James, in your theology, does one ever have assurance if he will inherit the kingdom or not? I've asked that before of others that hold to ME, but have not been given an answer.

 

[James_Newman]

James, in your theology, does one ever have assurance if he will inherit the kingdom or not? I've asked that before of others that hold to ME, but have not been given an answer.

In an absolute sense? No. We can't know for sure how we are going to fare at the judgment seat of Christ. We can certainly have confidence, if we are keeping His commandments. But I can be absolutely sure that the blood of Jesus saves me.

 

[Martin]

Martin, this is an excellent example of a warning passage to believers.

==I am very familiar with this understanding of these verses since I, at one time, held this view. I have most of Zane Hodges books and I also own a copy of Joseph Dillow's "Reign of the Servant Kings". I am glad I no longer have to bend over backwards, and force my opinion into the text, the way I did then. Now I can let the Scriptures just speak while I listen.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10...But what is Paul warning us about? He said that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Did the bible ever tell us that inheriting the kingdom of God was a free gift? No, the bible affirms that we must have works added to our faith to receive the kingdom.

==In the context of 1Cor 6:9-10 I don't think that understand holds up. Paul is contrasting the life of the unrighteous/lost (vs1,6,9-10) person with that of the saved (vs11).

2 Peter 1
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There are things that you must do to enter this kingdom. But there is nothing that must be added to Christ's work in order to be raised up on the last day.

==I don't thinkt he KJVs translation here is very good. Anyway the verse is talking about assurance and reward for believers. Believers who have the qualities talked about by Peter can have assurance and will be rewarded in heaven.

Rather than going to great lengths to try and explain why faith really means works, or why if you aren't working you don't really believe, we can easily distinguish between a free gift of eternal salvation by faith alone, and a reward of kingdom inheritance that is given to those who through the power of the Spirit have overcome in this life.

Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

==Those who believe, overcome (1Jn 5:1,4-5).

 

[J. Jump]

[quote[James, in your theology, does one ever have assurance if he will inherit the kingdom or not? I've asked that before of others that hold to ME, but have not been given an answer.[/quote]
I know James has answered, but I wanted to interject something here. John tells us in both his gospel account and in his first epistle that we can know we are saved. So yes there is an assurance of knowing that one will be saved on that day, but as James said it's not an absolute assurance as eternal salvation (salvation of the spirit) is.

We can "know" we are saved as long as we are following what Scripture has instructed us. We can also "know" we are going to suffer the consequences if we are not following what Scripture says.

No one can deny works play a picture in a person's life whether saved or unsaved. The problem comes in due to where one interjects works into the salvation equation. Most of Christendom falls within one of two camps. You either work and believe to get saved and are in danger of losing that salvation should you stop working and/or believing. And then you have the other camp that back loads works into the salvation equation in that you have to "prove" you are saved by your works and if you don't then you weren't really saved in the first place.

Both of which I believe Scripture teaches as erroneous. Works never enter the picture of salvation by grace through faith. Ever . . . before, during or after.

Works enter the equation of life (at least for a saved) person only after the eternal salvation experience is a complete done deal never to be reversed. And those works have to do with the gospel of the kingdom (whether or not they will participate or not and what type of position they will hold if they are to participate), not eternal salvation.

 

[Andy T.]

James and J. Jump, I wonder why if there are two Gospels that Scriptures don't make it more clear? Don't you think that something as important as the Gospel(s) would be clearly delineated in the Scriputres, and not based on pure interpretation? I mean, this is the Gospel - the most important message there is. I must be blinded to your 'truth' because I just don't see it, and very few people do, so they must be blinded too.

 

[James_Newman]

==I am very familiar with this understanding of these verses since I, at one time, held this view. I have most of Zane Hodges books and I also own a copy of Joseph Dillow's "Reign of the Servant Kings". I am glad I no longer have to bend over backwards, and force my opinion into the text, the way I did then. Now I can let the Scriptures just speak while I listen.



==In the context of 1Cor 6:9-10 I don't think that understand holds up. Paul is contrasting the life of the unrighteous/lost (vs1,6,9-10) person with that of the saved (vs11).

And then you go and force your opinion into the text. Those same folks are the ones in verses 6-8, which is the reason for the warning in verse 9. Are the corinthians saved? Yes. Are they in danger of judgment? Yes.

==I don't thinkt he KJVs translation here is very good. Anyway the verse is talking about assurance and reward for believers. Believers who have the qualities talked about by Peter can have assurance and will be rewarded in heaven.

Rewarded in heaven? Where do you find that in the bible?
Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus is bringing the reward with him. Don't you believe in the literal kingdom?

==Those who believe, overcome (1Jn 5:1,4-5).

Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
How did Jesus overcome?

 

[James_Newman]

James and J. Jump, I wonder why if there are two Gospels that Scriptures don't make it more clear? Don't you think that something as important as the Gospel(s) would be clearly delineated in the Scriputres, and not based on pure interpretation? I mean, this is the Gospel - the most important message there is. I must be blinded to your 'truth' because I just don't see it, and very few people do, so they must be blinded too.

Not to be snarky, but thats hardly an argument against it.
Matthew 7:14
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.