Your Chance to Defend Islam

[Bible-boy]

Other distinctions between the biblical Yahweh (the God of Abraham) and Quranic Allah of Mohammad (taken from Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs by Ergun Mehmet Caner and Emir Fethi Caner).

Yahweh loves utterly:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16).

Allah changes in affections:

"If we so willed, we could have brought every soul its true guidance, but the word from me will come true: 'I will fill Hell with demons and men all together'" (surah 32:13).

[ January 30, 2003, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Bibleboy,

When Muslims worship Allah, are they committing idolatry?

God bless,

Carson

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Bibleboy,

When Muslims worship Allah, are they committing idolatry?

God bless,

Carson

Hello Carson,

I don't know if you read the lead post on this thread or all the other pages. However, I started it here in the "Other Religions/Doctrines" section so that Johnv could quote from the Quran in an attempt to prove his point that Islam is really a religion of peace. You see the moderators of the "Baptist Only" sections will not allow anyone to post quotes from the Quran in those sections of the website. Unfortunately that means that those of us who have studied Islam cannot use the Quran to point out contradictions and inconsistencies that would refute such a claim. So I don't know if your question really is applicable to the main thrust and purpose of this thread. Anyway, I'll attempt to answer you here. However, if this is going to result in a spin-off topic let's start another thread. O.K.?

Well Webster's defines an idol as "an image or symbol of a deity consecrated as an object of worship; a person honored to adoration; anything on which we set our affections inordinately."

Therefore, using the strictest interpretation of the term I would say yes Islam is a form of Idolatry. I understand that Islam forbids the worship of any image. That is why Islamic art is made up of simple geometric shapes and never includes images of any creature. So, a Muslim would say that he worships Allah alone and does not worship an idol or practice idolatry. However, suffice it to say that Islam is a false religion that worships a false god.

[ January 30, 2003, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Other distinctions between the biblical Yahweh (the God of Abraham) and Quranic Allah of Mohammad (taken from Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs by Ergun Mehmet Caner and Emir Fethi Caner).

Yahweh cannot lie:

"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).

Allah deceives:

"They plot and plan, and Allah, too plans, the best of planners [in context meaning 'deceivers'] is Allah" (surah 8:30).

Likewise, the Quran teaches that Christ did not die on the cross (4:157). The Quran teaches that the Jews believed that they had crucufued Jesus. Either Allah deceived them into such a belief, or (as many Muslims beleive, even though it is not in the Quran) Simon of Cyrene was accidentally crucified in Christ's place (see Corduan, Neighboring Faiths).

[ February 02, 2003, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Other distinctions between the biblical Yahweh (the God of Abraham) and Quranic Allah of Mohammad (taken from Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs by Ergun Mehmet Caner and Emir Fethi Caner).

Yahweh is one God in three persons:

"Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God" (John 8:54).

"For in him dewlleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9; cf. John 1; 8:58).

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost... Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God" (Acts 5:3-4).

Allah can be no God but one. The Trinity is blasphemous:

"They do blaspheme who say God is one of three... for there is no Allah except one Allah" (surah 5:73).

 

[Bible-boy]

Other distinctions between the biblical Yahweh (the God of Abraham) and Quranic Allah of Mohammad (taken from Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs by Ergun Mehmet Caner and Emir Fethi Caner).

In the one God (Yahweh) of the Trinity are the persons of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28:19).

According to the Quran, The Christian Trinity is three Gods--the Father, Mother (Mary), and Son (Jesus):

"And behold! God will say: O Jesus the son of Mary didst say unto man, 'worship me and my mother as gods' in derogation of Allah?" (surah 5:116).

 

[Johnv]

However, a simple straight forward reading of the O.T. reveals that the ancient Hebrews understood the biblical God of Abraham in His person as "God the Father."

Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the concept of God as Father was a revolutionary concept that Jesus introduced. Probably a topic for a different thread...

You're using a great deal of NT references. I haven't touched on them, because that's a different arguement. There's no question to the fact that omitting Jesus as the Son of God is a major issue, be one Muslim, Jew, or other. I think we're on the same page there,no question about it.

Note one interesting thing: You quoted verses from the Quran where they interpret a Trinity to be different that what we know. Then, you also cite verses where they say one should not believe in such a Trinity, as well they should, and as well we should. It's not that they reject what we know to be the Trinity, it's that they don't have the same understanding of the Trinity as we do, and therefore reject the idea of it. The Christian Trinity is not three Gods, it's one God. As discussed before, this concept is difficult to explain, even for the Christian. Better to worship one God imerfectly than a false trinity perfectly.

Here's a question that I'll have to ask my Muslim neighbor: Is there room in Islam to accept Jesus as the Messiah?

[ January 30, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Johnv:
However, a simple straight forward reading of the O.T. reveals that the ancient Hebrews understood the biblical God of Abraham in His person as "God the Father." (my original statement)

Johnv's question:

Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the concept of God as Father was a revolutionary concept that Jesus introduced.

Yep, I'm sure. Perhaps you have an incomplete understanding of the O.T. concept of the Fatherhood of God. Moses would wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that you have espoused. Deuteronomy 31:30 records how Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel. Moses said, "Do you thus deal with the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father, who bought you? Has He not made and established you?" (Deut. 32:6, NKJV). Likewise, Isaiah most certainly would not agree with your assessment. Isaiah wrote (about 500 years prior to the incarnation of Christ), "Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O Lord, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name" (Isaiah 63:16, NKJV).

You're using a great deal of NT references. I haven't touched on them, because that's a different arguement. There's no question to the fact that omitting Jesus as the Son of God is a major issue, be one Muslim, Jew, or other. I think we're on the same page there,no question about it.

In addition to my use of Deuteronomy and Isaiah above, in some of my other posts I demonstrated from Genesis, the Pslams, and Isaiah how God was understood as Father, Creator, indwelling Holy Spirit, and coming Messiah, who would be Immanuel (God with us) by the ancient Hebrews.

It is not a different argument because the Quran erronously refers to Jews and Christians as being "fellow believers" in the Allah of Mohammad and you espoused such an idea in an earlier post. This is a false statement/teaching. Therefore, I am using the N.T. references to demonstrate how Christians, who do worship Yahweh (the God of Abraham), cannot be accurately said to be "fellow believers" in the Quranic Allah of Mohammad. That is because when you look at the ways that Christianity and Islam define "God" you see that the two definitions are mutually exclusive. Therefore, to blindly accept the Islamic statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims are "fellow believers" in the God of Abraham, and then to espouse such a statment in an attempt to support your view is to make a self defeating claim. That is why I have been hammering on this issue from all sides.

Note one interesting thing: You quoted verses from the Quran where they interpret a Trinity to be different that what we know. Then, you also cite verses where they say one should not believe in such a Trinity, as well they should, and as well we should. It's not that they reject what we know to be the Trinity, it's that they don't have the same understanding of the Trinity as we do, and therefore reject the idea of it. The Christian Trinity is not three Gods, it's one God. As discussed before, this concept is difficult to explain, even for the Christian. Better to worship one God imerfectly than a false trinity perfectly.

You are hitting close to the point here. A Muslim or anyone else would be correct to reject the idea that the Trinity consists of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary the Mother. No Christian doctrine has ever supported such an idea. While Catholics exalt Mary, the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity is dead on accurate when it espouses God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit as the Triune Godhead.

However, it is not just that Mohammad misunderstood the Trinity. He flat out rejected the very idea, particularly the idea that God could have a Son which he associated with sexual procreation. Thus, he proclaimed that Allah is one and only one. The problem is not just a simple misunderstanding of the Trinity, it is the complete rejection of the revealed Triune Godhead. Hence, we (Christians and Jews) cannot possiblly be "fellow believers" in the Quranic Allah of Mohammad. Finally, according to the Islamic understanding of Allah as one and only one there is no possibility for the Holy Spirit who indwells the people of God.

Here's a question that I'll have to ask my Muslim neighbor: Is there room in Islam to accept Jesus as the Messiah?

I believe that he will respond, "No." Islam does teach that Allah will one day judge the world. However, it is the radically monotheistic Allah, who will come to judge the world. In the Islamic system of belief there is no place for a coming Messiah.

[ February 01, 2003, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Hello Johnv,

After presenting all the previous information can we at least agree that the Biblical Yahweh, who is the God of Abraham, and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad are not one and the same; therefore, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are not actually "fellow believers"?

 

[LadyEagle]

BibleBoy, again I appreciate all your posts on this topic. It is apparent you have studied this subject extensively & I appreciate all your effort here in this forum.

Am interested in the Mecca pre-Islamic religion, if you would care to go into detail. This would help some of us see that indeed, Allah, is not the same as our God. Thank you.

 

[Netcurtains3]

Hi eagle,
The Nestorians were at Nicene (the meeting of big wigs who tried to formalise a concept of Christianity - loads of arguments and disagreements and walkouts). The Nestorians (I think) did not accept that Yeshua was god. These people appeared to have merged with Islam (to some extent) and possibly defined much of the Islamic religion. The Nestorians were concidered "christian" by the fact that they were INVITED to the Nicene meeting. This sort of implies if we ever had another "council" Muslims should be invited.

This sort of implies if we ever had another "council" Muslims should be invited. The bit in the Koran about Mary being treated as a God by Christians is a Nestorian theological stance.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Netcurtains3:
Hi eagle,
The Nestorians were at Nicene (the meeting of big wigs who tried to formalise a concept of Christianity - loads of arguments and disagreements and walkouts). The Nestorians (I think) did not accept that Yeshua was god. These people appeared to have merged with Islam (to some extent) and possibly defined much of the Islamic religion. The Nestorians were concidered "christian" by the fact that they were INVITED to the Nicene meeting. This sort of implies if we ever had another "council" Muslims should be invited.

This sort of implies if we ever had another "council" Muslims should be invited. The bit in the Koran about Mary being treated as a God by Christians is a Nestorian theological stance.

Hello Net,

According to the on-line Catholic Encyclopedia:

"First Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, held in [A.D.] 325 on the occasion of the heresy of Arius (Arianism). As early as 320 or 321 St. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria, convoked a council at Alexandria at which more than one hundred bishops from Egypt and Libya anathematized Arius."

Source Link: Catholic Encyclopedia

The teaching and/or beliefs of Islam did not exist until Mohammad first started to cook them up in a cave outside Mecca in A.D. 610. The Nestorians have nothing to with Islam. Additionally, no Muslims were invited to Nicene in A.D. 325, because there were no Muslims in existance at that time. I don't know were you got the information or ideas that you posted above; however, its dead worng.

Additionally, look what the Catholic Church has to say about Nestorianism:

Pope St. Coelestine of Rome:
“Let this, our decision, be plain: that if you do not preach the same doctrine concerning Christ our God as that embraced by the Church of the Romans, and of the Alexandrians, and of all the Catholic Church, which also the great Church of the Constantinopolitans so excellently embraced until you, and if within ten days counting from the day of this notice you do not openly and by a written confession reject this infidel innovation, which seeks to separate that which the Holy Scripture has united, you shall be cast out from the entire Catholic Church.” [A Letter of Pope Celestine I of Rome to the heretical Patriarch Nestorius of Constantinople, written in the name of the Local Council of Rome, which condemned Nestorius before the convocation of the Third Ecumenical Council].

Source link: What the Pope said


Bishop John, in the world Moissey Gevargizov, was born to a Nestorian family in the province of Urmia, at that time the northernmost province of Persia, and bordering on Russia. At the time of Bishop John's birth, the once mighty missionary church of the Nestorians, which at its height had reached across Asia from the Middle East to China, was in dire straits. Centuries of persecution at the hands of their Muslim overlords had brought the Nestorians to their knees; their numbers had been further decimated by aggressive Roman Catholic and American Protestant missionaries, who sought to convert the Nestorians to the Unia or to "Bible-believing Christianity," respectively.

Source link: Church History

[ February 02, 2003, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
BibleBoy, again I appreciate all your posts on this topic. It is apparent you have studied this subject extensively & I appreciate all your effort here in this forum.

Am interested in the Mecca pre-Islamic religion, if you would care to go into detail. This would help some of us see that indeed, Allah, is not the same as our God. Thank you.

Hello SheEagle,

I'd be glad to post the information that you requested. However, I don't have any of my text books or notes on that subject here with me right now. I'll start a new topic/thread entitled "Pre-Islamic Religion of Mecca" in a day or two.

Basically, there was a whole bunch of idol worship and polytheism surrounding the "Kaba" in Mecca prior to Mohammad's military conquest of the city in the seventh century A.D.

 

[Netcurtains3]

Hi Bboy2,
Actually I was wrong about the Nestorians. They are in fact now mainly Catholic and living Iraq.

I do feel that there is a very strong link between the foundations of Islam and non-Catholic and non-Orthodox Christians. Phrases in the Koran like "don't make Mary a god" seem to me that he came in contact with early versions of Baptists and absorbed them like the borg.

Net.

 

[Bible-boy]

Hello Net,

Thanks for acknowledging a mistake. It takes a big man to swallow pride and say, "I was wrong." Like you told me on another thread. It is alright we all make mistakes.

The early history of Islam is very interesting. Actually, Mohammad had had contact with Jews, Christians, and Zoroasterians in his travels as a camel driver/caravan leader. When he had his first "encounter" in the cave outside Mecca in A.D. 610 he did not know what to make of it. He actually thought that he may have been demon possessed. He came home and told his wife about the experience. She tried to comfort him and reassure him that he was not demon possessed. He she told the story to her uncle, a Christian, he replied that the experience sound like Mohammad had met an angel named Gabriel. Then he told them about how Gabriel had appeared to Mary and Joseph. That is were the whole idea that the angel Gabriel relayed the Quran to Mohammad came from. I have notes on the whole story with the names all involved and the dates that things occurred if you are interested.

 

[Netcurtains3]

Hi Bibleboy2,
Now you're pulling my leg. "Big man to say I was wrong" - come off it. People say sorry all the time - it is religious people and teenagers that find it difficult. I've probably been wrong more times then you've had hot dinners. It certainly doesn't make me big to acknowledge it - just ordinary.

Net.

 

[LadyEagle]

Bibleboy, I hope you'll continue.

 

[Johnv]

After presenting all the previous information can we at least agree that the Biblical Yahweh, who is the God of Abraham, and the Quranic Allah of Mohammad are not one and the same; therefore, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are not actually "fellow believers"?

I disagree, but only slightly. The God that a Muslim worships and the God of Abraham are the same God. However, I believe we see God more completely than they do, thanks mostly to Jesus. You're trying to say they're not the same God because they don't see him the same as we do. I can accept that we are fellow believers because we believe in one God. However, we are not fellow believers in matters of Jesus in the Godhead. Then again, we wouldn't be fellow believer with the Jews for the same reason.

I don't want to say "I wish they could see God like us", but I do wish that they could see the Father the way Jesus saw the father. Come to think of it, I wish I would see the Father the way Jesus saw Him.

BTW - I DID ask my neighbor, and his reply was surprising. Yes, a Muslim is allowed to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. But a Muslim may not believe that God had a son. (it seems that many of the faithful Jews of Jesus' time had a hard time with this as well) Given what we already discussed about what they think "son" means, from a procreation standpoint, I understand that belief. If, however, a Muslim could understand the Trinity and the meaning of the "Son of God" from a nonsexual reference, accepting Jesus as the Son of God may be possible. I will have to do some serious pondering over this.

 

[Bible-boy]

Hello Johnv,

It is still your position that Yahweh God, the biblical God of Abraham, is one and the same as the Quranic Allah of Mohammad. If you will, please answer the following questions:

1. When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, did Yahweh God forgive them so completely that their sin caused no lasting consequence that would effect all generations since that time?

2. Did Yahweh God command Abraham to offer Isaac up to Him as a sacrifice?

3. Does Yahweh God ever change?

4. Can Yahweh God ever lie or act in a deceitful manner?

5. Does Yahweh God utterly love His creation, mankind?

6. Has Yahweh God revealed that He is Triune?

 

[Johnv]

Yes, that is generally my position. I've stated why I think that on this thread. There's a difference between God being the same, and God being imperfectly or mistakenly viewed or interpreted. Your view of God is probably the most right, and their view of God is probably wrong. But a view of God is not God.

Suffice it to say that my opinion will not change, and neither will yours. I have no problem with us agreeing to diagree on the subject.