Your single most important doctrine...

[PreachTony]

Yes, I would agree that Acts 16:31 is at the heart of the Gospel. What I wouldn't agree with is that Jesus died to pay a sin-debt. Many interpret the death of Jesus that way, but many do not. So, who is correct?

Please point me to it if I missed it, but did you ever tell us what Christ died for, if not to pay for our sin-debt?

 

[Revmitchell]

Please point me to it if I missed it, but did you ever tell us what Christ died for, if not to pay for our sin-debt?

He holds to the Christus Victor view and right now he is working to ask leading questions so he can insist all early church fathers held to this view and that it was the only predominant view. Thinks he is slick.

 

[annsni]

I like the way Greg Gilbert puts it in his book What is the Gospel?

"“When we stand before God at the judgment, what do you plan to do or say in order to convince Him to count you righteous and admit you to all the blessings of His kingdom? ... [What could we possibly] hold up before Him and say ‘God, on account of this justify me!’

“ I’ll tell you what every Christian whose faith is in Christ alone will do, by God’s grace. They will simply and quietly point to Jesus... ‘ O God, do not look for any righteousness in my own life, but look at your Son. Do not count me righteous because of anything I’ve done or am. Count me righteous because of Jesus. He lived the life I should have lived. He died the death I deserve. I have renounced all other trusts, my plea is Him alone. Justify me O God because of Jesus.” (adapted from “What is the Gospel” p.83)"

 

[Scarlett O.]

But some of what you say comes from the Bible, others don't see there. For instance, that everyone is born a sinner, that Jesus died in our stead. Yes, many churches teach that, actually most evangelical Protestant churches, but there are other churches which do not believe this. So, how do you know that you are right and they are wrong?

"you", "me", "they", "right", "wrong" -

All I can tell you is when the Bible says that in Romans 5 that "through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedienceall were made sinners" and "when we had no strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly"- I believe it.

I interpret it to mean that I deserved to die because of my sin - in fact I WILL die, but because of Christ's death was an atoning death and propitiatory death - his death trumps mine and replaces mine.

I don't care if I am not 100% accurate or if "they" are not 100% accurate. I only care what God's Word says.

When we meet God in heaven, he isn't going to pass out lollipops for those of us who came the closest to getting it right. We aren't going to stand around and question Him and demand that he tell us "who was right".

 

[Deacon]

What is the single most important doctrine that determines for you personally what denomination you can be a part of? Can you even narrow it down to one?

I too, like others before me in the thread, look for the basics of the gospel first.
It should be most obvious; the purpose statement of a church.

After that, when looking a church's "Statement of Faith", I examine how they handle the doctrine of creation.

Many now leave it out of their statement of faith, which tells me something and satisfies me. It means I am open to question someone about it at a later time.

Some identify themselves as 7-day creationists, which informs me how they interpret the bible. I could visit them but would never become a member. It tells me they are quaint traditionalists, probably not open to difficult questions of the faith.

Some use code phrases, among them is "We interpret the bible literally", which is ambiguous but tells me the leadership probably follows a 7-day creationist view but doesn't make a big thing of it. It also tells me they may have a problem differentiating between interpretation and revelation.

Rob

 

[Rebel]

He holds to the Christus Victor view and right now he is working to ask leading questions so he can insist all early church fathers held to this view and that it was the only predominant view. Thinks he is slick.

No, I can, have, and will again, if need be, substantiate what the early church taught in that other thread. So, not only are you wrong but also a false accuser.

My intent with this thread is exactly as I stated it from the beginning, to find out from readers what is the central doctrine for them. For me it is the Resurrection.

 

[Rebel]

Please point me to it if I missed it, but did you ever tell us what Christ died for, if not to pay for our sin-debt?

His death was only one aspect of His mission. And it wasn't to pay a 'sin debt'. In short, it was to deliver us from Satan and physical and spiritual death.

 

[PreachTony]

I too, like others before me in the thread, look for the basics of the gospel first.
It should be most obvious; the purpose statement of a church.

After that, when looking a church's "Statement of Faith", I examine how they handle the doctrine of creation.

Many now leave it out of their statement of faith, which tells me something and satisfies me. It means I am open to question someone about it at a later time.

Some identify themselves as 7-day creationists, which informs me how they interpret the bible. I could visit them but would never become a member. It tells me they are quaint traditionalists, probably not open to difficult questions of the faith.

Some use code phrases, among them is "We interpret the bible literally", which is ambiguous but tells me the leadership probably follows a 7-day creationist view but doesn't make a big thing of it. It also tells me they may have a problem differentiating between interpretation and revelation.

My church has never mentioned creation in our statement of faith. Granted, we don't really have a published statement of faith. Never really been a concern for us.

I'm not beholden to either a literal 7-day creation or a day-age creation, but I see your point, as a church's position on creation will inform you greatly of their interpretation style.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I like the way Greg Gilbert puts it in his book What is the Gospel?

"“When we stand before God at the judgment, what do you plan to do or say in order to convince Him to count you righteous and admit you to all the blessings of His kingdom? ... [What could we possibly] hold up before Him and say ‘God, on account of this justify me!’

“ I’ll tell you what every Christian whose faith is in Christ alone will do, by God’s grace. They will simply and quietly point to Jesus... ‘ O God, do not look for any righteousness in my own life, but look at your Son. Do not count me righteous because of anything I’ve done or am. Count me righteous because of Jesus. He lived the life I should have lived. He died the death I deserve. I have renounced all other trusts, my plea is Him alone. Justify me O God because of Jesus.” (adapted from “What is the Gospel” p.83)"

Absolutely:jesus:

 

[annsni]

His death was only one aspect of His mission. And it wasn't to pay a 'sin debt'. In short, it was to deliver us from Satan and physical and spiritual death.

So what is propitiation as used in the Scriptures?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ummm - WHAT???????

Then he has the nerve to criticize Catholics:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My church has never mentioned creation in our statement of faith. Granted, we don't really have a published statement of faith. Never really been a concern for us.

I'm not beholden to either a literal 7-day creation or a day-age creation, but I see your point, as a church's position on creation will inform you greatly of their interpretation style.

You have no statement of faith?!? What reply do you give to people when they come to review the church?

 

[Rebel]

I like the way Greg Gilbert puts it in his book What is the Gospel?

"“When we stand before God at the judgment, what do you plan to do or say in order to convince Him to count you righteous and admit you to all the blessings of His kingdom? ... [What could we possibly] hold up before Him and say ‘God, on account of this justify me!’

“ I’ll tell you what every Christian whose faith is in Christ alone will do, by God’s grace. They will simply and quietly point to Jesus... ‘ O God, do not look for any righteousness in my own life, but look at your Son. Do not count me righteous because of anything I’ve done or am. Count me righteous because of Jesus. He lived the life I should have lived. He died the death I deserve. I have renounced all other trusts, my plea is Him alone. Justify me O God because of Jesus.” (adapted from “What is the Gospel” p.83)"

Yes, that is good. But in the end, we all still die for our own sins, do we not?

 

[webdog]

What is the single most important doctrine that determines for you personally what denomination you can be a part of? Can you even narrow it down to one?

On another note, I'm sorry I haven't replied to some other threads yet. I've just been too busy to read or post much.

Justification hands down.

 

[Rebel]

"you", "me", "they", "right", "wrong" -

All I can tell you is when the Bible says that in Romans 5 that "through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedienceall were made sinners" and "when we had no strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly"- I believe it.

I interpret it to mean that I deserved to die because of my sin - in fact I WILL die, but because of Christ's death was an atoning death and propitiatory death - his death trumps mine and replaces mine.

I don't care if I am not 100% accurate or if "they" are not 100% accurate. I only care what God's Word says.

When we meet God in heaven, he isn't going to pass out lollipops for those of us who came the closest to getting it right. We aren't going to stand around and question Him and demand that he tell us "who was right".

Ye, but it is vitally important what we believe and what we are taught. If we present something as being the Gospel when it is not, great harm is done.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I too, like others before me in the thread, look for the basics of the gospel first.
It should be most obvious; the purpose statement of a church.

After that, when looking a church's "Statement of Faith", I examine how they handle the doctrine of creation.

Many now leave it out of their statement of faith, which tells me something and satisfies me. It means I am open to question someone about it at a later time.

Some identify themselves as 7-day creationists, which informs me how they interpret the bible. I could visit them but would never become a member. It tells me they are quaint traditionalists, probably not open to difficult questions of the faith.

Some use code phrases, among them is "We interpret the bible literally", which is ambiguous but tells me the leadership probably follows a 7-day creationist view but doesn't make a big thing of it. It also tells me they may have a problem differentiating between interpretation and revelation.

Rob

I gotta tell ya this Rob....you got your head on straight and your eyes are open. And I would very much like to come and visit but your 70 miles away from me.

 

[Rebel]

I too, like others before me in the thread, look for the basics of the gospel first.
It should be most obvious; the purpose statement of a church.

After that, when looking a church's "Statement of Faith", I examine how they handle the doctrine of creation.

Many now leave it out of their statement of faith, which tells me something and satisfies me. It means I am open to question someone about it at a later time.

Some identify themselves as 7-day creationists, which informs me how they interpret the bible. I could visit them but would never become a member. It tells me they are quaint traditionalists, probably not open to difficult questions of the faith.

Some use code phrases, among them is "We interpret the bible literally", which is ambiguous but tells me the leadership probably follows a 7-day creationist view but doesn't make a big thing of it. It also tells me they may have a problem differentiating between interpretation and revelation.

Rob

Thank you for answering the original question.

 

[Rebel]

So what is propitiation as used in the Scriptures?

There is a difference of opinion on how the word translated as propitiation should be translated. Many translate it as expiation.

 

[Rebel]

Justification hands down.

Thank you! And may I ask how do you see justification?

 

[PreachTony]

His death was only one aspect of His mission. And it wasn't to pay a 'sin debt'. In short, it was to deliver us from Satan and physical and spiritual death.

Gonna have to agree to disagree with you there, bud. I agree it was only one aspect of His overall purpose. But He died to make atonement for the sins of the world, meaning He did pay a sin debt. After all, without shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. The sacrifices of bulls and goats sufficed only for a time. The sacrifice of Christ, dying the death we deserved, as many others have said, made the difference.

We are not delivered from physical death, because this body still must die, seeing as it is corrupted by sin. The corruptible must put on incorruption; the mortal must put on immortality. We are delivered from spiritual death, meaning the second death of the Bible, which is the Lake of Fire. We are freed from that, thanks to Christ atoning for us and now making intercession for us. We are freed from the pain and sting of death, and the "victory" of the grave, by Christ rising from the dead and coming out of the tomb victorious over death and Hell.

We are delivered from Satan in that Christ has sealed us up to the day of redemption. This does not mean we are freed from the antagonizing efforts of Satan. I firmly believe Satan seeks to tear down any Christian he can. Satan does not need to tear down the lost, because they are already where he wants them to be. Tearing down someone already established in their walk with God is like a trophy for Satan.