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Your view on Catholics
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Matt 10 - Christ said not to fear those who can kill the body - but cannot kill the soul. In John 11 Christ spoke of Lazarus in his dead state - as "sleeping".
His body was decaying - returning to dust.
His soul was merely dormant - waiting to be called forth.
Christ did not say "Lazarus no longer exists - I go that he may exist".
Lazarus still existed -- but Christ said he existed in a state of sleep "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by annsni
When we die, we certainly do not become gods being able to listen to prayers of everyone on earth and have special powers to cause God to do something.
Amen!
Those texts about "the living know that they shall die - but the dead know not anything" and then "the dead in Christ will rise first" being given as the "hope" of those who are grieving with lost loved ones... etc etc.
The souls of Rev 6 all pictured as huddled "under the altar" and crying out to God for revenge -- is a symbol - much like the Hebrews 12 reference to Abel's blood "speaking" and God's statement to Cain in Gen 4 that Abel's blood was "crying out from the ground".
The parable of Luke 16 is actually a good one for arguing the case that "the dead pray to the dead". Lazarus prays directly to Abraham - not God in that parable.
And all the saints sit in Abraham's lap.
The point of the parable in Luke 16 is best told in Christ's own words "IF they do not listen to Moses THEN NEITHEr will they listen though one should rise from the dead".
And of course - Christ DID in fact "rise from the dead" -- and the jews did NOT listen.
No text says "at death "we are in the lord's presence"
In Matt 22 - Christ said that "IN the RESURRECTION they neither marry nor are given in marriage".
Christ never says "the dead do not marry" - since they are dormant - there is no issue of marriage to address while they are dead.
In Rev 21 we have the text about "no more crying, no more tears" it is spoken at a point after the 1000 years - after the lake of fire event and after the New Heavens and New Earth event.
It is not a statement about what dead people are doing or not doing at this point in time.
in Christ,
Bob
That is a twisting of Scripture, a demeaning of the King's English, a discombobulation of the entire parable.
First the meaning in Mat.10 is to Fear Him who is able...
He didn't say he would do that what you claimed.
That aside, that verse is another debate. You have destroyed that verse as well.
He was dead--yes sleeping--physically dead--and as Martha said: "by this time he stinketh." So, yes he was decaying.
--Don't speculate on that which you know not. The Bible says nothing about where his soul was. Be silent where the Bible is silent. You cannot say his soul was dormant to prop up your own biased theology.
Right, Lazarus did exist. But he was physically dead. Christ only referred to him in terms that the disciples understood. He was not speaking in mysteries.
Christ did not say that he existed in a state of sleep. "Sleep" is a synonym for "dead." Christ said he was dead, physically dead. Why are you reading into this passage something that is not there? Lazarus is dead. He sleeps/ is physically dead.
Read 1Cor.11:30 "For this reason some among you "sleep" (are dead) and some are weak and sickly. Sleep and dead are synonyms. But you want to thrown confusion into this passage and make it mean what your biased theology teaches.
Lazarus is dead; I go to raise him. The passage is clear. Oft times Jesus spoke in language that was a little unclear to his disciples. It became very clear to them after the miracle occurred.
He also said: "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it again."
But they thought he was speaking of something else, didn't they?
John 11:12-13 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Isn't the passage clear enough? Or do you have to cloud it with your preconceived ideas??
Actually, it was the rich man in hell. The passage doesn't say that Lazarus was even aware of what was going on. The rich man saw him far off and cried to Abraham to send him to give him a drink and then to send him to his father's house to warn his brothers.
Marcia
Active Member
Even if they intercede for us - and there is no scriptural support for that at all - that does not mean we talk or pray to them.
Christ is our advocate and Intercessor; this is said in many places in the NT. The Holy Spirit is also spoken of as interceding for us.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You are right - my bad. It was the rich man that prays to Abraham in that story - not Lazarus.
Lazarus in that story is sitting in Abraham's lap.
And when Abraham is asked to sovereignly choose to send Lazarus to warn the living (which Abraham apparently thinks would require that Lazarus must be resurrected in order to perform such a ministry to the living relatives of the rich man) - Abraham's sovereign decision is "no".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1 Tim 2 - One Mediator between God and Man.
1John 2:1 We have an Advocate with the Father (in the person of Christ our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary)
Heb 4 - we come boldly to the throne of God in the person of Christ - our High Priest.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You tell a good story. (Or at least you provide good headlines for your story)
Now that is a wrench of the text that the unbiased objective reader is not likely to swallow whole.
Here is the actual text -
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b][/quote]
Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Your "belief" is that the text should have said something more like "He will destroy the body in fiery hell - but keep the soul alive for all eternity in torment and suffering"
-- which I will grant you is a far GREATER thing to "fear" than simply "destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell".
If we carefully accept your proposed twist and wrench of the text to make it read "fear Him who would never destroy both body and soul in fiery hell -- even though He could if He wanted to -- (in reality He will destroy the body but NOT the soul in fiery hell. In fact He will supernaturally keep the soul alive in torment for all eternity -- it is just that He COULD also destroy BOTH the body and the soul in fiery hell - so fear Him for that thing that He will never do to anyone)"...
Is like saying "fear the teacher that could give you a failing grade and expel you from school - but of course your teacher will never do such a thing -- in reality he will give you a failing grade AND beat you for all eternity -- but fear him because HE COULD choose to give you a failing grade and send you home (he just never will do such a thing)"
The unbiased objective reader will instantly see that your wrench of the text makes utter nonsense of it.
How can you possibly miss that detail?
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Lazarus was physcally dead - yes we agree.
But Lazarus the person (soul) -- was asleep - while his body was in fact physically dead.
That is the not-so-subtle detail you keep missing in your efforts to pretend that a physically dead and decaying corpse "is asleep".
No - when we sleep each night we do not claim to have "died" nor do we claim to be resurrected each morning.
Physical sleep and physical death are "very different" and not synonymous by any means.
However in the Bible - Physical sleep is associated with the soul in a dormant state - the state the Bible calls "sleep". Thus Christ can say of the PERSON Lazarus "I go that I may wake HIM".
He does not say of the body of Lazarus "I go that I may wake IT".
Notice that in 1Cor 15 when the condition of the body is being spoken of it is always "An IT" never "a HIM" or a "HER".
In the Bible - a body is something that a person HAS.
in Christ,
Bob
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Here is what I said:
"that verse is another debate. You have destroyed that verse as well."
It is the one thing I didn't comment on. Why are you jumping on this when I said it is for another debate? Why didn't you address the issues raised, Bob?
Destroy does not mean annihilate, a mistake the SDA make on a regular basis. It simply means to render inoperable.
Those in Hell will indeed be alive. They will not be lifeless or annihilated, nor in a state of soul sleep. They will be as the Bible states: in a state of eternal torment.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--Those words are not allegorical. "tormented day and night forever and ever," has only one meaning.
Bob! You ought to be ashamed of yourself!
You claim to know what I believe. You state "If we carefully accept your proposal...". I never proposed anything about this passage, except to save it for another debate, another thread!! Therefore you post something I did not say. The fact is that you don't have a proper definition of "destroy" and until you do, you will never have a proper understanding of the passage.
I say just a few words and you think you know all my theology, when in fact I said, now is not the time for debate. He that hath ears let him hear. "Destroy" means to "render inoperable" not to annihilate.
You certainly messed up on that one.
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You simply refuse to believe the Bible on this one:
John 11:12-13 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
The Scriptures are plain in their teaching. A ten year old can easily understand what sleep means in this context.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK -- here is the question I responded to -
The "point" of my response was to answer that the soul still exists when a person dies. (which I think you also agree with).
I simply point out that a dormant - sleeping soul is not something you can talk to - not something that can watch you live your life on earth - and then help you.
---
Your recent responses are about "destroy" apparently not meaning to "destroy by reducing to ashes" -- however I have shown elsewhere that this is exactly how the NT writers use that idea. But since this is not a discussion about what Catholics or Baptists or Adventists think is happening in the Lake of Fire - I am happy to let that discussion go for some other time.
My point was to make an actual Bible based argument for the soul continuing in some form AFTER the person dies -- and it needed to be a valid Bible example -- not some wrench of a text to make the point.
that is the only reason I chose Matt 10 in this regard.
Since you apparently agree that Matt 10 shows continuation of the soul past the point of death (the first death) in this life -- there is little point in getting into the aspect of the 2nd death (real and valid threat) that we find in Matt 10 and the confused logic you use to back out of it.
in Christ,
Bob
Originally Posted by Briony-Gloriana
I find Bob's replies fairly long winded but hey that is just me.....I am getting this right....so when you are dead you are dead....so is the soul dead too...I do not believe so, as it is immortal...
so what happens when you die Bob...do you believe you are called to account by the Eternal God?
The "point" of my response was to answer that the soul still exists when a person dies. (which I think you also agree with).
I simply point out that a dormant - sleeping soul is not something you can talk to - not something that can watch you live your life on earth - and then help you.
---
Your recent responses are about "destroy" apparently not meaning to "destroy by reducing to ashes" -- however I have shown elsewhere that this is exactly how the NT writers use that idea. But since this is not a discussion about what Catholics or Baptists or Adventists think is happening in the Lake of Fire - I am happy to let that discussion go for some other time.
My point was to make an actual Bible based argument for the soul continuing in some form AFTER the person dies -- and it needed to be a valid Bible example -- not some wrench of a text to make the point.
that is the only reason I chose Matt 10 in this regard.
Since you apparently agree that Matt 10 shows continuation of the soul past the point of death (the first death) in this life -- there is little point in getting into the aspect of the 2nd death (real and valid threat) that we find in Matt 10 and the confused logic you use to back out of it.
in Christ,
Bob
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Yet God brings to mind things and people in need of prayer. Certainly, I'm not omniscient however God may put in my heart to pray for so and so. Now picture a place outside of the spacetime continuum and imagine God inspiring his saints to pray? could that not be possible?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
that all hinges on the premise that those in heaven are bound to space time.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Those texts about "the living know that they shall die - but the dead know not anything" and then "the dead in Christ will rise first" being given as the "hope" of those who are grieving with lost loved ones... etc etc.
What verses and do they apply to the discussion?
The souls of Rev 6 all pictured as huddled "under the altar" and crying out to God for revenge -- is a symbol - much like the Hebrews 12 reference to Abel's blood "speaking" and God's statement to Cain in Gen 4 that Abel's blood was "crying out from the ground".
I thought you took the scriptures literally
The parable of Luke 16 is actually a good one for arguing the case that "the dead pray to the dead". Lazarus prays directly to Abraham - not God in that parable.
So the dead can speak to the other dead? And Abraham has taken on characteristics of God?
And all the saints sit in Abraham's lap.
The point of the parable in Luke 16 is best told in Christ's own words "IF they do not listen to Moses THEN NEITHEr will they listen though one should rise from the dead".
Irrelevant unless your atempting to say that its just a parable and nothing to do with how the hereafter works.
And of course - Christ DID in fact "rise from the dead" -- and the jews did NOT listen.
No text says "at death "we are in the lord's presence"
Not directly but their will be no more Sun and the lord himself will be their light; all are gathered around the throne etc...
In Matt 22 - Christ said that "IN the RESURRECTION they neither marry nor are given in marriage".
Christ never says "the dead do not marry" - since they are dormant - there is no issue of marriage to address while they are dead.
Mormons believe in marriage in the after life its a heresy. I don't think Jesus was spliting hairs over "sleep" vs. "going directly to heaven" as you seem to indicate. Jesus just wanted us to know that in the here after there will be a different order and there will be no "being given into Marriage"
In Rev 21 we have the text about "no more crying, no more tears" it is spoken at a point after the 1000 years - after the lake of fire event and after the New Heavens and New Earth event.
It is not a statement about what dead people are doing or not doing at this point in time.
It depends on your eschatology. I happen to disagree with your version of it.
What verses and do they apply to the discussion?
The souls of Rev 6 all pictured as huddled "under the altar" and crying out to God for revenge -- is a symbol - much like the Hebrews 12 reference to Abel's blood "speaking" and God's statement to Cain in Gen 4 that Abel's blood was "crying out from the ground".
I thought you took the scriptures literally
The parable of Luke 16 is actually a good one for arguing the case that "the dead pray to the dead". Lazarus prays directly to Abraham - not God in that parable.
So the dead can speak to the other dead? And Abraham has taken on characteristics of God?
And all the saints sit in Abraham's lap.
The point of the parable in Luke 16 is best told in Christ's own words "IF they do not listen to Moses THEN NEITHEr will they listen though one should rise from the dead".
Irrelevant unless your atempting to say that its just a parable and nothing to do with how the hereafter works.
And of course - Christ DID in fact "rise from the dead" -- and the jews did NOT listen.
No text says "at death "we are in the lord's presence"
Not directly but their will be no more Sun and the lord himself will be their light; all are gathered around the throne etc...
In Matt 22 - Christ said that "IN the RESURRECTION they neither marry nor are given in marriage".
Christ never says "the dead do not marry" - since they are dormant - there is no issue of marriage to address while they are dead.
Mormons believe in marriage in the after life its a heresy. I don't think Jesus was spliting hairs over "sleep" vs. "going directly to heaven" as you seem to indicate. Jesus just wanted us to know that in the here after there will be a different order and there will be no "being given into Marriage"
In Rev 21 we have the text about "no more crying, no more tears" it is spoken at a point after the 1000 years - after the lake of fire event and after the New Heavens and New Earth event.
It is not a statement about what dead people are doing or not doing at this point in time.
It depends on your eschatology. I happen to disagree with your version of it.
David Michael Harris
Active Member
Double post, sorry..... Please Moderator delete.
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David Michael Harris
Active Member
Non Sequitur. We are talking about the ability to hear prayers of others, not pray at the leading of the Spirit. Who's prayer does Mary hear when there are 20 people across the world praying to her at the same time...and silently at that?
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