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Your view on Catholics

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Marcia

Active Member
Marcia, the best way to learn French is to spend time in France, i.e., immerse yourself in the culture and engage in conversation with those for whom French is their native tongue. The same can be said of Catholicism. Their culture is different from Baptist culture and they perceive things somewhat differently.

I think we can ascertain the RCC doctrine from the Catechism. If the words they are using are not clear or are "perceived" differently, then that is deceptive. It either means what it says or it doesn't.

For anyone who would like to either view or participate in this culture, there is a board somewhat similar to this one at http://forums.catholic.com/. They allow anyone to participate, regardless of their faith and the only rule pertaining to your discussion is that you can't use words like "popish" or "Romish" or accuse the Catholic Church of being the "whore of Babylon." You will be annoyed by a few of their posters, just like we are here, but on the whole you will get an accurate picture of how their beliefs play out in their own culture. There are some interesting discussions going on right now in their Non-Catholic Religions section.

Well, thanks for letting us know about this.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
It is the worship of anything but God that is wrong and sinful. The mere images, symbols or icons doesn't constitute idolotry. Remember Moses and the brass serpent? How about in the Holy of Holies? Were not images of angels made by the command of God?

According to the bible, idoloters really believed their idols were gods. This isn't the case with Catholic and Orthodox symbols. When God gave the commandment regarding idloltry, I think He meant for it to be understood in the literal form.

Can't tell you how many Baptist churches I've been in with pictures of Jesus, crosses, altars with bibles, etc.

BTW, I know what I worship and what I don't. I have said before, if I am wrong about Christ presence in the Eucharist, I am guilty of idolotry. Pictures, icons, statues and the like I do not worship. I do worship Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
 

Marcia

Active Member
'Remember also that Catholics practice their own brand of taquyaa (that is, the Muslim practice that tells Muslims that it's OK to lie in order to deceive infidels)'

Wow, we do?

How about: http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p3.asp

Christianity and CRI both exposed Chick Publications for the lies they have concocted to slander the Catholic Church and one of our 'so called' Christian bookstores still stocks their bigotry on their shelves.

Everytime I have posted anything about the Chick Publications all you anti-Catholics get real quiet! I guess the end justifys the means.
.

Maybe we don't say anything because we don't read Chick. I know who he is and all about him and tell people not to read his stuff.

This is a straw man - no one here is using Chick as a source of info.
 

Marcia

Active Member
I watched part of the March for Life on TV and a Catholic (I can't recall his name or title) was giving a speech. He said that we need "to ask Mary" to pray for those who have abortions and support abortions, etc. so that they will see this is wrong.

Why should a Christian ask Mary to pray for these people? First of all, asking Mary is speaking to a dead person - she's dead and she can't hear us and there is no teaching in the Bible that a Christian should ask a dead person to pray for anyone.

Secondly, can't a Christian who is able to go before the throne of God through the blood of Christ pray to God for these people? Of course we can!

Thirdly, praying to Mary is a form of worship - we are to pray only to God. If someone tries to say that asking Mary is not prayer, that is a distinction with no difference.

This is one of the very unbiblical practices and teachings of the RCC. These kind of practices are endemic to the RCC.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
It is the worship of anything but God that is wrong and sinful. The mere images, symbols or icons doesn't constitute idolotry. Remember Moses and the brass serpent? How about in the Holy of Holies? Were not images of angels made by the command of God?
The context of the Ten Commandments is "God."
The images God commanded the Israelites to make were never worshiped as God, or never worshiped at all.
However when the Roman Catholic enters the church he genuflects in front of the cross (a crucifix or image of God) bowing down in front of Him, giving him due reverence--a form of worship. There is the season of Fifteen Stations of Cross. Before each station (an image) one bows and prays. That is idolatry. That is what the Ten Commandments is speaking of. When a graven image is made and is prayed before it is idolatry. Likewise, we had a medallion (image) of St. Christopher on the dash of our car, and prayed to IT to keep us safe while driving. Since that time the discovery has been made that St. Christopher never existed in the first place. :tonofbricks: How else would one define idolatry. Every prayer to Mary is idolatry. And every representation of her is a graven image of one who is prayed to as "another god." This is polytheism for Mary cannot answer your prayers. And yet she is treated as God is.
According to the bible, idoloters really believed their idols were gods. This isn't the case with Catholic and Orthodox symbols. When God gave the commandment regarding idloltry, I think He meant for it to be understood in the literal form.
It doesn't have to be that way. Read the commandments in Exodus 20.
Do not make unto me any graven image.
Do not bow down before them.
This the Catholic Church does. They are guilty of it.
Can't tell you how many Baptist churches I've been in with pictures of Jesus, crosses, altars with bibles, etc.
As far as a picture of Jesus, I actually agree with you.
But a cross and a Bible--do they bow down in front of them? Is a Bible a symbol of anything? No, it is the Word of God that the Lord has given us. It his revelation to mankind. He expects us to use it. To be ignorant of it is sin.
BTW, I know what I worship and what I don't. I have said before, if I am wrong about Christ presence in the Eucharist, I am guilty of idolotry. Pictures, icons, statues and the like I do not worship. I do worship Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
Do you have or make an image of God (in any shape, likeness or form). The answer is yes. Jesus is God.
At any time do you bow down in front of that image?
The answer is yes.
That is idolatry.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is the worship of anything but God that is wrong and sinful. The mere images, symbols or icons doesn't constitute idolotry. Remember Moses and the brass serpent? How about in the Holy of Holies? Were not images of angels made by the command of God?

According to the bible, idoloters really believed their idols were gods. This isn't the case with Catholic and Orthodox symbols. When God gave the commandment regarding idloltry, I think He meant for it to be understood in the literal form.

Can't tell you how many Baptist churches I've been in with pictures of Jesus, crosses, altars with bibles, etc.

BTW, I know what I worship and what I don't. I have said before, if I am wrong about Christ presence in the Eucharist, I am guilty of idolotry. Pictures, icons, statues and the like I do not worship. I do worship Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

Can I ask you a question? What do you do differently between God, Jesus, Mary, the saints? How do you worship God? What sorts of things do you to for God that you don't do for Mary or the saints? What is your definition of worship and how does that practically differ from veneration?
 

Amy.G

New Member
I watched part of the March for Life on TV and a Catholic (I can't recall his name or title) was giving a speech. He said that we need "to ask Mary" to pray for those who have abortions and support abortions, etc. so that they will see this is wrong.

Why should a Christian ask Mary to pray for these people? First of all, asking Mary is speaking to a dead person - she's dead and she can't hear us and there is no teaching in the Bible that a Christian should ask a dead person to pray for anyone.

Secondly, can't a Christian who is able to go before the throne of God through the blood of Christ pray to God for these people? Of course we can!

Thirdly, praying to Mary is a form of worship - we are to pray only to God. If someone tries to say that asking Mary is not prayer, that is a distinction with no difference.

This is one of the very unbiblical practices and teachings of the RCC. These kind of practices are endemic to the RCC.
:thumbs:

Lu*11:1 ¶ And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
Lu*11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Lu*11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
Lu*11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

A parallel passage is Matthew 6:9-13.


This is the model of prayer. We are to pray to God the Father. Nowhere in the NT is a prayer offered to anyone else. Jesus always prayed to the Father and taught others to do the same.


Praying to Mary or any other saint is nothing more than man made false doctrine. Why Catholics cannot see this is baffling to me.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The context of the Ten Commandments is "God."
The images God commanded the Israelites to make were never worshiped as God, or never worshiped at all.

However when the Roman Catholic enters the church he genuflects in front of the cross (a crucifix or image of God) bowing down in front of Him, giving him due reverence--a form of worship. There is the season of Fifteen Stations of Cross. Before each station (an image) one bows and prays. That is idolatry. That is what the Ten Commandments is speaking of. When a graven image is made and is prayed before it is idolatry.

1. First of all - I am very much tied to upholding the authority and validity of the Ten Commandments - written in stone - spoken by God Himself in Ex 20.

As first Kings 8 points out - inside the Ark of the covenant -- the only law that was placed there was the Ten Commandments.

2. Having been to India numerous times, and having questioned my driver and guide to the Taj Mahal in person on this point -- Hindus and Buddhists pray to their gods using images. They never claim that the image IS god -- simply that it represents the god to whom they pray.

So when they face their idol and pray to the god it represents they are fully conscious of the fact that the god they pray to is not in fact the piece of metal in front of them.

It doesn't have to be that way. Read the commandments in Exodus 20.
Do not make unto me any graven image.
Do not bow down before them.

This is exactly what the Hindus and Buddhists do.

They bow down "before them" but they pray to the god that it represents.

In the Catholic case of the bread that is supposedly confected to become the body of Our Lord Jesus Christ - even the Catholic book "The Faith Explained" admits that this is a form of idolatry (worshipping bread as though it were God) IF the RC doctrine on confecting God (transubtantiation) is not correct.

Furthermore based on that Catholic Digest explanation for praying to the saints - we have nothing more than a direct parallel to ancestor worship - only praying to "better dead people" (at best) -- if in fact the Catholic view of the dead in heaven hearing and answering prayers is as wrong as Isaiah 8:20 makes it appear.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Why should a Christian ask Mary to pray for these people? First of all, asking Mary is speaking to a dead person - she's dead and she can't hear us and there is no teaching in the Bible that a Christian should ask a dead person to pray for anyone.

Isaiah 8:20 is very explicit that the living should not "consult the dead on behalf of the living".

When Saul goes to the witch of Endore to consult with a dead person of no less stature than Samuel himself -- God says that he "became Saul's enemy" for consulting with the dead through a medium.

So the trick of "praying to the right dead" did not save him.

in Christ,

Bob
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Can I ask you a question? What do you do differently between God, Jesus, Mary, the saints? How do you worship God? What sorts of things do you to for God that you don't do for Mary or the saints? What is your definition of worship and how does that practically differ from veneration?

I give Adoration to God and only to God.

I don't do anything for Mary or any of the saints of God (Old or NT) except to give them honor. BTW, you may consider them dead but my bible tells me they are quite alive. Their souls are absent from their bodies but their souls are very much alive.

So, to answer your question:

God=Adoration
Saints of God=Honor
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I give Adoration to God and only to God.

I don't do anything for Mary or any of the saints of God (Old or NT) except to give them honor. BTW, you may consider them dead but my bible tells me they are quite alive. Their souls are absent from their bodies but their souls are very much alive.

So, to answer your question:

God=Adoration
Saints of God=Honor

What, practically, is the difference between adoration and honor? What shows differently in your acts and your heart between adoration and honor?
 

lori4dogs

New Member
I give honor or high respect for that persons willingness to follow God's will. Since the Blessed Mother is usually the source of most protestants objection, I will use her as an example. I give her honor for responding to God's very special vocation. I can't imagine she had a clue what Gabriel was telling her that God wanted of her, however, she said 'be it done unto me according to your will.' That is the kind of answer I would hope to give if I were to be asked.

Adoration is reserved for God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) alone. I give God worship which is fervent, reverent, and devoted love.

Ann, I would like to give this more time. I will continue to answer this question hopefully later today. Have a wonderful 'Lord's Day'.
 

Peggy

New Member
We honor people who have done great things in the past, like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson - the founding fathers of our country.

We also honor Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the founding fathers of our faith.

We worship God.

I think it's pretty easy to distinguish between honor and worship even if you are not a member of the RCC.

Its just when religion gets thrown in the mix, people get all confused.
 
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Alive in Christ

New Member
Peggy...

"We honor people who have done great things in the past, like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson - the founding fathers of our country.

We also honor Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the founding fathers of our faith.

We worship God.

I think it's pretty easy to distinguish between honor and worship even if you are not a member of the RCC."


The problem is that with the RCC this *difference* between how they treat God vs Mary is just a smokescreen. They decide to call the God worship "Dulia", and the Mary worship "Latria"...and they actually expect everyone to fall for it.

Mary is clearly "High and Lifted up". Sometimes figuratively, sometimes literally.

She is considered to have supernatural attributes and powers.

In some prayers to her they "entrust the whole world" into her care. She is referred to as the "Queen of the Universe"

People travel the world over to go to these places where "Marian apperitions" are said to occur. If they do, the worships are in rapturous extacy....completely oblivous to they fact that they are worshipping a demon.

In many countries a statue of her is held high and paraded around they city, as rapturous worshippers sing her praises.

In Catholic Churches people light candles at the foot of a statue of Mary, expecting a miracle from her.

In the common Catholic repetitious prayer know as the "Hail Mary", there are TEN mentions of Mary to every ONE mention of God or Jesus.

On and on it goes.

All statements that they are not "worshipping" Mary are utterly disingenuinous and completely without merit.

May God have mercy.
 
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lori4dogs

New Member
Alive in Christ:

You make a lot of assumptions. You say Catholics light candles at the foot of a statue of her expecting a miracle from HER! Not if they payed attention in catechism. As I have said before, I know who and what I worship. I do not worship Mary or any of the saints.

As a Catholic, I don't have to believe in any of apparitions of Mary. I do happen to believe there is overwhelming evidence she has made appearances, but the church does not say I have to believe that she did.

Catholics ask the saints to intercede for us. Just like I can ask you to intercede for me.
We know from the book of Hebrews that we are surrounded 'by a cloud of witnesses'. I believe them to be those already united to the Lord in heaven. This is just my personal opinion and not from the catechism but I believe it is not so much a matter of themhearingbut knowing. The fullness of revelation after our passing from this world.

1 Cor 13:12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Alive in Christ:

You make a lot of assumptions. You say Catholics light candles at the foot of a statue of her expecting a miracle from HER! Not if they payed attention in catechism. As I have said before, I know who and what I worship. I do not worship Mary or any of the saints.
You do which you know not.
"Let him that is ignorant remain ignorant still."
And Jesus spoke unto them in parables that hearing they might not understand.

The Muslims kiss a black stone at least once every year in their Hajj or yearly pilgrimage to Mecca, but still deny they worship it, or commit idolatry.
But what does the Bible say concerning it?
The blind lead the blind and they both fall into the ditch.

You are blind to the truth of God's Word. You won't listen to it. You repeat RCC jargon, but it doesn't harmonize with the Word of God. In fact it goes contrary to it.
You say you do not worship Mary. If (as any good Catholic does) you pray through the rosary, you worship Mary. This is worship of Mary:
Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of our death, Amen.
This is obvious worship of Mary as a god. It is petitioning her as a god. It is asking her, as the mother of God, to pray for you now and that the hour of your death--as if she has some magical power to do so.
It is praising her as a god: "Hail Mary." It is exalting her as a God--blessed above all women.

Do you address any other person in that way? Do you ask other people to pray for you in that way? Is this simply "asking another person to pray for you." No, definitely not. Would you get down on your knees and pray to me in a request to pray for you? It is not simply a request. It is prayer of adoration and worship--worship that belongs only to God, and therefore idolatry. Both Ann and Bob can give you many more examples of prayers to Mary.
As a Catholic, I don't have to believe in any of apparitions of Mary. I do happen to believe there is overwhelming evidence she has made appearances, but the church does not say I have to believe that she did.
No, you don't. But if that is what the Catholic Church teaches then aren't you being inconsistent?
Catholics ask the saints to intercede for us. Just like I can ask you to intercede for me.
No Catholics pray to the saints. Would you pray TO me? That is worship. How many of your friends do you worship?
We know from the book of Hebrews that we are surrounded 'by a cloud of witnesses'. I believe them to be those already united to the Lord in heaven.
They are the ones gone on before us mentioned in chapter 11. They are the ones that have been martyred for Jesus or have sacrificed their lives for Christ, but most of all have lived lives of faith. They are examples.
This is just my personal opinion and not from the catechism but I believe it is not so much a matter of themhearingbut knowing. The fullness of revelation after our passing from this world.
There is no evidence anywhere that no one but God alone can hear you or see you. All those who have died are just that--dead. The resurrection has not yet taken place. To pray to the dead is a sin called necromancy, which is condemned in the Bible. It is in the same category as witchcraft, which people were put to death for. It is linked to the occult. Pray to God alone. Praying to another is a horrible sin according to the Word of God.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
Lori...

"Alive in Christ:

You make a lot of assumptions."

No.


As I have shared before, I spent 24 years as a Catholic. I know that of which I speak.

And I take time to refer to the Catholic Encylopedia, the Councils, the Catholic Catachism and other "official" sources.


The Catholic Church has been engaging in goddess worship for centuries, with Mary being the "goddess of choice" in their worship.

But...realising that that presents a very troubling little *problem*, they simply dreamed up this utterly ridiculous "We dont worship Mary, we *venerate* (wink wink) her buisness. And this equally absurd "Latria" vs "Dulia" lie.

NONSENSE!

That is rubbish.

This counterfiet "Mary" is the Goddess of choice for the Catholic Church. and she is indeed worshipped.

You...along with millions of others...have been hoodwinked, Lori.

Dont let them do this to you. The stakes are too high.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
Lori,


Let me present a hypothetical situation to you for your consideration.

Lets say that you have a daughter. And lets say that...God forbid that this would actually happen...that someone, a home invader, breaks in to rob you, and in the process he shoots and kills your daughter.

You call the police, and they catch him. You and your next door neighbor identify him.

But then, a few days later the police call and tell you they let him go. He is a free man.

You frantically ask him why, and they say...


Well, Lori...you see, he didnt call it murder. He said he didnt "murder" her, no...he had a different word for it.

He said that he "zoned" her.

We cant very well change him with murder, can we? I mean, he called it something else. We have no law against "zoning" somebody.

You and I would both be irate, and we would say....


I DONT CARE what he called it! I DONT CARE what word he used. The evidence that he killed her is RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES...he can call it anything he wants, but he KILLED her!


Do you get my drift?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
It is the worship of anything but God that is wrong and sinful. The mere images, symbols or icons doesn't constitute idolotry. Remember Moses and the brass serpent? How about in the Holy of Holies? Were not images of angels made by the command of God?

According to the bible, idoloters really believed their idols were gods. This isn't the case with Catholic and Orthodox symbols. When God gave the commandment regarding idloltry, I think He meant for it to be understood in the literal form.
Let's take a look at this again, this time from Scripture.
Do you remember the events of Paul entering Ephesus in Acts 19 where the great statue (idol) of Diana was situated.

Acts 19:22-24 So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.
24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
--Demetrius was a businessman. He didn't care about Christianity, and for that matter he probably didn't care about the cult of Diana. His god was money. He made the "statuettes" of this goddess that others would "worship." And he made "no small gain." In other words he made a lot of money from this trade.

Acts 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
19:24-26. silver shrines for--"of"
Diana--small models of the Ephesian temple and of the shrine or chapel of the goddess, or of the shrine and statue alone, which were purchased by visitors as memorials of what they had seen, and were carried about and deposited in houses as a charm. (The models of the chapel of our Lady of Loretto, and such like, which the Church of Rome systematically encourages, are such a palpable imitation of this heathen practice that it is no wonder it should be regarded by impartial judges as Christianity paganized). (Jamieson, Faucett and Brown)
Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
--There were many small statuettes of Diana, but there was one great temple that housed a "great goddess of Diana."
19:27 “also the temple of the great goddess Diana . . . despised, and her magnificence . . .” destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth--It was reckoned one of the wonders of the world. It was built about 550 B.C., of pure white marble, and though burned by a fanatic on the night of the birth of Alexander the Great, 356 B.C., was rebuilt with more splendor than before. It was four hundred twenty-five feet long by two hundred twenty broad, and the columns, one hundred twenty-seven in number, were sixty feet in height, each of them the gift of a king, and thirty-six of them enriched with ornament and color. It was constantly receiving new decorations and additional buildings, statues, and pictures by the most celebrated artists, and kindled unparalleled admiration, enthusiasm, and superstition. Its very site is now a matter of uncertainty. The little wooden image of Diana was as primitive and rude as its shrine was sumptuous; not like the Greek Diana, in the form of an imposing huntress, but quite Asiatic, in the form of a many-breasted female (emblematic of the manifold ministrations of Nature to man), terminating in a shapeless block. Like some other far-famed idols, it was believed to have fallen from heaven (Ac 19:35), and models of it were not only sold in immense numbers to private persons, but set up for worship in other cities [HOWSON]. What power must have attended the preaching of that one man by whom the death blow was felt to be given to their gigantic and witching superstition! (Jamieson, Faucett and Brown)
19:27 “But also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised.” This temple, so celebrated, was regarded as one of the seven wonders of the world. It was two hundred and twenty years in building, before it was brought to perfection. It was built at the expense of all Asia Minor. The original object of worship among the Ephesians was a small statue of Diana, of elm or ebony, made by one Canitias, though commonly believed in those days to have been sent down from heaven by Jupiter. It was merely an Egyptian hieroglyphic with many breasts, representing the goddess of Nature--under which idea Diana was probably worshipped at Ephesus.

“Whom all Asia. All Asia Minor. And the world.” Other parts of the world. The temple had been built by contributions from a great number of princes; and doubtless multitudes from all parts of the earth came to Ephesus to pay their homage to Diana. (Barnes)
Acts 19:35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?
19:35 he said . . . what man . . . knoweth not that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana--literally, the neocoros or "warden." The word means "temple-sweeper"; then, "temple-guardian." Thirteen cities of Asia had an interest in the temple, but Ephesus was honored with the charge of it. (Various cities have claimed this title with reference to the Virgin or certain saints) [WEBSTER and WILKINSON]. (Jamieson, Faucett, Brown)
Please note, Lori, that Diana was the goddess of fertility. The people of Ephesus, and in fact all over the known world would bow down in front of this idol, and replicas of it, and worship "Diana" the goddess that the statue represented. They were not worshiping something made of stone or wood. They worshiped what it stood for. They worshiped the spirit--the goddess of fertility, of Nature, that the statue(s) represented.

The same is true in the RCC. You bow down in front of statues. You don't say that you worship the statue. No religion does. You worship Mary or whatever saint the statue represents. That is true of every pagan religion. They don't worship the wood or stone. They worship the god which the statue represents. That is idolatry, and the very idolatry that the RCC practices, which is here demonstrated very well in Acts 19
 
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