Your view on Catholics

[Darron Steele]

We shouldn't go by what Catholics say they believe - they could be wrong, for one thing. We should go by the official teachings as they are in the Catechism and official declarations of the Pope or Magisterium.
...

Hold on; did you say that "We shouldn't go by what Catholics say they believe"?

Yeah, they "could be wrong" about "the official teachings as they are in the Catechism and official declarations of the Pope or Magisterium" -- but they are a lot less likely to be wrong about that stuff than we are.

One thing they will not be wrong on is what they personally believe and do.

 

[Marcia]

Hold on; did you say that "We shouldn't go by what Catholics say they believe"?

Yeah, they "could be wrong" about "the official teachings as they are in the Catechism and official declarations of the Pope or Magisterium" -- but they are a lot less likely to be wrong about that stuff than we are.

One thing they will not be wrong on is what they personally believe and do.

What they personally believe may not always be what the Catholic church teaches; so no, I don't go by what they say at all. I've found from experience that many times a Catholic will deny a teaching of their Church, either out of ignorance or because they disagree.

And no, they are not always less likely to be wrong than many non-Catholics who are former Catholics or who have taken the time to study. In fact, some non-Catholics may know more than the Catholics.

We should critique Catholic teachings on the official doctrine of the RCC. That to me is the most fair and logical thing to do.

 

[Marcia]

If any non-Catholic thinks that some of us make too much of the Mary issue, I invite you to read the statements on Mary in the Catechism. For example:

972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"518 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.519

Now think about that. Mary is waiting for the church and is the mother of the Church! And she is "the image and beginning of the Church." If this doesn't gall you, I don't know what would.

 

[Zenas]

What they personally believe may not always be what the Catholic church teaches; so no, I don't go by what they say at all. I've found from experience that many times a Catholic will deny a teaching of their Church, either out of ignorance or because they disagree.

And no, they are not always less likely to be wrong than many non-Catholics who are former Catholics or who have taken the time to study. In fact, some non-Catholics may know more than the Catholics.

We should critique Catholic teachings on the official doctrine of the RCC. That to me is the most fair and logical thing to do.

Marcia, the best way to learn French is to spend time in France, i.e., immerse yourself in the culture and engage in conversation with those for whom French is their native tongue. The same can be said of Catholicism. Their culture is different from Baptist culture and they perceive things somewhat differently. For anyone who would like to either view or participate in this culture, there is a board somewhat similar to this one at http://forums.catholic.com/. They allow anyone to participate, regardless of their faith and the only rule pertaining to your discussion is that you can't use words like "popish" or "Romish" or accuse the Catholic Church of being the "whore of Babylon." You will be annoyed by a few of their posters, just like we are here, but on the whole you will get an accurate picture of how their beliefs play out in their own culture. There are some interesting discussions going on right now in their Non-Catholic Religions section.

 

[lori4dogs]

If you pray to either, you are in fact worshiping them.
Quote from Pope John Paul " I do not know when it will come but I place this moment, like all other things, in the hands of the Mother of my Master: Totus Tuus. In these same motherly hands I leave everything and Everyone with whom my life and my vocation have brought me into contact. In these Hands I above all leave the Church, and also my Nation and all humankind"
If the first is true, what is the second for?
I don't think the catholic church is ever stated as such...the RCC is.
No, you just eat Him.
You do call him the Vicar (substitute) of Christ. Logical reasoning would assume if Christ is sinless, His alleged substitute needs to be as well.
Like anyone, true of some, false for others.
Correct...Christ founded the Church.
Not sure what ECF's are.
This song is getting old, not to mention the martyr syndrome (no pun intended). You are on a Baptist Board primarily, with the majority of doctrine disagreed on. It's silly to keep harping on this.

Ok, one at a time Webdog:
'If you pray to either, you are worshiping them?
One of the first signs of a "fundamentalist attack" is the charge, "Roman Catholics worship the saints. That is idolatry." You have not really studied our church. We do not worship saints, or even Mary -- we worship God and God alone. Then you ask, why are you bowing down to a statue of them?
There is a difference between the worship we give to God, which we call latria, and the veneration given to saints, which we call dulia'. "Latria is not dulia, and since we reserve latria, the form of worship, only to God, and never give it to the saints, then we obviously, are not worshiping the saints."

I suspect you not knowing much about Catholicism are saying: I don't know much about latria or dulia, but I do know this: when you bow down before a statue and say prayers and light candles, no matter what you call it, I call it worship."

Webdog: Show me how veneration is the same as worship. Something every Catholic is taught is to reserve worship only to God.

Before you respond to me on this issueand before I respond, Webdog, pray for me. Please offer up a prayer for me that I might proceed in love and charity. You know that my sarcasm, while perhaps unwanted, is I trust somewhat in Paul's tradition where he says he hopes the knife will slip. Pray for me, Webdog, as I will for you. That is intercessory prayer. That is what happens when I ask St. Mary or St. Anthony, etc. to pray for me. That cloud of witnesses in Hebrews!

You see, There really is a difference between 'worship' and 'veneration. I believe the souls of the faithful have who have gone before us are very much alive, not their physical bodies, we pray for the resurrection of the dead. I also believe they can pray for us, it is called the communion of saints. Just as I can ask you to pray for me, I can ask the faithful departed to pray for me as well. We are told about that 'cloud of witnesses in Hebrews' I neither worship them nor adore them but I ask their intercession.

I have used this example before. I entered a Baptist church where the pastor was kneeling before a chair with a bible sitting open on it and he was in prayer. Which was he worshiping, the Bible or the chair?

There are a lot of confused Catholics out there. Lots of confused protestants as well. That is my purpose for coming to this board. I, by no means, understand the Catholic faith well enough to defend it as so many much more learned than I am. I am only a recent convert from to the Church. But since Catholics are for the most part banned from defending their faith on this board I will try (as long as I am allowed) to do so and my hope is that I will learn a lot more in the process. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

Also, there have been Catholics down through the ages who have had fervent devotion to the Blessed Mother and in their zeal have not used the best choice of words in their attempt to honor her. I'm not here to defend them. Martin Luther himself had asked the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Our primary cause is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and carrying that message of salvation through Him alone to the lost of this world.

 

[lori4dogs]

Marcia, the best way to learn French is to spend time in France, i.e., immerse yourself in the culture and engage in conversation with those for whom French is their native tongue. The same can be said of Catholicism. Their culture is different from Baptist culture and they perceive things somewhat differently. For anyone who would like to either view or participate in this culture, there is a board somewhat similar to this one at http://forums.catholic.com/. They allow anyone to participate, regardless of their faith and the only rule pertaining to your discussion is that you can't use words like "popish" or "Romish" or accuse the Catholic Church of being the "whore of Babylon." You will be annoyed by a few of their posters, just like we are here, but on the whole you will get an accurate picture of how their beliefs play out in their own culture. There are some interesting discussions going on right now in their Non-Catholic Religions section.

Zenas: This is an excellent suggestion. I do not just participate on this board but on several others. One is Catholic and I am annoyed by some of their posters but I believe I'm getting a much more accurate understanding of the faith.

Marcia: You are obviously very well read and devoted to fairness in discussion. I appreciate your contributions on this board and hope you might find time to share some of your insights on other boards as well.

 

[DHK]

Ok, one at a time Webdog:
'If you pray to either, you are worshiping them?
One of the first signs of a "fundamentalist attack" is the charge, "Roman Catholics worship the saints. That is idolatry." You have not really studied our church. We do not worship saints, or even Mary -- we worship God and God alone. Then you ask, why are you bowing down to a statue of them?
Thee is a difference between the worship we give to God, which we call latria, and the veneration given to saints, which we call dulia'. "Latria is not dulia, and since we reserve latria, the form of worship, only to God, and never give it to the saints, then we obviously, are not worshipping the saints."

I suspect you not knowing much about Catholicism are saying: I don't know much about latria or dulia, but I do know this: when you bow down before a statue and say prayers and light candles, no matter what you call it, I call it worship."

Let me enlighten you:

(Greek doulia; Latin servitus), a theological term signifying the honour paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone, and hyperdulia the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05188b.htm

The Catholic Church has divided "worship" into three divisions: doulia, latria, and hyperdoulia. In reality all three are a form of worship. All three, according to the Bible are worship. To redefine worship does not mean it still isn't worship. To rename blue red, doesn't mean that the blue still isn't blue. You can call blue any color you want. But blue will remain blue no matter which color you rename it. The Bible gives us the definition of worship in the Ten Commandments. The RCC defy this definition, defy the Ten Commandments, give no regard to them, and go on committing idolatry in spite of them.



1. Latria is worship given to God alone, and that is the only kind of worship there is. God alone is to be worshiped. God alone is to be prayed to. The angel in heaven would not permit John so much as even to bow down to him. He was to worship (bow down before) God alone.



2. "Doulia is the honour paid to saints," so they say. But this is the same as latria in reality. Why? Because all honor goes to God. Only God is worthy. Only he is worthy of honor.

Here is what the Bible says about it:


Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--Who alone is worthy?
--Who alone is worthy of glory; worthy of honor; worthy of power?
It is not Mary! It is not the saints!


3. Hyperdoulia is the veneration offered to Mary.
Simply stated it is another form of worship, but the RCC will not admit. Instead of admitting the obvious they would rather redefine words. Redefining the word "worship" as "hyperdoulia" doesn't not change the fact that it is still worship. It is still worship. Analyze any prayer made to Mary and ask yourself honestly whether or not that is worship. If you are praying TO someone you are worshiping that person.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

What they personally believe may not always be what the Catholic church teaches

Agreed. We've already shown that Lori4dogs, for example, is at variance with the Catholic Church on several doctrines.

I've found from experience that many times a Catholic will deny a teaching of their Church, either out of ignorance or because they disagree.

Remember also that Catholics practice their own brand of taquyaa (that is, the Muslim practice that tells Muslims that it's OK to lie in order to deceive infidels).

And no, they are not always less likely to be wrong than many non-Catholics who are former Catholics or who have taken the time to study. In fact, some non-Catholics may know more than the Catholics.

I always find it amusing that Catholics are convinced that they're experts on Christianity because they used to be Christians, but if a Christian used to be Catholic, he automatically forgot everything he ever learned about Catholicism the moment he left.

Let me enlighten you:



The Catholic Church has divided "worship" into three divisions: doulia, latria, and hyperdoulia. In reality all three are a form of worship. All three, according to the Bible are worship. To redefine worship does not mean it still isn't worship. To rename blue red, doesn't mean that the blue still isn't blue. You can call blue any color you want. But blue will remain blue no matter which color you rename it. The Bible gives us the definition of worship in the Ten Commandments. The RCC defy this definition, defy the Ten Commandments, give no regard to them, and go on committing idolatry in spite of them.



1. Latria is worship given to God alone, and that is the only kind of worship there is. God alone is to be worshiped. God alone is to be prayed to. The angel in heaven would not permit John so much as even to bow down to him. He was to worship (bow down before) God alone.



2. "Doulia is the honour paid to saints," so they say. But this is the same as latria in reality. Why? Because all honor goes to God. Only God is worthy. Only he is worthy of honor.

Here is what the Bible says about it:


Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--Who alone is worthy?
--Who alone is worthy of glory; worthy of honor; worthy of power?
It is not Mary! It is not the saints!


3. Hyperdoulia is the veneration offered to Mary.
Simply stated it is another form of worship, but the RCC will not admit. Instead of admitting the obvious they would rather redefine words. Redefining the word "worship" as "hyperdoulia" doesn't not change the fact that it is still worship. It is still worship. Analyze any prayer made to Mary and ask yourself honestly whether or not that is worship. If you are praying TO someone you are worshiping that person.

I once tried to make this very point on another board by asking the Catholic posters to list some of the Biblical characteristics of worship.

I then took this list and compared it to the things they had said about their "veneration" of Mary and they matched, word for word. Even with that comparison right in front of them, they still denied it.

Catholics just get around such problems by redefining words.

 

[lori4dogs]

'Remember also that Catholics practice their own brand of taquyaa (that is, the Muslim practice that tells Muslims that it's OK to lie in order to deceive infidels)'

Wow, we do?

How about: http://www.catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p3.asp

Christianity and CRI both exposed Chick Publications for the lies they have concocted to slander the Catholic Church and one of our 'so called' Christian bookstores still stocks their bigotry on their shelves.

Everytime I have posted anything about the Chick Publications all you anti-Catholics get real quiet! I guess the end justifys the means.

Oh, and there is John MacArthur lying about the Catholic Church teaching that purgatory is 'a second chance' to obtain salvation after death.

 

[lori4dogs]

Let me enlighten you:



The Catholic Church has divided "worship" into three divisions: doulia, latria, and hyperdoulia. In reality all three are a form of worship. All three, according to the Bible are worship. To redefine worship does not mean it still isn't worship. To rename blue red, doesn't mean that the blue still isn't blue. You can call blue any color you want. But blue will remain blue no matter which color you rename it. The Bible gives us the definition of worship in the Ten Commandments. The RCC defy this definition, defy the Ten Commandments, give no regard to them, and go on committing idolatry in spite of them.



1. Latria is worship given to God alone, and that is the only kind of worship there is. God alone is to be worshiped. God alone is to be prayed to. The angel in heaven would not permit John so much as even to bow down to him. He was to worship (bow down before) God alone.



2. "Doulia is the honour paid to saints," so they say. But this is the same as latria in reality. Why? Because all honor goes to God. Only God is worthy. Only he is worthy of honor.

Here is what the Bible says about it:


Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--Who alone is worthy?
--Who alone is worthy of glory; worthy of honor; worthy of power?
It is not Mary! It is not the saints!


3. Hyperdoulia is the veneration offered to Mary.
Simply stated it is another form of worship, but the RCC will not admit. Instead of admitting the obvious they would rather redefine words. Redefining the word "worship" as "hyperdoulia" doesn't not change the fact that it is still worship. It is still worship. Analyze any prayer made to Mary and ask yourself honestly whether or not that is worship. If you are praying TO someone you are worshiping that person.

Actually, DHK, it is YOU who are saying these are three divisions of worship.
The Catholic Church spells it out quite well.

1. Latria is worship given to God alone, and that is the only kind of worship there is. God alone is to be worshiped. God alone is to be prayed to. The angel in heaven would not permit John so much as even to bow down to him. He was to worship (bow down before) God alone.

DHK, I am not saying there are not places where Mary is given too much attention. Some theologians have not always used the best terminology in their expressions of love for Theotokos. But the Church plainly spells out that 'Latria' is worship given to God and God alone. You are saying the Church says one thing but really means another.

 

[lori4dogs]

Hey JDF:

I have asked you before (with no response) to provide us with the link to the posting on Catholic.com where you claim you were 'banned for sharing the gospel'. I suspect you were banned for something else. You have made personal attacks against posters on this Baptist board. Calling people fools and such. That wouldn't have had anything do with it, would it?

I have done a lot of reading on that Catholic board and have never seen anyone banned for sharing the gospel.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Lori...

"DHK, I am not saying there are not places where Mary is given too much attention. Some theologians have not always used the best terminology in their expressions of love for Theotokos. But the Church plainly spells out that 'Latria' is worship given to God and God alone. You are saying the Church says one thing but really means another.

All of this "Dulia" vs "Latrea" worship buisiness is nothing but the Catholic Church attempting to "hoodwink" everyone into believing that the Catholic Church is not guilty of something that the ARE guilty of.

Goddess worship.

Mary is worshipped, prayed to, and viewed as being omnipresent (hearing prayers from millions all at the same time).

In many countries statues of her are are held "high and lifted up" while thousands or worshippers are in rapturous extacy as they praise their goddess.

She is referred ro as "The Queen of the Universe".


Dont let them lie to you, Lori.

 

[DHK]

Actually, DHK, it is YOU who are saying these are three divisions of worship.
The Catholic Church spells it out quite well.

1. Latria is worship given to God alone, and that is the only kind of worship there is. God alone is to be worshiped. God alone is to be prayed to. The angel in heaven would not permit John so much as even to bow down to him. He was to worship (bow down before) God alone.

DHK, I am not saying there are not places where Mary is given too much attention. Some theologians have not always used the best terminology in their expressions of love for Theotokos. But the Church plainly spells out that 'Latria' is worship given to God and God alone. You are saying the Church says one thing but really means another.

I didn't divide worship into those three man-made divisions. The Catholic Church did. Did you not see the URL. It is straight from the Catholic Encyclopedia, a well-known Catholic source of information.

I am saying what the Bible says. The Bible is our standard in all matters of faith and doctrine. Now you know why I keep telling you that the Catholics hate so much the doctrine of sola scriptura. They have another authority greater than the Bible. It is the Magesterium that has created their Catechism based on Tradition. This they have put above and beyond the doctrines of the Bible.

Worship is confined to God alone. It is not subdivided into three different areas. The Catholic Church did that for the sole purpose that they could worship: idols, dead saints, Mary, and not call it idolatry. It is idolatry. They don't want to admit it, so they call it something else. They have redefined the word "worship." Dulia and Hyperdulia are still worship; worship of other gods--saints and Mary. You are right in that I am not defining it the way that the RCC defines it; but rather the way the Bible defines it. My authority is the Bible.

It is like this. Ask any Muslim if they commit idolatry. Absolutely not! They, like the RCC, are dead set against the worship of objects. They worship Allah and him alone. But point out to them that when they go on their pilgrimage to Mecca, and go to the Kaaba and there they kiss the black stone in the corner of the Kaaba. That is worship; that is idolatry. They will deny it; but according to the Bible it is idolatry.

My standard is the Bible: not what Islam says; not what the RCC says. If both you and Islam want to deny the meaning of idolatry then so be it. The Ten Commandments have clearly spelled out what idolatry is. In most cases the Catholics omit part of these commands.

Exodus 20:3-5 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Isn't it obvious why these commandments are often left out of the Catholic version of the Ten Commandments.

 

[DHK]

'
Christianity and CRI both exposed Chick Publications for the lies they have concocted to slander the Catholic Church and one of our 'so called' Christian bookstores still stocks their bigotry on their shelves.

Everytime I have posted anything about the Chick Publications all you anti-Catholics get real quiet! I guess the end justifys the means.

No, we don't get real quiet.
We have told you many times that we don't use Chick Publications. I don't. And I know that some others have told you the same. For you to bring it up is: one, a false allegation, and two, a red herring that has no bearing on this debate.

 

[lori4dogs]

No, we don't get real quiet.
We have told you many times that we don't use Chick Publications. I don't. And I know that some others have told you the same. For you to bring it up is: one, a false allegation, and two, a red herring that has no bearing on this debate.

That is interesting, DHK, I was handed a 'Chick Tract' by a baptist not that long ago. A man that attends Landmark Missionary Baptist Church was passing them out to people after mass.

Let me share some more Baptist experiences. When I attended California Baptist University one of the men in our dorm would stand outside of local Catholic Churches with a bull-horn and evangelize while mass was being celebrated. Shouting things like 'Mary can't save you' and 'Jesus isn't still on that cross'. He was eventually arrested for disturbing the peace. When the local newspaper interviewed him he said he was a student at CBU and just trying to get some Catholics saved.

 

[lori4dogs]

When you say 'we don't use them'. (Chick Tracts) Who are you speaking for? All posters on this board? All Baptist?

 

[Alive in Christ]

(((EDIT)))

accidental duplicate post

 

[DHK]

When you say 'we don't use them'. (Chick Tracts) Who are you speaking for? All posters on this board? All Baptist?

I know that many Baptists use them; that is not what I meant.
The people that I am referring to as "we" are most of the people that are having a debate/conversation with you right now. Of course I can't speak for all Baptists, not even all posters on this board.

 

[annsni]

When you say 'we don't use them'. (Chick Tracts) Who are you speaking for? All posters on this board? All Baptist?

No church that I know of uses them.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Hey JDF:

I have asked you before (with no response) to provide us with the link to the posting on Catholic.com where you claim you were 'banned for sharing the gospel'.

There isn't one. It isn't a part of the thread. It's a message that I get when I try to sign in.

I suspect you were banned for something else.

You're welcome to believe whatever you like. I copy and pasted that message as it appears and as it was written by the administration of that site.

You have made personal attacks against posters on this Baptist board. Calling people fools and such. That wouldn't have had anything do with it, would it?

No, I doubt very seriously another board would have banned me for quoting the Bible on this board.

I have done a lot of reading on that Catholic board and have never seen anyone banned for sharing the gospel.

I've talked to several people who have been banned for similar reasons.

You're welcome to search my posts there and report back to us which one you think I was banned for.

Wow, we do?

Yes, you do.

Oh, and there is John MacArthur lying about the Catholic Church teaching that purgatory is 'a second chance' to obtain salvation after death.

Actually, this isn't a lie. I showed you five Catholic sources that all stated that the purpose of the mythical land of Purgatory that your cult clings to so tightly is for the expiation of sin.