Your view on Catholics

[DHK]

But you're taking it out on the people.

I would rebuke a person, a Christian who would defend heresy.
Otherwise I would hope I would show very clearly the heresy of the RCC.

 

[Johnv]

I would rebuke a person a Christian who would defend heresy.

I'm not in any way defending Catholicism here, as demonstrated by the fact that I've voiced my own criticisms about Catholicism. But it's obvious you've had a bad experience with Catholicism. You're incorrectly assuming that all other Catholics are going to have that same bad experience. I'm all for extracting the bones out of the fish. You're assuming that the RCC is all bone. I don't concur.

 

[DHK]

I'm not in any way defending Catholicism here, as demonstrated by the fact that I've voiced my own criticisms about Catholicism. But it's obvious you've had a bad experience with Catholicism. You're incorrectly assuming that all other Catholics are going to have that same bad experience. I'm all for extracting the bones out of the fish. You're assuming that the RCC is all bone. I don't concur.

It is not simply my 20 years experience.
Study the Catechism. There is no gospel. No message of salvation by grace through faith. It is a false gospel of works by which one cannot be saved.

 

[Johnv]

It sounds like a major issue with you is with the idea of salvation not being based on faith alone.

 

[DHK]

It sounds like a major issue with you is with the idea of salvation not being based on faith alone.

Yes it is. Any other way is a false gospel.

 

[Johnv]

Yes it is. Any other way is a false gospel.

Not to derail the thread, but what about all those on this board who espouse extreme arminianism, which, in practice, denies salvation on faith alone? I'm not so sure I would accuse them of false doctrine, but hey, that's just me.

 

[DHK]

Not to derail the thread, but what about all those on this board who espouse extreme arminianism, which, in practice, denies salvation on faith alone? I'm not so sure I would accuse them of false doctrine, but hey, that's just me.

I don't find that at all. Most of the "non-Cals" such as myself would never deny salvation salvation by faith alone. I have not met anyone that does, except for the occasional person in the Other Christian Forums. This forum is for an exchange of ideas between different denominations. Yes, some believe one can lose their salvation. They also can be evangelical and not believe heretical doctrines like the RCC. The RCC believes a plethora of heretical doctrines which makes it impossible to be saved and believe their doctrine at the same time.
It is impossible to believe in Purgatory, for example, and still believe that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all your sins.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

If Lori is a true believer then she cannot be a Catholic.
You cannot be both and believe both systems at the same time. It is an impossibility, just as you cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time, or a Hindu and a Christian at the same time. When you become a Christian you forsake your former religion. I did. I had to. The doctrines of both: the RCC and Christianity at extreme opposites of each other. By default of some of their beliefs they don't believe that Christ died for their sins. You see, their Catechism is contradictory.

Christianity teaches that Christ atoned for all our sins.
The RCC teaches that they must atone for their sins in Purgatory; Christ did not pay the full atonement. His sacrifice was in vain. Else why would their be a need for Purgatory where further "purging" would be necessary.

Christianity teaches that salvation is by grace through faith.
The RCC teaches that salvation is by works. Baptism is a work. Keeping the ten commandments is works. Confirmation is a work. All of the sacraments are works. These are what save a person in the RCC, especially baptism and the sacraments. There is no salvation outside of them. Thus salvation is by works not by grace; not by faith.
They cannot understand this simple Scripture:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--nor this one:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Christianity teaches that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice.
The RCC teaches that the Bible + Tradition + Papal Decrees + many other things are their authority. The Bible is not their authority. In fact the Biblical doctrine of "sola scriptura" is a doctrine that is hated among the Catholics.

Christianity teaches that salvation is through Christ alone.
The RCC teaches that salvation is through Christ and Mary, and possibly more than that.
They treat Mary as another god. The pray to her; petition her; venerate her; worship her, etc. To them she is God, though they will not admit it. The Bible describes Mary, as the RCC treats her as a god. This is idolatry. It is also polytheism.

These are only some of the extremes. There are more than this.
You cannot believe what the RCC teaches and believe what Christianity teaches at the same time. You must choose one or the other. You cannot be both.

Disclaimer: I am not Catholic. Never been Catholic. Never plan on being Catholic. As a Reformed Christian, we are hardly considered "Catholic sympathizers." That being said, I do know plenty of people who are both Christian and Catholic. I've even heard the "sinner's prayer" from a Catholic pulpit.

I will debate their doctrine. I will point out their errors -- as I see them anyway. Hopefully with heaps of love and grace thrown in. Engage in discussions. Try to better understand their point of view. Pray with and for them.

What I won't do is tell them that they are not a Christian when they claim they are.

 

[Johnv]

Disclaimer: I am not Catholic. Never been Catholic. Never plan on being Catholic. As a Reformed Christian, we are hardly considered "Catholic sympathizers." That being said, I do know plenty of people who are both Christian and Catholic. I've even heard the "sinner's prayer" from a Catholic pulpit.

I will debate their doctrine. I will point out their errors -- as I see them anyway. Hopefully with heaps of love and grace thrown in. Engage in discussions. Try to better understand their point of view. Pray with and for them.

What I won't do is tell them that they are not a Christian when they claim they are.

That's my position exactly. Yet I'm deemed to be a "Catholic Defender". Go figure.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Friend of Spurgeon: What I won't do is tell them that they are not a Christian when they claim they are.

HP: Now that is a novel point for some to consider, i.e., actually posting in accordance to the stated rules of this forum. Hmmmmm. :wavey:

 

[lori4dogs]

It sounds like a major issue with you is with the idea of salvation not being based on faith alone.

Yes, DHK clams the Catholic Church does not teach that 'We are saved by grace through faith, it is a gift of God, NOT OF Works, lest any man should boast.' But the CATHOLIC CHURCH teaches it, believes, evangelizes with it (Eph. 2:8-9.

He just claims that our understanding of grace is different than a 'true believers' understanding of grace.

DHK has a hatred of the Catholic Church. No matter how many times he is corrected as to the true teaching of the Church he will say that the Catholic Church teaches a system of salvation of Works alone. He is WRONG!

 

[DHK]

Yes, DHK clams the Catholic Church does not teach that 'We are saved by grace through faith, it is a gift of God, NOT OF Works, lest any man should boast.' But the CATHOLIC CHURCH teaches it, believes, evangelizes with it (Eph. 2:8-9.

I know I am not wrong.
Tell me. Is baptism "a means of grace"? Yes or no.
Is baptism "a work"? Yes or no.

He just claims that our understanding of grace is different than a 'true believers' understanding of grace.

OK, then, define grace. What is it?
How is it obtained according to the RCC Catechism.
How is it obtained according to the Bible.

DHK has a hatred of the Catholic Church. No matter how many times he is corrected as to the true teaching of the Church he will say that the Catholic Church teaches a system of salvation of Works alone. He is WRONG!

No, I have a hatred for their doctrine, doctrine that sends people daily to hell.
Correct me where I am wrong. But if you are wrong, will you accept correction?

 

[lori4dogs]

'It is impossible to believe in Purgatory, for example, and still believe that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all your sins.'

It is Christ sacrifice that makes EVERYTHING sufficient for sins. Purgatory is a process of Theosis not a 'second chance at salvation'. When you die your are either bound to hell or bound to heaven. You can't earn salvation in purgatory. It is a process of Theosis. Your salvation has already been determined by whether you turned to Jesus, repented of your sins (here on earth) and confessed with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead to prove He was the Son of God."

If you made that confession of faith sometime during your life here on earth you will have a new spirit (as I did) within you and desire to follow Christ to spread the Good News of salvation in Christ Jesus. For me it is my participation in Many, Many Catholic Evangelistic crusades where hundreds and sometimes thousands repent and turn to Jesus as Lord and Savior. False Gospel you say, DHK. My bible says: Romans 3:23,Romans 6:23, Romans 10:9. Oh, and 'Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

I could care less if it happens in a Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc.

We should rejoice with the angels when one lost person turns to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[Allan]

Disclaimer: I am not Catholic. Never been Catholic. Never plan on being Catholic. As a Reformed Christian, we are hardly considered "Catholic sympathizers." That being said, I do know plenty of people who are both Christian and Catholic. I've even heard the "sinner's prayer" from a Catholic pulpit.

I will debate their doctrine. I will point out their errors -- as I see them anyway. Hopefully with heaps of love and grace thrown in. Engage in discussions. Try to better understand their point of view. Pray with and for them.

This is the way that I deal with Catholics (and anyone else for that matter) and God has graciously allowed me to personally bring a great many to the truth of the scriptures.

What I won't do is tell them that they are not a Christian when they claim they are.

The term 'christian' is almost meaningless anymore since even JW's, Mormons, and other cults all say they are christians. I don't even take for granted another baptist saying they are saved. I will always ask them their salvation testimony, and then I will ask them two final questions.
1. If you were to stand before God right now, and He were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, what would you tell God?

2. Based on that answer, what kind of a percentage do you give youself (out of 100) of God letting you in?

Based upon the answers to those three questions, I have a really good idea if I am dealing with a true Christian, or someone who needs Christ and all the loving help I can offer so they might understand and call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. IOW - If by their answer I believe they might not, then I am bound by love and the great commision to tell them, and then talk with them about scripture, my beliefs, about my concern with whatever part that lead me to question their statement of being a christain

 

[lori4dogs]

'OK, then, define grace. What is it?
How is it obtained according to the RCC Catechism.
How is it obtained according to the Bible.'

Study the bible, study the Catechism (derived from the bible0

I found it to be in 'one accord'

 

[DHK]

'It is impossible to believe in Purgatory, for example, and still believe that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all your sins.'

It is Christ sacrifice that makes EVERYTHING sufficient for sins. Purgatory is a process of Theosis not a 'second chance at salvation'. When you die your are either bound to hell or bound to heaven. You can't earn salvation in purgatory. It is a process of Theosis.

Let's look at this heresy

In Orthodox and Eastern Catholic theology, theosis (Greek: Θεωσις, meaning divinization (or deification, or to make divine) is the call to man to become holy and seek union with God, beginning in this life and later consummated in the resurrection. Theosis comprehends salvation from sin, is premised upon apostolic and early Christian understanding of the life of faith, and is conceptually foundational in both the East and the West.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Theosis
1. I will never be deified; there is only one God.
2. I already am made holy; holy through the blood of Christ.
3. I already at union with Christ; it happened when I was saved.
4. My salvation is complete. It can't get any more complete than what it is right now. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if I were to die right now I would go straight to heaven. All my sins are forgiven--past, present and future. There is no greater salvation than this. I wait for the resurrection of my body, and that is all. I am delivered already from every form of sin.
--Thus theosis is heresy. No wonder you believe in purgatory. It is founded on a false premise.

Your salvation has already been determined by whether you turned to Jesus, repented of your sins (here on earth) and confessed with your mouth that Jesus in Lord and that God raised Him from the dead to prove He was the Son of God."

My salvation was given to me as a free gift of God the moment I put my trust in him. It was granted to me by faith alone.

If you made that confession of faith sometime during your life here on earth you will have a new spriit (as I did) within you and desire to follow Christ to spread the Good News of salvation in Christ Jesus.

I already have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. He bears witness with my spirit that I am His child. He has already changed me so that I do desire to do His will, which does include evangelization.

For me it is my participation in Many, Many Catholic Evangelistic crusades where hundreds and sometimes thousands repent and turn to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

That is not evangelization. That is spreading the devil's message.
False Gospel you say, DHK. My bible says: Romans 3:23,Romans 6:23, Romans 10:9. Oh, and 'Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

Baptism has no part in salvation.

 

[lori4dogs]

This is the way that I deal with Catholics (and anyone else for that matter) and God has graciously allowed me to personally bring a great many to the truth of the scriptures.


The term 'christian' is almost meaningless anymore since even JW's, Mormons, and other cults all say they are christians. I don't even take for granted another baptist saying they are saved. I will always ask them their salvation testimony, and then I will ask them two final questions.
1. If you were to stand before God right now, and He were to ask you why He should let you into heaven, what would you tell God?

2. Based on that answer, what kind of a percentage do you give youself (out of 100) of God letting you in?

Based upon the answers to those three questions, I have a really good idea if I am dealing with a true Christian, or someone who needs Christ and all the loving help I can offer so they might understand and call upon the name of the Lord to be saved.

Ask me those questions (I am a Catholic Christian) and ask any number of Catholics in my community. You will find you need to concentrate your efforts on the J.W. and Mormons because most of the Catholics in my area KNOW the plan of salvation and are TRUE Christians. Most of the non-Catholics who do show up at my door have never been to a Catholic Church, don't know it is a bible church and believe it is just church where the 'true gospel' is avoided and substituted with vain, repetitious prayers with some hocus pocus thrown in.

Ask if I were to die where I would expect to spend eternity? Ask me if I were to stand in the presence of almighty why I should be allowed entrance into the heaven and not hell. Ask me if I believe that Christ blood shed on the cross was ALL sufficient to take away ALL my sins and for those of the whole world. St. John say: if any man sins, he has an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and he is the propitiation for not my sins only but for the sins of the whole world.

I truly hope you continue asking people those questions though. The answers they give and the guidance through His word, of course, have eternal consequences.:wavey:

 

[DHK]

'OK, then, define grace. What is it?
How is it obtained according to the RCC Catechism.
How is it obtained according to the Bible.'

Study the bible, study the Catechism (derived from the bible0

I found it to be in 'one accord'

I asked you these simple questions. Surely you are not going to play a cat and mouse game like some other posters I know. Because you accuse me of saying your definitions are different (and they are), when you say they aren't, I have challenged you to back up your statements or withdraw your slander. That is what it amounts to.
So answer the questions I gave you. They are simple enough.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

First I desire to go on the record as saying that I do not support of believe in many, if not most, Catholic doctrines, and would even say that concerning most DHK is right on.

With that aside Lori, trust me, it is not only the Catholics that he claims presents a works based salvation. He does precisely to others as Augustine did to Pelagius. When Pelagius denied that man needed no special ability to respond to the gospel, Augustine charged Pelagius with denying grace. Of a truth, Augustine, in all his false characterizations of his detractors, lives on through men like DHK today.

Grace, under the necessitated system of Calvinism, reduces grace to mere justice. If God is going to punish men for the natures they are born with, it is justice that demands God give men an opportunity to hear a message of grace to escape their otherwise necessitated fate, not grace. Grace is only seen as grace when God grants to men that have ‘chosen’ sin as opposed to the ability to choose love, and have did despite every ability granted to them enabling them to act in an appropriate manner. Now when God offers such rebels an opportunity to escape the JUST deserts of their actions, having been granted from first light of moral agency every necessary ability to obey if they only would have exercised those abilities, does grace take upon itself it’s true meaning.

 

[lori4dogs]

Repent AND be Baptized.

You say it is not necessary. The bible CLEARLY does! So do the vast majority of Christian Churches.