Your View On Women As Pastors

[FlyForFun]

Then I bet you get all flustered when some higher ranking "gal" orders you to drop and give her 20?

As an officer, no one "dropped" me.

As an offficer candidate, I spent 1/2 the daylight hours in the Front Leaning Rest.

:thumbs:

 

[gb93433]

No, missionaries are not pastors of churches. Paul was an apostle, not a pastor.

I know many who went to foreign countries as missionaries and planted several churches and are now pastoring at least one. What is that person called?

None of the apostles were pastors?

When does one go from missionary to pastor?

 

[go2church]

Yeah, I can see that being a problem. That wasn't what I was talking about. Christians defended, from scripture, slavery in the same way they are using scripture to keep women out of the pulpit. We look back on those that used scripture in such ways with amazement and embarrassment. I think we will do the same with women as pastors.

 

[Marcia]

Not a single person here who supports women pastors that I've seen has addressed the two scriptures I posted - no one!

12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Tim 2

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. Eph 5:23

There is no biblical support for women pastors and no one here has shown any. All I've seen is personal opinion, references to tradition or history, or red herring examples.

This is clearly not a cultural issue according to God. First Tim. 2 shows that.

The only way to discount these passages is to dismiss/ignore them or twist them to mean something they don't.

 

[FlyForFun]

Yeah, I can see that being a problem. That wasn't what I was talking about. Christians defended, from scripture, slavery in the same way they are using scripture to keep women out of the pulpit. We look back on those that used scripture in such ways with amazement and embarrassment. I think we will do the same with women as pastors.

I hope not.

I hope we never get away from an understanding that Slavery was wrong and only the life-long efforts of dedicated Christians helped abolish it.

Whenever people get back to the clear teaching of the Bible, good things happen.

:applause:

 

[go2church]

Yeah, I would agree, but lets not forget it was dedicated Christians who kept fighting other dedicated Christians to keep slavery around.

 

[Baptist4life]

Not a single person here who supports women pastors that I've seen has addressed the two scriptures I posted - no one!


There is no biblical support for women pastors and no one here has shown any. All I've seen is personal opinion, references to tradition or history, or red herring examples.

This is clearly not a cultural issue according to God. First Tim. 2 shows that.

The only way to discount these passages is to dismiss/ignore them or twist them to mean something they don't.

:thumbs:

 

[gb93433]

Yeah, I would agree, but lets not forget it was dedicated Christians who kept fighting other dedicated Christians to keep slavery around.

Let's not forget it was dedicated worldly Christians who kept fighting other dedicated Christians to keep slavery around. The worldly Christians had a financial interest in slavery.

 

[Johnv]

Not a single person here who supports women pastors that I've seen has addressed the two scriptures I posted - no one!

Let me be the first, then. I'm a bit short on time, so accept my apologies for going a bit fast here.


In regards to the passage beginning "...I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet..." I studied this very passage in Bible College, having speant several weeks writing a paper on it, and am somewhat familiar with the source text koine greek context and content. The word “to have authority” in Greek is used only in this verse. It has a context that is rather dark. It's actually referring to “instigating or perpetuating a crime”, or “wielding influence with duress”. In other Greek literature where this word is used, it's typically used in the perpetuating of sinister activity. In the NT, its meaning is not authority in general, but an undue, stolen authority.


Further is the interest in the prior passage, which is translated “let a woman learn”. Now, this is where context of the day gets crucial Jewish custom typically excluded women from learning, but Paul insisted that they should learn. Why? Ephesian women in particular were being led astray by false teachers (see 2 Timothy 3:6-7). So Paul, in grat wisdom, insisted that the women of Ephesus learn sound doctrine to guard themselves from false teaching, so they wouldn’t be deceived.


Lastly, the Greek translated “she must be silent” at the end of verse 12 is likewise the only place this word shows up in scripture. The word "silence" here doesn't mean to not talk. Rather, it's got a connotation of a state of being. There's no exact translation, but a close proximation would be ïn quietness"

If one takes the fully weighted context into this passage, Paul is saying that he does not permit women to wrongfully teach or to exercise illegitimate authority over a man, but to instead be in humble quietness. The following reference denotes how Eve, having failed to learn, and as a result, ecercise illegitimate authority over Adam.​

Now, I know I'm going to get some calls, letters, nastygrams, etc, for voicing my research there, but hey, this is a discussion board, and that's fine. We can agree to disagree as to whether the original context should be taken into account. That's fine. Also, I'm not saying this passage advocates women pastors. I'm saying it's not a proof text for disallowing women pastors, at least not in its original writing.

 

[Marcia]

In regards to the passage beginning "...I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet..." I studied this very passage in Bible College, having speant several weeks writing a paper on it, and am somewhat familiar with the source text koine greek context and content. The word “to have authority” in Greek is used only in this verse. It has a context that is rather dark. It's actually referring to “instigating or perpetuating a crime”, or “wielding influence with duress”. In other Greek literature where this word is used, it's typically used in the perpetuating of sinister activity. In the NT, its meaning is not authority in general, but an undue, stolen authority.

So Paul is really saying that women should not be instigating a crime? I don't think that's what you mean, but I think you are giving it a meaning that is not there since I do not see it in the context. I've just finished a NT2 course in seminary. The prof went over this passage and it says what it means.

Further is the interest in the prior passage, which is translated “let a woman learn”. Now, this is where context of the day gets crucial Jewish custom typically excluded women from learning, but Paul insisted that they should learn. Why? Ephesian women in particular were being led astray by false teachers (see 2 Timothy 3:6-7). So Paul, in grat wisdom, insisted that the women of Ephesus learn sound doctrine to guard themselves from false teaching, so they wouldn’t be deceived.

I agree with this.

Lastly, the Greek translated “she must be silent” at the end of verse 12 is likewise the only place this word shows up in scripture. The word "silence" here doesn't mean to not talk. Rather, it's got a connotation of a state of being. There's no exact translation, but a close proximation would be ïn quietness"

If one takes the fully weighted context into this passage, Paul is saying that he does not permit women to wrongfully teach or to exercise illegitimate authority over a man, but to instead be in humble quietness. The following reference denotes how Eve, having failed to learn, and as a result, ecercise illegitimate authority over Adam.​

But it does not say wrongfully teach; it says to teach. I think if the meaning of wrongfully teaching was there, it would be translated that way or there would be some indication of it. Moreover, the reason given for this is the order of creation (not that women were being led by false teachers).

Also, I'm not saying this passage advocates women pastors. I'm saying it's not a proof text for disallowing women pastors, at least not in its original writing

But along with Eph. 5:23 and other passages, it is supportive of the view that women should not be pastors. We don't need one proof text for this issue; we look at the whole of scripture to find how the Bible addresses it.

No one who supports women pastors has answered this question:
If a man has spiritual headship over his wife, how can a woman be a pastor over men and teach men?

 

[Johnv]

I'm sorry, Marcia, we're not allowed to have a friendly discussion unless we call each other heretics, compromisers, and apostates first. It's in the rulebook or something.

Seriously, though, I'll try to touch bases and continue the discussion Monday. Gotta run for now. Thanks for the lively and friendly discussion. It's quite welcoming.

 

[Marcia]

I'm sorry, Marcia, we're not allowed to have a friendly discussion unless we call each other heretics, compromisers, and apostates first. It's in the rulebook or something.

Actually, that's against the rules!

Seriously, though, I'll try to touch bases and continue the discussion Monday. Gotta run for now. Thanks for the lively and friendly discussion. It's quite welcoming.

Okay, thanks!

 

[EdSutton]

It's very hard for a woman to be the husband of one wife.

Yup!

"One woman man" or "husband of one wife" is still a man regardless. Anything else is eisegesis.

Yup, again!

The original 12 apostles were men, as were all of the other apostles. And there was no shortage of Godly women from which to choose. However, Christ intended for the office of pastor to be held by men. Otherwise He would have appointed at least one or two token women. And before someone says He had to appoint men because of the customs and sensibilities of the times, I would remind you that Jesus Christ was not the least bit influenced by customs and sensibilities. Following Christ’s example, it is clear to me that He did not intend women to occupy the office of pastor.

I think that there is a legitimate reason to believe Junia, who I believe was an apostle as was Andronicus (Rom. 16:7) was a woman. What is not legitimate is your crack about "one or two token women."

And Biblically, one can find no reference to "the office of pastor" anywhere in Scripture, at least in the 20 some-odd English versions I have ever checked, nor translated from the five Greek texts to which I have access.

Once again, as I have posted several times previously on the BB, the perceived problem here comes from the failure to distinguish between spiritual gifts and 'offices' in the church, the body of Christ.

Thus, I see no Biblical reason why a woman cannot have the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher (Eph. 4:11), any more than a man can have that spiritual gift, since nowhere are the spiritual gifts said to be gender specific. [FTR, I do not have that gift of pastor/teacher, although I have been given the gifts of teacher (Rom. 12:7 & I Cor. 12:28) and spiritual discernment in (I Cor. 12:10)] There are no 'qualifications' for the twenty or so spiritual gifts delineated in Scripture, aside from the sovereign will and discretion of God, the Holy Spirit, who bestows these gifts irrevocably, for the benefit of all the body. (Rom. 11:29; 12:3-6a; I Cor. 12 esp. vs. 4-6, 11-14, 18-20; 14:12; Eph. 4:7)

However, the 'office' of bishop/elder is another matter entirely. (So is the 'office' of deacon to 'cross' into another similar thread.) The 'offices' of bishop/elder and deacon is clearly limited to men. (Ac. 6:3; I Tim. 3:1-13; Tit. 1:5-9)

I can accept that the Scriptures may perhaps 'allow' an 'office' of deaconess, as well, (Rom. 16:1; I Tim. 3:11) alongside the 'office' of deacon. But it takes an unBiblical stretch to read women into the 'offices' of either 'deacon' or bishop/elder, where the language is clearly masculine in intent.

Ed

P.S. BTW, Paul speaks of himself as a 'deacon' [Eph. 3:7; Col. 1:23 (literal renderings)] but nowhere is he ever said to have the 'office' of elder or bishop. By contrast, Peter does identify himself as an elder. (I Pet. 5:1) Just some food for thought.

P.P.S. As usual, I did not vote in the poll, because of the choice of unclear alternatives and intent.

 

[Marcia]

here are many passages that indicate a woman should not be a pastor but I think 1 Tim. 2 is the most clear:

Quote:
12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
We see from this it is not a cultural issue, but is based on the order of creation: "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."

And also, the woman was deceived.

God is a God of order.

Also, from Eph 5:23:
Quote:
For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
God also teaches that a man has spiritual headship over his wife. This is another reflection of the order God set up. It has nothing to do with superiority or intelligence. It's just the order God has set up.

If a husband has spiritual headship over his wife, how can a woman, married or not, have spiritual headship over all the men in the church?

I posted the above on page 2 of this thread.

No one who supports women pastor has yet to interact with the points made above:

God gives as the reason for women to not teach or exercise authority over a man the order of creation.

If a man is spiritual head of his wife, how can a woman have spiritual headship over men in the church?

Still waiting.....

 

[tinytim]

Does the pastor have headship over the church? Or does Christ?

 

[Thermodynamics]

Well there were woman apostles Romans 16:7

Really? Where?

Romans 16:7 "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

First of all, these two people were not Apostles, they were of note among (or to) the Apostles. Second of all, Andronicus is without any doubt a male name. Junia may be a female name, but is not at all sure as it is derived from Junianus which is a male name. If this Junia was a female she would have been either the wife or sister of Andronicus. However, in any event neither Andronicus nor Junia were Apostles.

 

[gb93433]

Does the pastor have headship over the church? Or does Christ?

Christ is the head and everyone is His servant.

 

[Marcia]

Does the pastor have headship over the church? Or does Christ?

But if a husband has spiritual headship over his wife, how can a woman have any role of leading or authority over men in the church?

In fact, God says that a woman is not to have such authority. Why does God bring up Adam and Eve and say that a woman cannot have such authority because Adam was created first? How can one justify a woman pastor in light of this passage?

 

[grainofwheat]

Joel 2 : 28-29 includes women as prophets.

Luke 2 :36-38 Anna taught about Jesus from the temple.


All people of faith in Christ Jesus are His Bride so all of the "church" has the role of spiritual wife.

 

[DHK]

All people of faith in Christ Jesus are His Bride so all of the "church" has the role of spiritual wife.

Spiritualizing the text works against you. If we are all part of the "spiritual wife," in this context, then no believer--male or female--is qualified to be a pastor. We are all disqualified for we must submit to Christ, the groom. We take the role of a bride. Your allegorical interpretation negates the office of a pastor even for a man, for only Christ is the man, the groom in your scenario.