You've GOT to watch this - please

[Rufus_1611]

You follow any "trail of history" of any kind of music, and you will find some form of decadence.

What is the decadent psalm that you would cite as an example?

The horse has been beaten many times, but this refrain still stands: "Show me scriptures that specifically condemn a genre of music."

I don't submit that there is scripture that specifically condemns a genre of music. The Lord Our God has instructed us to sing spiritual songs, sounds like you choose to do and support something else. If you are spiritual you should judge all things and don't worry about me for you shouldn't let no man judge you. Although, you might find a contradiction there if you believe that you are spiritual but are singing and promoting fleshly music Either way, you're probably right that this horse has been kicked pretty good. Grace and peace to ya.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Any genre of music that feeds the flesh, i.e. causes one to dance in a sensual manner, makes one feel good about one's self, etc., is what the child of God should not participate in or condone.

The Word of God tells us to 'humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God'. Is one humbling one self by giving in to the desires of the flesh?

 

[rbell]

What is the decadent psalm that you would cite as an example?

huh?

I was responding to this quote:

When I follow the trail of the history of rap I find that it is the devil's style of music

Like I said, the "trail of history" of renaissance/baroque music can be unseemly too, but no one's condemning that genre.

I don't submit that there is scripture that specifically condemns a genre of music.

My point exactly.

The Lord Our God has instructed us to sing spiritual songs, sounds like you choose to do and support something else.

Not at all. Tonight, for instance, we'll be singing a rendition of Romans 12:1-2...it's just syncopated and includes drums, guitar, digeridoo, keyboards, and bass. But it's scripture. It honors God. You define "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" by 20th-century terms. That's not proper exegesis. They did not sing four-stanza, four-part gospel hymns in AD 55. But I'm not gonna get jazzed about that...they didn't sing Praise & Worship choruses either. :tongue3:

If you are spiritual you should judge all things and don't worry about me for you shouldn't let no man judge you.

Good enough. I don't.

Although, you might find a contradiction there if you believe that you are spiritual but are singing and promoting fleshly music

There isn't, and I'm not.

Grace and peace to ya.

God's best to you as well.

 

[rbell]

Any genre of music that feeds the flesh, i.e. causes one to dance in a sensual manner, makes one feel good about one's self, etc., is what the child of God should not participate in or condone.

"Sensual dance"-->I'll agree. No place for that in a believer's life.

"Feel good"--->OK, so I'll only listen to/sing music that makes me feel bad, gives me heartburn, causes constipation...I don't even know what to make of that statement. Music shouldn't be appealing to us? We shouldn't like it? That's almost gnostic.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

They did sing Praise songs back in the first century. Paul wrote:

Hebrews 2:11-12 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

 

[Rufus_1611]

huh?

I was responding to this quote:

Like I said, the "trail of history" of renaissance/baroque music can be unseemly too, but no one's condemning that genre.

You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbell
You follow any "trail of history" of any kind of music, and you will find some form of decadence.

I said:

What is the decadent psalm that you would cite as an example?

Since you said that "if you follow any trail of any kind of music you will find some form of decadence." I was asking, in the trail of the type of music known as psalms, what you found to be decadent?

 

[rbell]

R1611

Forgive me, I should have inserted "post-biblical" into that statement.

But who knows what tunes the ancient psalms were sung to?

Maybe 1500 BC's version of "she'll be coming 'round the mountain"...

 

[tinytim]

"Sensual dance"-->I'll agree. No place for that in a believer's life.

"Feel good"--->OK, so I'll only listen to/sing music that makes me feel bad, gives me heartburn, causes constipation...I don't even know what to make of that statement. Music shouldn't be appealing to us? We shouldn't like it? That's almost gnostic.

It is gnostic, If you look at SFIC's posts, he has a history of leaning toward gnosticism... Anything that pleases the flesh is sin according to him... because the flesh is evil...

He would have us think God does not want us to enjoy ourselves.. .no wonder God doesn't want us to listen to good music. We have to beat ourselves into subjection, the way the gnostics did.

It is a form of gnosticism, therefore it is false doctrine.

God gave us emotions, and He expects us to use them....

oOOOOO WOW!!! now I am a heretic to suggest that God wants us to enjoy Christianity, not just endure it!

 

[Eric B]

This issue, to me, is about two things and neither of which is emotion. The first is what "styles" of music does God tell us to sing?

Ephesians 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
​

I'm of the view, that which God says to do, do and that which God says don't do, don't do. He says to sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs but gives no instruction for us to sing fleshly rock and roll, hip-hop or rap.

The second issue is what is the history of the style of music that is being produced? What are its roots? When I follow the trail of the history of rap I find that it is the devil's style of music and for me, I would prefer not to have concord with this style.

Thge others answered it well, but to rephrase, those are not "styles" as I used the term, regarding rock or rap versus "traditional" or "classical'; all from a modern perspective. So you can't contrast rock and hip hop with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, as different "styles" while classical/traditional is assumed to be identical with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. In fact, the original Hebrew music was said to be very lively and rhythmic, and was definitely not some later plain Western style used in the conservative Churches waging this issue against modern styles. So the issue is not a "decadent psalm", but that the styles you now use as "traditional" can and have been used for decadence and other sins. The associations have simply been forgotten.

Originally Posted by standingfirminChrist
Any genre of music that feeds the flesh, i.e. causes one to dance in a sensual manner, makes one feel good about one's self, etc., is what the child of God should not participate in or condone.

All rap and rock doesn't make people dance in a sensual manner.
And that traditional and classical music certainly does make people feel good about themselves; especially when looking down on other peoples styles as "trash"!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Maybe someone can help me here...

I am having trouble finding a scripture verse. It has to be in the Word of God somewhere, but I can't locate it.

You know, it's the one that says bring the worldly ways into the House of God.

It has got to be in there, because so many are defending their stance on their right to do so.

Somewhere there must be a verse that contradicts the passage that says:

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

[av1611jim]

SFIC;
(sarcasm)
C'mon now brother. Don't you know that you ain't showing luuuuuv to yer brothers that way? What with quoting Scripture and all? Don'tcha know we is to be OF the world not just IN it? You know as well as I do that the youth just can't be reached with the pure unadulterated Gospel these days. We's just GOTTA give 'em what they want! What is so wrooong with that?
(end sarcasm)

 

[rbell]

Maybe someone can help me here...

I am having trouble finding a scripture verse. It has to be in the Word of God somewhere, but I can't locate it.

You know, it's the one that says bring the worldly ways into the House of God.

swinggggandamiss!

You've interpreted something to be "worldly." The Bible does not refer to it as such.

I think you're looking for 1 Corinthians 8...the passage that reminds Christians, as they exercise their freedom in Christ, to take care in not causing their weaker brother to stumble.

BTW...keep in mind, the passage you quoted: "House of God" is not referring to a church building or service, but the body of a Christian. Just giving some context...

 

[rbell]

SFIC;
(sarcasm)
C'mon now brother. Don't you know that you ain't showing luuuuuv to yer brothers that way? What with quoting Scripture and all? Don'tcha know we is to be OF the world not just IN it? You know as well as I do that the youth just can't be reached with the pure unadulterated Gospel these days. We's just GOTTA give 'em what they want! What is so wrooong with that?
(end sarcasm)

I never have gained much appreciation for those who would denigrate the ministry God has called me to--reaching students with the Gospel of Christ. I do not water it down, and I do not substitute Truth with lies. I will gladly allow you to talk to the young man who accepted Christ this weekend...or perhaps you could talk with tonight's music leader, who first witnessed to him....hey, you could talk to the forty or so teens who stayed late last week...specifically to pray for their lost friends.

But then again...why would you wish to find out God is blessing what we're doing here? It would mess up your "righteous" indignation (translation: Extra-biblical condemnations).

Though SFIC and I often disagree, and we have spirited discussions, he is respectful in his tone towards me. I do not castigate his ministry, and I find it contemptible that you would slander what God has called me to do.

 

[av1611jim]

I never have gained much appreciation for those who would denigrate the ministry God has called me to--reaching students with the Gospel of Christ. I do not water it down, and I do not substitute Truth with lies. I will gladly allow you to talk to the young man who accepted Christ this weekend...or perhaps you could talk with tonight's music leader, who first witnessed to him....hey, you could talk to the forty or so teens who stayed late last week...specifically to pray for their lost friends.

But then again...why would you wish to find out God is blessing what we're doing here? It would mess up your "righteous" indignation (translation: Extra-biblical condemnations).

Though SFIC and I often disagree, and we have spirited discussions, he is respectful in his tone towards me. I do not castigate his ministry, and I find it contemptible that you would slander what God has called me to do.

OTOH:
You could come to my church and see EXACTLY what I am talking about. No rap. No rock. No country. No blue grass. No junk. Just Scripture and 'hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs'.
And our youth group numbers about 300.

Our men's prayer meeting on saturdays is attended by several of these same kids. Many as young as 8th grade. EVERY saturday, praying not just for their lost friends, but for missionaries, our church, our pastor and other leaders in our church, the sick and elderly, their teachers (for those whose parents send them to public school, most do not), our President and leaders of our country, our soldiers (some of whom are their friends) for their own families, for discerning God's direction for their lives, our prison ministries, jail ministries, street missions, nursing home missions.....and on and on. Quarterly we have a literal ALL NIGHT prayer meeting, attended by these same kids.

You see? You don't have to cave in to the world. So get off your high horse.

 

[rbell]

OTOH:
You could come to my church and see EXACTLY what I am talking about. No rap. No rock. No country. No blue grass. No junk. Just Scripture and 'hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs'.
And our youth group numbers about 300.

Our men's prayer meeting on saturdays is attended by several of these same kids. Many as young as 8th grade. EVERY saturday, praying not just for their lost friends, but for missionaries, our church, our pastor and other leaders in our church, the sick and elderly, their teachers (for those whose parents send them to public school, most do not), our President and leaders of our country, our soldiers (some of whom are their friends) for their own families, for discerning God's direction for their lives, our prison ministries, jail ministries, street missions, nursing home missions.....and on and on. Quarterly we have a literal ALL NIGHT prayer meeting, attended by these same kids.

You see? You don't have to cave in to the world. So get off your high horse.

There is a difference between us:

• I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am serving where God wants me to serve, and I am serving Him in the way He would have me.
• You apparently have the same conviction for yourself. Great.

However...

• I genuinely rejoice that your students are seeking God, and are active agents of change and revival in your community.
• You castigate my students here as feeding on "junk" and "caving in to the world." You do not rejoice in how God is working here.

I appreciate your posting what you did. I look forward to people observing the differences in our attitudes. I rejoice that God is being lifted up in the lives of your students, and mine...and you condemn our students for seeking God in a way other than you prescribe. Many folks will learn a great deal from this exchange.

Friend, I have no "high horse" from which to dismount. I find it sad that a difference in musical taste would cause you to attack my ministry and my students.

May God continue to bless your teenagers.

 

[av1611jim]

The Pharisees were saddened when Jesus spoke the truth to them also.
So were many Gentiles when they encountered Paul.

The truth hurts sometimes.

BTW; thanks for the good wishes.

I really hope your kids will mature in the grace and knowledge of our Saviour.

But I also hope they will not become ineffective and irrelevant by your compromise with the worlds ways.

The world is watching to see if what your kids have is REALLY any different than what the world has.


(Man! this new laptops keyboard is funky. I miss the space bar too much and mywordsallruntogether!!!)

 

[Eric B]

If the truth hurts sometimes, does it ever hurt your side? Or is your side so automatically in tune with God, that the "worldly" traditional and classical style music is not "worldly" but becomes the definition of psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. THAT is what the harisees thought.
It is so amazing that you and others try to throw this charge back onto the people you are condemning, but if you compare the situations, you are the ones, like them, who is defending an "old order", which you see as without sin. The whole point is that they were ust as sinful as anyone else. This is why God removed them as His authorities, and introduced the Gospel. That is why the truth hurt them, not because they were the ones doing something new, with new always being wrong.

The most frustrating thing with ou two is that you never address these points. You just come back with sarcasm talking about our relationship to "the world", but none of you have ever shown that the modern styles are specifically the world, and your traditional styles are not--or even that your traditional styles were what was used for worship in the Bible. You only go back and forth between projecting them in there as "psalms, hymns, spiritual songs", (but those are not 18th/19th century Western Classical styles you associate them with), and then to the "if the rhythm makes you sin" argument when all else fails.

 

[gekko]

i think it was av1611 that said this: "You are wrong, I am right."

i'll let you people decide where that leads.
---

The second issue is what is the history of the style of music that is being produced? What are its roots? When I follow the trail of the history of rap I find that it is the devil's style of music and for me, I would prefer not to have concord with this style.

maybe hip-hop does have devilish roots... so does your american country. deal with that brother. you gonna move now? thinkin ya'll up and righteous?

at least i know i aint - not w/o Christ Jesus.
---

av1611... you havn't done a BIT of research on this group HAVE you. i could tell by your sarcasm ealier... you know that bit - "OF the world not just IN" deal?

well then... i'll leave you to some research about the group... read their biographies - ask 'em questions.

oh. and find out what their song titled "In not Of" really means.
get back later when you find out ah?
---

sensual dancing... reminds me of the mennonite school i used to go to... "vertical dancing leads to horizontal dancing"

... bro' - if that music gets you movin n' groovin like they do up in the clubs - you still got a problem w/ that flesh nature of yours.

i'll be prayin for ya.
---

just to point out... that the music back in Jesus' time and king David's time... was much more upbeat and lively and more apt to dance to then today's hymns.

oh didn't you know that? or you that conservative that you didn't do your research again?

brothers do some research. i'm still doin mine - let me know what you find. eh?
---

And our youth group numbers about 300.

boasting... and about numbers... wow. how... shall i say - unbiblical?
how many of those are true believers? how many of those are born-again? how many are sheep? how many are goats? how many are goin to be w/ the Lord? how many are goin to hell?

right - i'm sorry. i know we dont know if they christian or not. do their fruits show? its an honest question.
---

How can we tell a lost world that Christ will make a difference in their lives if they SEE no difference in ours?

how do you know that there's no difference in hip-hoppers that lyricize for Christ?

or are you just that all-knowing?
---

The man himself said he chose to conform to the image of the rappers in order to reach them.
He also essentially ridiculed they who wore suits.
He flat out stated that he had to conform to the 'street' to reach youth.

by what you said there.... i know you didn't pay a jack of attention to the vid.

watch it again - carefully - and quote it properly. please.

he didn't ridicule those who wore suits
he never used the word "conform" lol. try again.

he is using hip-hop to reach those that have grown up w/ that culture - and would not change to any other culture. THAT is what he said.

i advise you to watch again and quote properly - otherwise dont post here.
---

i never grew up in any hip-hop culture whatsoever.
and yet the holy Spirit is still workin through me.

can you believe that?
or you gonna question "are you sure that's the Holy Spirit speaking?"

i know without a shadow of a doubt that it is the Holy Spirit brother.
---

God bless.

(crossmovementrecords.com i believe it is)

 

[tinytim]

It would do some here good to go on a cross cultural mission trip. Then they would realize that Western Christianity is not the only Christian culture in the world....

How about a trip south of the Border, say to Bolivia where the Baptists dance to God in the service.

I thank God for the diversity of worship He has created in humans.
But as long as some think they are right and all others are wrong, they will be too prideful to fully appreciate God's creation.

 

[rbell]

The sad part is...I think folks like av1611jim will actually be disappointed when the kids I reach with my "compromising, worldly, etc." ministry stay the course and continue to live for Christ. I meant what I said regarding his kids. I'm glad they're a lighthouse for a lost world. It pains me to know that he thinks less of the kids in my church that are living for Christ. Oh well...the purpose of their existence is not to make him happy anyway. I'm glad many of mine are striving to be Godpleasers. And I'm working on the rest...

There are some folks in this world that derive pleasure in condemnation...even when there is no Divine mandate for such.