ad finitum
Active Member
Did Jesus give Abraham his faith? Seems like a strange importation of an idea that really isn't there.
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Zeal for correcting a brother greater than for winning a soul?
- Thread starter George Antonios
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Yes
Jesus is God. Eternal being, one with God the Father and God the Spirit.
There are many theophanies of Jesus recorded in the Bible including an interaction with Abraham. Moreso, Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees that "before Abraham was, I am." So the answer is an absolutely yes to your question.
ad finitum
Active Member
Are there Old Testament scriptures that indicate that Jesus gave Abraham (or any other person) his faith?
In your theology, is Jesus eternal God?
When the Bible says Jesus is the author and perfecter of faith do you only imagine it was after he was incarnated as a human being? What are you struggling with in regard to his divinity?
ad finitum
Active Member
How does it work in this passage?:
Mark 9:14-19
In verse 19, Jesus seems to register a complaint that it is a faithless generation. This begs the question of why did Jesus didn't give the generation any faith. Can he complain about a faithlessness generation to whom he as not gifted faith in the first place?
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ad finitum
Active Member
I wondered because before there was a New Testament, how did the Old Testament heroes of faith know that the faith they were expressing was given to them because they were incapable, allegedly, of expressing their own faith?
For otherwise, the likes of Noah, Job and Daniel would seem to have remained ignorant of where their faith had come from. And being ignorant of that alleged fact, fail to give thanks for the life-saving gift.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
The New Covenant relationship works differently from the OC and exposes much more detail about the relationship of God and men.
All people receive their faith from God when He calls them and speaks to them, (LIKE SAUL becoming PAUL), such as this
Genesis 12
New King James Version
Promises to Abram
1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him
Noah found favor with God but it was not because of Noah's goodness, it was because God had preordained for Noah His purposes, so God preserved Noah, and he was perfect in his generation(s), plural. So his line was kept pure to God as a remnant by His grace.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
The problem with naturally minded people is they insist God respects man's goodness and justness, like there is such a thing apart from God's grace toward a man...they do not understand that whom He calls, HE JUSTIFIES. Romans 8:30...
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
All people receive their faith from God when He calls them and speaks to them, (LIKE SAUL becoming PAUL), such as this
Genesis 12
New King James Version
Promises to Abram
1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him
Noah found favor with God but it was not because of Noah's goodness, it was because God had preordained for Noah His purposes, so God preserved Noah, and he was perfect in his generation(s), plural. So his line was kept pure to God as a remnant by His grace.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
The problem with naturally minded people is they insist God respects man's goodness and justness, like there is such a thing apart from God's grace toward a man...they do not understand that whom He calls, HE JUSTIFIES. Romans 8:30...
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Is Jesus obligated to give the gift of faith to any human?
As Sovereign God, God chooses whomever He wills. Since it would be just to send all sinners to hell, it is an amazingly gracious choice if God chooses only one person to redeem and give faith, let alone many person's.
Certainly God can be angry with rebellious sinners who are faithless.
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Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
More examples showing that when people hear Him speak, they believe in Him, now the reason they do hear Him and believe, is they are 'OF GOD', such as those he has called, those born again by the Spirit.
John 8
28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
And here for more info on this. Note v42 and v47
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
So Jesus teaches us that there are no neutral parties here, if your not with Him your against Him, if you don't gather with Him, you scatter like a wolf scatters the sheep.
And either your of the devil or your of GOD.
John 8
28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
And here for more info on this. Note v42 and v47
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
So Jesus teaches us that there are no neutral parties here, if your not with Him your against Him, if you don't gather with Him, you scatter like a wolf scatters the sheep.
And either your of the devil or your of GOD.
Tsalagi
Member
No, sorry. You are twisting the plain meaning of Scripture to fit the theology you want to believe. Hebrews 12:2 does not say Jesus "authors" faith and then gives it to us. It says He is the leading example of faith that we should follow. This is made clear in the context, and affirmed by the use of the same word in Hebrews 2:15. Archegos cannot mean what you claim there, or the Bible would be contradicting itself about the source of our salvation which is manifestly God the Father, not Jesus. Before you try to "help me" you'd better deal with the lumber inventory in your ocular orifice, my friend. The one wresting the Scriptures unto his own destruction here is you.
You have not got the first clue about John chapter 10 or John chapter 6, because you have completely failed to read and understand John chapter 5. Revelation 22:17 stands firm, and those who dismiss it with a lofty wave of the hand simply do not love the truth.
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Tsalagi
Member
What an utterly blasphemous point of view. A man giving a party on his yacht sees ten inebriated people fall overboard. He has ten life preservers available, but he only throws two in the water and lets the other eight people drown as a result. No sane person on earth is going to say, "Gee, what a gracious guy to save two of those drunks from drowning, since they all had it coming." God puts a conscience in all men that knows better than this.
Such a notion is a gross denigration of the grace and love of God, it is found NOWHERE in Scripture, and I wouldn't want to be standing anywhere near someone at the judgment who espouses this twisted and debauched view of the Lord. Salvation is made available to all, therefore all are accountable for receiving or rejecting God's grace in Christ, and those who reject it have only themselves to blame for their eternal condemnation since it is their fault, not God's.
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Tsalagi
Member
"Far better scholars" wrote the authoritative lexicons that tell us that Tyndale back in 1526 did not have a good grasp of what archegos means; we have a much better understanding of biblical Greek now than he did 500 years ago.
Accurately understanding the text is hardly a "grammatical loophole"; rather, blindly clinging to an inferior translation from five centuries ago prevents understanding what God is actually saying in His Word.
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I suggest that every English translation reveals you are wrong.
Hebrews 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
New International Version
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
New Living Translation
We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith. Because of the joy awaiting him, he endured the cross, disregarding its shame. Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God’s throne.
English Standard Version
looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Berean Study Bible
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Berean Literal Bible
looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who in view of the joy lying before Him endured the cross, having despised its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
King James Bible
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
New King James Version
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
New American Standard Bible
looking only at Jesus, the originator and perfecter of the faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NASB 1995
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NASB 1977
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Amplified Bible
[looking away from all that will distract us and] focusing our eyes on Jesus, who is the Author and Perfecter of faith [the first incentive for our belief and the One who brings our faith to maturity], who for the joy [of accomplishing the goal] set before Him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God [revealing His deity, His authority, and the completion of His work].
Christian Standard Bible
keeping our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. For the joy that lay before him, he endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
keeping our eyes on Jesus, the source and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that lay before Him endured a cross and despised the shame and has sat down at the right hand of God's throne.
American Standard Version
looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God.
English Revised Version
looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Good News Translation
Let us keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from beginning to end. He did not give up because of the cross! On the contrary, because of the joy that was waiting for him, he thought nothing of the disgrace of dying on the cross, and he is now seated at the right side of God's throne.
GOD'S WORD[emoji2400] Translation
We must focus on Jesus, the source and goal of our faith. He saw the joy ahead of him, so he endured death on the cross and ignored the disgrace it brought him. Then he received the highest position in heaven, the one next to the throne of God.
International Standard Version
fixing our attention on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of the faith, who, in view of the joy set before him, endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Literal Standard Version
looking to the Author and Perfecter of the faith—Jesus, who, for the joy set before Him, endured a cross, having despised shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God;
NET Bible
keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. For the joy set out for him he endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God.
New Heart English Bible
looking to Jesus, the founder and completer of the faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
World English Bible
looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Young's Literal Translation
looking to the author and perfecter of faith -- Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him -- did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down;
The text is clear. It is odd that you are working hard to force it to say something else.
The blasphemy is you creating an analogy based on your opinion of what you think God should be and how he should act. Your comment above shows us how you have created a god in your own image and have placed that god up as the image you choose to worship. You have fallen to the sin of Jeroboam.
Romans 3:21-28
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
God is not unloving if he chooses not to rescue rebellious man from man's just retribution for his lawbreaking. Recognize that those inebriated people that rebelled against the King willfully broke the King's law and set themselves up as the ruler instead of the King. Their sentence for such treason is death. The King is under no obligation to throw them a lifeline. If the King chooses to do so, it is an amazing act of grace. It is not an evil act of the King to watch treasonous person's die for their sins.
Tsalagi, you have a corrupted concept of love and a false view of your own wretchedness. You actually think humans harbor a goodness that makes God obligated to save them and if He doesn't then God is evil, not man. It is you who has twisted the gospel into a blasphemous teaching that removes God from being holy and is instead an image you have made which you call god. You have followed the path of Jeroboam. That should make you shudder.
Tsalagi
Member
"Pioneer," "founder," and "Jesus on whom our faith depends" are good translations which support my point. Not one of these translations indicates that Jesus hands people their saving faith as you claim. That notion imports an unscriptural concept into a text and a context that isn't even talking about the point of salvation, but about walking by faith after salvation. That's why Hebrews 12:2 immediately follows the roster of Old Testament examples who lived by faith in chapter 11, and why it points to Jesus' own example of endurance in suffering.
Tsalagi
Member
Rubbish. Ascribing gross injustice to God in direct conflict with Scripture is blasphemy. God does not condemn, judge, and eternally torture people for sin and rebellion when they have absolutely no ability to do otherwise. Even the Philistines did not punish those who were not mentally responsible, but you choose to believe God is less just than they were. That's ridiculous, and thankfully it is not true.
It is totally evil to punish someone when they have absolutely no power to choose or to do otherwise. Claiming God does so is manifestly unscriptural and delusional.
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All the translations say that Jesus is the cause agent of faith. In other words, humans don't cause their own faith. Stop promoting works based faith.
Tsalagi, you have a false opinion of your own sin. You think it taint so bad. But, you are utterly wretched and a natural, treasonous rebel against God, the King. Please let that sink in. You deserve eternal hell and damnation. You don't deserve a lifeline.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (Ephesians 2:4-5)
See that, God chose mercy and grace for you. He doesn't do that for the entire human race. He does that for the sheep God the Father has given him.
Yet, YOU, call God horrible and evil and unjust for not saving everyone. The blasphemy is coming from you, the one who follows the way of Jeroboam. I lovingly call you to repentance.
Romans 9:19-24
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Tsalagi
Member
The ability to express faith is just as universal as the ability to think. The merit of faith is in its object, not in its exercise.
The Bible says faith is not works; you are the only one claiming otherwise.
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