Zionism Undermines our Gospel

[asterisktom]

You misunderstand. By the Mirriam-Webster definition, genocide does not mean killing every single person of a people group, but the attempted murder of all

Well, of course not. I did not say there was no time in history genocide happened, nor did Mirriam-Webster. The Germans tried to destroy all Jews in WW2 times, and killed 6 million. As for the IDF, my point was not very well put if you think I meant the killing of every single Palestinian. Note that: (1) At this point, the population of Gaza is about 2.1 million. (2) According to the data, there have been about 73,470 killed out of a population of 2.1 million (https://gisha.org/en/publication_type/gaza-now-current-facts-and-figures/). BBC News (a neutral source) says that about 23,600 of those are Hamas fighters (citing Israeli sources, Israeli media cite official accepting Hamas figure of 70,000 war dead). So, out of 2,100,000 total population (many still Hamas fighters), 49,870 civilians have died. That means only 2.4 per cent of the civilian population of Gaza have died.

So, you have been deceived. There is no genocide. 2.4% of a population, with the fighting stopped, is not genocide in any way, shape or form. Even liberal Democrats are not using that term any more, as I have shown. So you are to the left of the most leftist politicians.



Sorry, I can't ignore the fact that you are using the most inadequate source on the planet: Wikipedia. I consider it completely untrustworthy. Most academics do not allow Wikipedia, and the schools where I teach do not allow it as a source in any endeavor. I once looked up a Greek NT ms on it, and there were two different notes about the content of the ms. That is because any amateur can correct any professional on it.

And no, the Genocide Convention has no legitimacy whatsoever. It has an antisemite agenda. And as for including "intent" in the crime of genocide, that's ridiculous. If I go into a store with the "intent" to shoplift, but think better of it and leave the store, have I shoplifted? No, of course not. "Intent" makes the accuser out to be a mind reader, and that is impossible. No one can tell "intent" accurately. It is exactly what the "thought police" of the novel 1984 were supposed to control.

You speak of BBC News (the ones who, for instance, announced the collapse of WT7 before it even happened) as a "neutral source" and then tell me one I am the one who is deceived.

Neither do I "misunderstand" the MW definition. I am just saying it is not complete. At any rate, if it helps the discussion, forget the term. Focus on the actual actions.
Do you deny the IDF actively shooting young children?
Setting up food centers and then shooting many who run out for the food?

There is actually proof and news coverage of this. Well, maybe not in your "100s of news programs".

More needs to be said but I would like answers to this.

 

[asterisktom]

And then, of course, there is the link on the same page touting the myth of the "Gaza Genoc!de" (sic).

A little background on my supposed typo that you pettily pointed out: You are referring to an article that I wrote about a fellow-Preterist who, when it comes to modern Israel, pretty much has the same mindset that you do. Because that article appeared in several other places - and I had already been locked out of some from even using the word genocide in this context - I altered the spelling. I did this sometimes also with the "Zion!sm". I had used the same type of circumlocutions I had to use in China when I shared my faith in my classes. Such are the times we now live in.

 

[asterisktom]

Palestine was never a sovereign nation, but just a geographical region occupied by the Philistines on the coast where the Gaza strip is now. That region also went further inland where Israelites and Canaanites lived in the hills and northern area. The name Palestine is what the Greeks called the area. Nobody was called a Palestinian until the late 19th century.

OK. Forget the idea of "a nation". Were/are the Palestinians "a people"? I hope you agree with that.

 

[Foxmeister]

OK. Forget the idea of "a nation". Were/are the Palestinians "a people"? I hope you agree with that.

Can you agree that they are called Palestinians only because they come from a regional area named Palestine by ancient Greeks and that they are an Arab national and ethnic group-not a race?

 

[asterisktom]

Can you agree that they are called Palestinians only because they come from a regional area named Palestine by ancient Greeks and that they are an Arab national and ethnic group-not a race?

Of course. Can we move on from this to deciding whether or not they are our neighbors?

 

[percho]

I'm wondering why this is in the Baptist Theology & Bible Study" forum. No Scripture or theology was given. And note that aterisktom himself is the author. (Is he putting forth anti-Zionism as theology?) And in the article itself, only the story of the Good Samaritan is mentioned, which has literally no connection whatsoever to Zionism.

Question - 's

Is Zionism of present Israel a biblical concept or is Zionism a biblical concept that is established through Christ at his 2nd appearing?

Consider John 10:16 YLT and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.

Flock? Is that a kingdom / rule / govern concept?

Is not the following the biblical Zionism which comes about through Christ on the throne of his father, David?

Isa 66:8 KJV Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Joel 3:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Compare that verse to the following Acts 15:16,17
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd Ezek 34:22,23 Also Ezek 37:22-24

Is the Zionism of Israel today the biblical Zionism?

 

[Jerome]

"...Genoc!de" (sic).

....that you pettily pointed out

Pettily? Oh brother.
No, it was quite appropriate to use sic there.

 

[asterisktom]

Pettily? Oh brother.
No, it was quite appropriate to use sic there.

Good to know.

 

[Foxmeister]

Of course. Can we move on from this to deciding whether or not they are our neighbors?

I wouldn't call them our neighbors.

 

[Van]

Saved/delivered/rescued from what, Van?

Who is the audience, Van?

Does the Devil have the power to snatch at will anyone away from God?

How do you imagine the Devil was manifested in this temporal realm to ‘that generation’?

Yet another deflection post. Saved from what? How about the wrath of God!

The audience is anyone who hears or reads the parable.

Once saved, always saved.

But as a teachable corollary, of the Parable of the Sower, can we not say that when we accept false doctrine as true, we harden our own heart and impede acceptance of actual truth?

 

[Van]

When we engage in the study of a parable, we typically we find a point of comparison between something we understand in our physical world, and something being illuminated in the spiritual world. However, the illumination often highlights more than one aspect of the spiritual truth.

In the Parable of the Sower, our understanding of sowing seed with various results, is used to illuminate the reasons why our sowing of the gospel "seed," has various results. But many follow-on lessons can be learned. Try to be good stewards, and use our time effectively, both to nurture those still open to God's opportunity for salvation, and to seek responsive soil, rather than spend more time than necessary on fallow ground.

 

[Van]

Well of course I did. If what happens in Palestine, the killing and emptying, is not genocide I like to know what is. Get out your dictionary.

The enemies of Christ use the tools of Satan.

From the Internet:​

" While many leftists push for socialism, globalism and so-called equity, Islamists pursue religious supremacy and sharia law. Their end goals may differ, but their common adversary—Western capitalism, individualism and the Judeo-Christian foundations of the West—keeps them aligned." ​

On the Western Judeo-Christian side we have advocates for truth, justice and mercy. On the other side, we have mass-murders, such as Mr. Stalin, or Mr. Osama Bin Laden. So what do they do? They charge those who they are killing with their behavior, such as genocide.

 

[John of Japan]

You speak of BBC News (the ones who, for instance, announced the collapse of WT7 before it even happened) as a "neutral source" and then tell me one I am the one who is deceived.

What does WT7 have to do with anything? If you are talking about World Trade Center 7, it did collapse, but how does that nullify everything reported by BBC???

Neither do I "misunderstand" the MW definition. I am just saying it is not complete. At any rate, if it helps the discussion, forget the term. Focus on the actual actions.

So, to be clear, you are of the firm belief that "intent" can indicate genocide, correct? I find that reprehensible, if that is your position. Intent involves the thought life, so then by that definition of genocide, we can now extrapolate what someone is thinking, and know they want genocide.

,Do you deny the IDF actively shooting young children?

I just looked through this whole thread, and found no place at all where you mention kids being shot. So how is anyone supposed to know what you mean or are referring to? When did it happen? And what is your source. If it is Gaza itself, I reject that as fake news. All of Gaza, including all news sources, are controlled by Hamas, and those terrorists were elected by Gazan people as their government.

Setting up food centers and then shooting many who run out for the food?

Sourcer?

There is actually proof and news coverage of this. Well, maybe not in your "100s of news programs".

Okay, trot out your source. You haven't yet for anything you are "reporting."

More needs to be said but I would like answers to this.

I'd like the facts before I give any answers. I don't see you simply saying so as a valid source. In fact, there is no one on the BB, including myself, whose simple word about a news item I would take without verification.

 

[asterisktom]

The enemies of Christ use the tools of Satan.

From the Internet:​

" While many leftists push for socialism, globalism and so-called equity, Islamists pursue religious supremacy and sharia law. Their end goals may differ, but their common adversary—Western capitalism, individualism and the Judeo-Christian foundations of the West—keeps them aligned." ​

On the Western Judeo-Christian side we have advocates for truth, justice and mercy. On the other side, we have mass-murders, such as Mr. Stalin, or Mr. Osama Bin Laden. So what do they do? They charge those who they are killing with their behavior, such as genocide.

Judeo-Christian? Those two are non-compatible. One side denies Christ, the other loves Christ. As far as their view of Christ is concerned, Muslims have a higher view of Him, by far, than the modern Jews that you seem bent on defending.

 

[John of Japan]

Question - 's

Is Zionism of present Israel a biblical concept or is Zionism a biblical concept that is established through Christ at his 2nd appearing?

As far as they wanted to return to Israel as a people group, it was entirely biblical. The OT is full of that sort of thing: a return from Babylon that was prophesied by Jeremiah and embraced by Daniel, etc. And yes, I am a dispensationalist, if that matters.

Zionism was an historical movement that sought a permanent home in their traditional land for the Jews who were scattered in the dispersion. Considering the fact that 6 million of them were killed by the Germans, I don't blame the Zionists in the slightest for wanting their own home. And in spite of the Balfour Declaration, the government opposed that, and would not let Jewish ships land with refugees during the British administration that lasted until 1948. That was shameful.

Consider John 10:16 YLT and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.

Flock? Is that a kingdom / rule / govern concept?

Nope. It's a missiological statement.

Is not the following the biblical Zionism which comes about through Christ on the throne of his father, David?

Isa 66:8 KJV Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Joel 3:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Compare that verse to the following Acts 15:16,17
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd Ezek 34:22,23 Also Ezek 37:22-24

Sounds great! Praise the Lord. "Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

Is the Zionism of Israel today the biblical Zionism?

I don't call the 1948 return of Israel to their land to be the return of all the Jews prophesied in connection with the 2nd Coming of Christ. They are still in Israel without their Messiah, having rejected Him. I do believe that, lost as they are spiritually, they deserve to have their own country where there are no pogroms or holocausts.

 

[JonC]

And Chicken Little cried, "Oh, no, the IDF killed 2.4% of the civilian population of Gaza. That's genocide!!"

No, that is the normal fog of war. Unfortunately, all wars without exception kill civilians. If the IDF is attempting genocide, they are extremely poor at it. Germany had 5.5 million civilians killed in WW2 (Not counting the 6 million Jewish civilians they themselves killed in genocide), and the Allies were not trying to kill civilians. (Unfortunately the Allies did try to kill Japanese civilians in WW2 with the Tokyo fire bombing and the A-Bombs).

To be fair, in WW2 allies intentionally targeted civilian populations as a part of their military strategy.

With Gaza the Palestinian military compounded the issue by building its military within the civilian population and civilian structures. Add to that the absence of military identification for military personnel (a violation of international law).

So we had the Palestinian military looking like civilians and firing on Israeli civilian structures/ people from strategic positions within civilian buildings (homes, schools, hospitals), using a civilian hospital as a military headquarter. And people wonder why so many civilians were killed in Gaza?

Israel was not to blame for that.

 

[John of Japan]

To be fair, in WW2 allies intentionally targeted civilian populations as a part of their military strategy.

With Gaza the Palestinian military compounded the issue by building its military within the civilian population and civilian structures. Add to that the absence of military identification for military personnel (a violation of international law).

So we had the Palestinian military looking like civilians and firing on Israeli civilian structures/ people from strategic positions within civilian buildings (homes, schools, hospitals), using a civilian hospital as a military headquarter. And people wonder why so many civilians were killed in Gaza?

Israel was not to blame for that.

I agree with everything you said here.

 

[asterisktom]

What does WT7 have to do with anything? If you are talking about World Trade Center 7, it did collapse, but how does that nullify everything reported by BBC???

So, to be clear, you are of the firm belief that "intent" can indicate genocide, correct? I find that reprehensible, if that is your position. Intent involves the thought life, so then by that definition of genocide, we can now extrapolate what someone is thinking, and know they want genocide.

I just looked through this whole thread, and found no place at all where you mention kids being shot. So how is anyone supposed to know what you mean or are referring to? When did it happen? And what is your source. If it is Gaza itself, I reject that as fake news. All of Gaza, including all news sources, are controlled by Hamas, and those terrorists were elected by Gazan people as their government.

Sourcer?

Okay, trot out your source. You haven't yet for anything you are "reporting."

I'd like the facts before I give any answers. I don't see you simply saying so as a valid source. In fact, there is no one on the BB, including myself, whose simple word about a news item I would take without verification.

I am not going to trot out sources if you are too afraid to go beyond your tight circle of "100 sources" that apparently are all on the same page. It is incredible that you do not know that BBC announced the collapse of World Trade Center 7 about twenty minutes before it happened. The live-feedscreen behind the newscaster showed the building still standing. Look it up. I'm not going to do your work for you.

 

[John of Japan]

I am not going to trot out sources if you are too afraid to go beyond your tight circle of "100 sources" that apparently are all on the same page. It is incredible that you do not know that BBC announced the collapse of World Trade Center 7 about twenty minutes before it happened. The live-feedscreen behind the newscaster showed the building still standing. Look it up. I'm not going to do your work for you.

The point was, I don't care!! That BBC goof has absolutely nothing whatsoever, nothing in the slightest to do with this BB discussion! I suspect you brought it up to obfuscate, because there is so much you have not answered. Such as, please comment on the Democrat congress people who backed off from calling the Israeli actions in Gaza a genocide. You have totally ignored that and other sourced points I have made.

 

[JonC]

What does WT7 have to do with anything? If you are talking about World Trade Center 7, it did collapse, but how does that nullify everything reported by BBC???

So, to be clear, you are of the firm belief that "intent" can indicate genocide, correct? I find that reprehensible, if that is your position. Intent involves the thought life, so then by that definition of genocide, we can now extrapolate what someone is thinking, and know they want genocide.

I just looked through this whole thread, and found no place at all where you mention kids being shot. So how is anyone supposed to know what you mean or are referring to? When did it happen? And what is your source. If it is Gaza itself, I reject that as fake news. All of Gaza, including all news sources, are controlled by Hamas, and those terrorists were elected by Gazan people as their government.

Sourcer?

Okay, trot out your source. You haven't yet for anything you are "reporting."

I'd like the facts before I give any answers. I don't see you simply saying so as a valid source. In fact, there is no one on the BB, including myself, whose simple word about a news item I would take without verification.

I think what @asterisktom is referring to is the BBB reporter reporting that the building had collapsed when the report was actually that a collapse was imminent.

WTC2 had collapsed and due to the damage snd people duspected WTC1 was to collapse. The BBC made a mistake but it was repeated on other outlets. Media often makes such mistakes in early reporting.

I also do not know what this has to do with the topic.