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Zwingli was also a murderer

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Nazaroo

New Member
Quite right Trevor.

The fact that Manz had done nothing wrong and was doctrinally in a quite respectable position makes his murder all the more deplorable.

Manz died the true martyr, and Zwingli seems to have died unfortunately without any supernatural protection, because he was in a confused spiritual state.

By the way, although Anglicans allow infant baptism, I don't think it is meaningful, in comparison to adult baptism.

The NT doesn't teach a special age for baptism, but common sense would dictate that one should first be instructed, (which implies a certain understanding and maturity) before being baptized.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sorry to disappoint you, Naz, but I didn't phone the hookers (for either purpose), and I'm still alive, so I'm afraid that's your theology completely blown out of the water.
 

WestminsterMan

New Member
snip...

Thus Bible baptism is the response of true faith, and it is not “works”. It cannot be imposed on others as is done with infant sprinkling and some immersions. Romans 6 and Galatians 2:20 show that the sacrifice of Christ was representative, not substitutionary and baptism is the means of identification and thereafter living the crucified and motivated life through faith. Acts 8:5,12 show also that a correct understanding and belief in the things concerning the Name of Jesus and the Kingdom of God is part of the one faith.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hmmm...

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).

In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that "She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that "the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16).

In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that "he and his wife were baptized," but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture.

The last time I checked, families of the period would have had infants and young children.

WM
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Hmmm...

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).
First, did Peter really mean that being baptized would bring about the forgiveness of sins? As one bible dictionary has it:
"For" (as used in #Ac 2:38 "for the forgiveness...") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery," "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one.
Second, Peter tells his hearers to repent. Babies cannot do that.

Then, the word used for "children" in Acts 2.39 is the one that means "offspring". Although of course those offspring are babies at one stage in their lives, they remain offspring even as teenagers and adults.

Lastly, what promise was Peter referring to? Surely the one he has just quoted, that those who repent would receive the Holy Spirit.
In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that "She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that "the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16).

In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that "he and his wife were baptized," but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture.

The last time I checked, families of the period would have had infants and young children. WM
However, in the case of the Philippian gaoler, the context shows that the whole household had the gospel preached to them, and the whole household believed, apart from the whole household being baptized. Acts 16.32-34:
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
Even if you assume that translations such as the ESV are correct in verse 34 when they say something such as, "And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God," you still have a problem. Little babies can be happy, certainly, but I have never seen a baby with the ability to rejoice on account of someone else believing the gospel. In fact, I wonder why anybody of whatever age who doesn't believe the gospel themselves would rejoice when someone does.

In the cases of Lydia and Stephanas, we have no information about the ages of the people in the households, but it is surely wrong to argue from silence, when we have verses which clearly show that belief is a prerequisite of baptism. When the Ethiopian eunuch asked Philip, "What hinders me from being baptized?" Philip's reply in Acts 8.37 was:

"If you believe with all your heart, you may."
In Acts 8.12, we read concerning some Samaritans:
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
In Acts 2.41, it was those who gladly received the gospel who were baptized.

I would be interested to know where you checked and found that every "family of the period would have had infants and young children." I know you made no mention of "every", but if every family didn't include infants and young children, your argument would seem to fail. Indeed we are not even told whether Lydia or Stehanas were married; their households could have consisted of them and their servants.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The word order in Acts 16:34 (I believe you covered that in quoting the ESV), in which case it depends on how you read the word 'rejoice' (did not John the Baptist leap for joy in his mother's womb?).
 

Nazaroo

New Member
The word order in Acts 16:34 (I believe you covered that in quoting the ESV), in which case it depends on how you read the word 'rejoice' (did not John the Baptist leap for joy in his mother's womb?).

ROFL!

Nice one!

So if the baby kicks mom,
is it okay to baptize both while its still in the womb?
Looks good to go...

Perhaps there should be a special extra test:

"Okay baby, kick three times on the ovum if you're pro-Trinity...
Twice on the pipes if the answer is no."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Jvsbcxunc
 

TrevorL

Member
The following is a brief account of the formation of the “Bruder in Christo”, Brethren in Christ, taken from the book “The Protesters” by Alan Eyre 1975.
“In January 1525 the Zurich council issued decrees forbidding the opponents of infant sprinkling to preach or even to meet together, banishing non-citizens attached to the group and renewing the order for all parents to christen all children or go into exile within eight days.”
“The decision of the Zurich Council on January 21, 1525, forbidding all those in favour of adult baptism to meet together was the spark that kindled a fire which was to burn in fervent hearts across half a continent.
On the evening of this fateful winter Saturday, about twenty men gathered in the house of Felix Manz in Zurich. Let a contemporary account speak of what followed:

“As they were together, anxiety came on them and pressed upon their hearts. So they began to bend their knees before Almighty God in heaven …; they prayed that He would reveal His mercy to them. For flesh and blood and human forwardness did not drive them, since they well knew what they would have to bear and suffer on account of it. After the prayer George Cajakob (Blaurock) … entreated that Conrad Grebel should baptize him with the true Christian baptism upon his faith and knowledge. After this had taken place, the others likewise desired of George that he should baptize them, which also he did upon their request. And so they together dedicated themselves in the high fear of God to the Name of the Lord. Each confirmed the other in the service of the gospel and began to teach and hold the faith.”

They linked themselves into a brotherhood of faith: Bruder in Christo, Brethren in Christ. It was sealed by a solemn but intimate “breaking of bread”, either the same evening or the next day, Sunday.
Of these Cajakob, Manz, Eberli, Hutzer and Brotli were all to be burned, drowned or beheaded within five years of this Zurich meeting, in places hundreds of miles apart.”
Alan Eyre also speaks of the first convert after this meeting.
“On Sunday, the day following the gathering at Manz’s home, Johannes Brotli talked long and seriously with his landlord, and finally they walked together towards the city. On reaching Hirslanden, Schumacher said to Brotli: “All right then, Hans, you have shown me the truth. I thank you for it and ask you for the sign of baptism.” The new brotherhood made its first convert. The same day Grebel officiated at a “breaking of bread” in Zollikon, the new brother being present.”
Dr. Fritz Blanke of Zurich University made some interesting comments on these two events.
“The gripping thing in this scene is its apostolic simplicity. It is difficult to imagine a greater contrast than between the baptism of Hirslanden and the christenings which at that time were customary in the churches of Zurich. Infants were still christened by Zwingli with blowing, driving out the devil, crossing, moistening with saliva, and anointing with oil. At Hirslanden all these accessories were lacking, as they had been lacking from baptism in early Christianity. The difference between the observance of the Lord’s Supper in Zollikon and the manner in which Zwingli and his pastors, in that same January 1525 celebrated the Lord’s Supper, is so great that it cannot be bridged. On the altars in the Grossmunster, in the parish church in Zollikon, we still find at that time the monstrance with the host, before it the pastor in chasuble, celebrating the Mass in Latin (omitting the sacrifice part), giving the congregation the wafer but not the cup. But here in the farmers’ parlours in Zollikon, laymen break ordinary bread and distribute along with the wine to all participants – a revolution in the history of the Lord’s Supper.”
Kind regards
Trevor
 
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