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Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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Sounds like good Godly advice to me brother!!!:applause::thumbsup:
The Matthew passage has nothing to do with anyone being grafted. Christ has not yet been to the cross and salvation had not been directly offered to the gentiles.
Sure it gets cleared up in the following verses:
Heb 6:7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
Heb 6:8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
The land (people) is given what is necessary( offer of salvation, revelation of God) to produce fruit ( christian works) and when it produces thorns and thistles (unchristian works) it is deemed worthless.
Sure the CEV renders it:
Gal 5:4 And if you try to please God by obeying the Law, you have cut yourself off from Christ and his wonderful kindness.
Which simply means that you being a christian stop living by grace and return to living by the law are now ineffective. The word "fallen" is the greek word ekpipko and means just that, to be ineffective. Nothing in this language speaks to being apostate.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: So there we have it. Obedience to the law and pleasing God is sin. That’s real good RM, real good. I think I would try the lucky dip method of finding a translation to use over again. Your first dip certainly missed the mark.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
So, let me get this straight. Christ was only talking about those that came before he was crucified?!
And your explanation of those that can be tossed into the fire is that the people are the land, and if they don't produce fruit, they are thrown into the fire? Good, glad we agree on that, if you are saying opposite, please try again, for it is plainly clear that when you are given grace, you are expected to bear fruit or you will torn from the vine and tossed into the fire. Torn from the vine=once was a part of the vine, but is not anymore.
By your reasoning then, if a person stops living a Christian and is ineffective from then on, you honestly believe that they are still going to reap the rewards promised? That they will forever be in heaven when they pass on?
Don't take the bait guys!
BobRyan is a master at flooding the board with his clip and paste book in order to throw you off into spending hours of your time explaining many scriptures which he and others like him will NEVER consider the meaning of anyways.
Scripture is very clear about Jesus' sheep. Are you a sheep or not? Very simple question and should cause an insecurity believer to take great pause of their pov.
Roman's 8 is another passage they cannot stand to answer to. It says that we KNOW we are children of God by the holy Spirit. Do you KNOW Jesus Christ via the regeneration by the Holy Spirit? If you KNOW Jesus you will NEVER perish. Scripture is so clear on these points that the only way you can approach the scriptures that the insecurity believers post in opposition is to study a bit deeper. Scripture cannot and will not contradict itself.
Here is what the insecurity believers need to answer (and they won't),
Are you a sheep? Yes or No
Do you personally KNOW Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit? Yes or No
Are you absolutely sure Jesus is the Son of God? Yes or No
Explain how one stops believing that which they have first hand personal knowledge of is an absolute truth?
You will not see these questions answered, for if they answer them, the debate is over.
Why do people go to great lengths to avoid a truth? Why not just accept it and agree with the blaring facts?
:godisgood:
I just read those verses, and while I am really new here, they seem like valid points to ask about it if one is trying to determine salvation.
Would it not do well to simply address the scriptures that were given and answer them as well as you can? Avoiding questions actually proves a point I don't think you want to prove.
Am I mistaken that we are here to discuss the differences of other faiths? If I am not mistaken, one should be ready to support their side of the spectrum, so to speak.
God bless.
I just read those verses, and while I am really new here, they seem like valid points to ask about it if one is trying to determine salvation.
Would it not do well to simply address the scriptures that were given and answer them as well as you can? Avoiding questions actually proves a point I don't think you want to prove.
Am I mistaken that we are here to discuss the differences of other faiths? If I am not mistaken, one should be ready to support their side of the spectrum, so to speak.
God bless.
Not sure what you are saying. Can you answer my questions?
:jesus:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. No one ever stops believing completely. Not in my opinion anyway, but knowing full well about Christ, through the Holy Spirit, and walking away is the most horrendous of slaps in the face one can give your creator. You can give me a gift any day for free, and I can toss it out the window if I so chose.
Christ loves us enough to grant us free will, and allow us to use it. He will not make us do anything that we do not want to do. He is our Father, and therefore treats us as a father would treat their children. Salvation given, can also be salvation thrown away.
Now, I was saying that HP has a very good point about the scriptures they asked about, and were never answered as far as I can tell. Mind answering those? I hope so, I answered yours. It's only through dialog that we can truly begin to mend the gap that divides Christ's church here on earth.
According to your answers, you cannot lose your salvation. UNLESS you believe that God sends His children to hell. You see, it all begins with the rebirth. Understand born of God and you will understand OSAS.
I love studying scripture and would love to answer any scripture you like. I will not answer a flood of scripture designed to avoid answering pointed questions as BobRyan does and in this case HP presented.
Now that you have answered my questions and your answers prove that you know Jesus Christ personally via the Holy Spirit, any scripture you would like to discuss must be viewed in the light of what you know to be fact. Fact is you are a sheep and Jesus said His sheep will never perish and He does not lose any.
So present a scripture and we will look at it. One at a time please. But not tonight, I must go to bed now.
God Bless!
:jesus:
BTW, free will has nothing to do with losing salvation. Our Father has forgiven us every transgression for the sake of Christ because we received His Holy SPirit. Throwing a hissy fit or even shaking your fist at God as a child of His is covered. Thank God He is a good Father who does not let His children perish under their own "free will". Rather He disciplines and if need be He takes them out of their sinful vessel freeing them from their own destruction. Jesus is the GOOD Sheperd! Praise Him!
:jesus:
No Christ was only talking to the Jews
Again only the Jews at this moment
You do not want to treat this passage as if it were a passage out of any book after acts. Christ was speaking to the Jewish nation not to the Gentiles.
I feel horrible for the Jews then. By your reasoning, all the scripture I pointed out was meant for the Jews. What then applies to us for salvation in scripture?
Apparently any scripture that actually says we are not always assured salvation was only meant for the Jews, and all scripture that says we are assured salvation was meant for the Gentiles.
If you want to discuss them one by one, we can do that. In the scripture below, Paul was speaking to believers.
Please explain your interpretation to what he is saying.
Gal. 5: 4 You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
"Apparently" you have a reading comprehension problem and no ability to wade through the scripture. Your sophomoric attention to this matter displays your profound ignorance. This is my last word on this.
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Hmm..this is a shame. Calling me names and then not actually answering any questions that have been asked is something.
Your job is to evangelize using scripture. Please do so for me. Explain the other verses, listed on this very thread, and say you can fall from grace, and thus lose your salvation. If you don't want to talk anymore, I understand though.
Thanks for your time, please pray for my ignorance.
First let me say that "interpretation" belongs to God alone by His very Word. What we are called to do is to "study" and "rightly divide" the word of truth.
Therefore to make sense, so to speak, of scripture one must take into consideration the full counsel of God's word when forming doctrine.
So the focus in this thread is "Can a true believer turn away from the faith?" When we qualify "believer" with the word "true" it is accepted that this means one who is born of God by the Holy Spirit. It is also accepted that there are those who just "say" they are believers but have never been born of God, this is why the poster qualified "believer" with "true". The poster accepts the fact that some professors of faith are not true or born again believers. This is important to remember because many passages that the insecurity believers post as saved then lost are in fact speaking about these false professors who were never born again to begin with. James is a good example of this.
So let's look at this verse you posted,
Gal. 5: 4 You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Paul said in Eph 2 that we are saved by grace through faith and this NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God. Paul makes it clear that we are saved totally by grace, there is NOTHING we done to justify our receiving God's grace. Absolutely nothing!
Some legalistic Jews wanted to accept Christ and at the same time still inforce the deeds of the law as the means to salvation. These false teachers wanted to keep these "babes in Christ" under the bondage of the law.
I have a question for you Fignar;
You have been born of God, you know Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, your spirit testifies with His Spirit that you are indeed a child of God. You also believe that obedience to God's laws, not perfection, but running a good race, enduring unto the end, obeying commandments, that these things also justify your soul unto salvation and without these things you will not be saved. Does this describe yourself?
If it does, and this verse means what you think it means (a loss of salvation), then I have bad news for you. You have fallen from grace and you cannot be saved, you who started in Christ and now are trying to be justified by the law.
Maybe this does not describe you. If not, let me ask you another question.
If we are saved by grace alone through faith (as Paul says in Ehp) and we mistakenly believe that we also must obey God's laws to be saved so we add this to our faith and practice, will we then be cut off from Christ for our ignorance, trying to be justified by deeds of the law as well as by Christ and His grace?
If Gal 5:4 says what you believe it says then by the word of God we must be cut off for holding these wrong views even though we trust that Jesus Christ is the one who saves us.
We have to agree on what the verse cannot be saying before we can conclude on what it is saying.
So answer the questions above and see if "once saved, then lost" can logically be an interpretation for this verse.
Do you believe that works of the law will justify you? If so, Paul says you have fallen from grace. Does this then mean that even though you trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, misguided views can cancel grace and make you lost again?
:jesus:
Well said Steaver! :type:
The passage says "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."
When we submit to the law, are we working under grace or under a yoke of slavery? If we count on our works to save us, then Christ is of no advantage to us. Nothing.
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