Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

[annsni]

The Scripture that tell me clearly that we cannot lose our salvation are:


Ephesians 1:13-14 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

We were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is our guarantee of our inheritance. The word used for "guarantee" is a word that denotes a down payment in promise of the finished payment. Who made that down payment? Us? No - God did and it is a PROMISE of the finished payment. We WILL receive our inheritance. God guarantees it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: We WILL receive our inheritance. God guarantees it.

HP: Amen!..........IF: 1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
Joh 15:10 IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Col 1:23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[Jedi Knight]

but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers Luke 22:32 "May not fail" is the part the one who feels they can fall away FOCUS on BUT read the rest!! Good to know Jesus prays for TRUE BELIEVERS! Jesus later said, "I do not pray for the world but for those you have given me." “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My Glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail;....

HP: If of necessity one could not fail, prayer would be of no avail. Necessity would simply rule. If necessity rules, we can all simply go a fishing. “May not’ is not synonymous with ‘cannot’ or ‘will not’ or ‘could not.’ It was none other than JESUS HIMSELF that was doing the focusing in this verse on the truth JK, the truth that one could fall away from their faith, making shipwreck of it. He was praying that they would not, and when they were strengthened, to help strengthen others.

 

[steaver]

HP: If of necessity one could not fail, prayer would be of no avail.

Then you believe Jesus could have failed to atone for us? Or wasted His time praying to the Father for His death to be avoided?

Mat 26:39And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].
And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Jesus prayed three times for something to happen that could not possiby happen. Notice Jesus also said "IF" this cup "MAY NOT" pass away from Him.

Do you believe Jesus could have failed since He prayed for the cup to pass, and thought "If" it "may" pass?

Not once, not twice, but three times He prayed for the impossible! For it was written even before the foundation of the world that He would indeed suffer and die, and God cannot lie nor fail.

It is written,

Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Was Jesus lying to His disciples? Why did He pray the Father to possibly take away the cup?

Tell Jesus in your prayers that He wasted His time praying to the Father seeing how He could not fail and that He should have just gone fishing until His crucifixion time came.


(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

"Never" aways means never and "If" has many contextual scenarios.



:jesus:

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: If of necessity one could not fail, prayer would be of no avail. Necessity would simply rule. If necessity rules, we can all simply go a fishing. “May not’ is not synonymous with ‘cannot’ or ‘will not’ or ‘could not.’ It was none other than JESUS HIMSELF that was doing the focusing in this verse on the truth JK, the truth that one could fall away from their faith, making shipwreck of it. He was praying that they would not, and when they were strengthened, to help strengthen others.

HP pay attention.....Jesus said "once you have turned" ....not if ya turn!:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: HP pay attention.....Jesus said "once you have turned" ....not if ya turn!

HP: Yes He did in fact, but one needs to be careful not to try and force exclusive interpretations upon the Word of God that is written in common parlance. ‘Once ye have turned’ by no means establishes a fact that end the end all spoken to ‘will turn.’ "Once ye have turned" by no means establishes the necessity of turning as you seem to be implying.

Many times preachers speak of themselves in the first person, or address the crowd as if though all are saved in order to give a brief glimpse into the blessed reality than is ours as Christians to hopefully encourage them to make the right choices or to keep them from being discouraged to the point of giving up all hope. Scripture is no exception. Paul used those tactics clearly and after giving an admonishment made comment such as the following comment: Heb 6:9 ¶ But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

That was no certain indication that in the end all that were spoken to made it in, but rather was given as encouragement to help them stay on the path. “Once ye have turned’ is no absolute guarantee that one will turn. Your comments espouse a necessitated gospel, which is no where established in Scripture or reason. Even God foreknowing does not necessitate the outcome in moral isues or issues dealing with salvation. The outcome is predicated on the choices of man acting freely in the context of the ability to act in a contrary manner and is not in any way necessitated by this text or any other.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Yes He did in fact, but one needs to be careful not to try and force exclusive interpretations upon the Word of God that is written in common parlance. ‘Once ye have turned’ by no means establishes a fact that end the end all spoken to ‘will turn.’ "Once ye have turned" by no means establishes the necessity of turning as you seem to be implying

I don't agree how your applying this scripture. Jesus knew Peter WOULD turn thus he told him what do after. Jesus knew the rooster WOULD crow too and that Peter WOULD deny him 3 times and that he WOULD return. Jesus also told Him what manner of death Peter WOULD face that would glorify God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: I don't agree how your applying this scripture. Jesus knew Peter would turn thus he told him what do do after.

HP: That by the way is a very polite, kind and charitable way to word your disagreement! Thank you!:thumbsup::applause:

I would simply state again that indeed Christ could have know absolutely the final state of Peter, but God’s knowing does not necessitate the outcome when it comes to salvation or any ‘moral act’ whatsoever. If there is blame or praise for an action, rest assured that necessity is in no way involved. For praise or blame to predicated of an intent or subsequent action, freedom of contrary choice must be possible.

 

[Jedi Knight]

I can tell you that Jesus does indeed know my final destination! Jesus is God and I trust when He says,"whoever lives and believes in me will never die!" Do you believe this?? :jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: whoever lives and believes in me will never die!" Do you believe this??

HP: Yes JK, I do believe that verse.

Say this over a few times in your heart to the Lord. What might have He to say to you?
‘whoever lives and believes in me will never die!"
‘whoever lives and believes in me will never die!"
‘whoever lives and believes in me will never die!"
…………..
What is the meaning of ‘whoever ‘lives’ AND ‘believes’ ‘IN Me?’
Is it whoever simply believes or whosever lives? According to this verse, what is the importance given to ‘living’ IN Christ? Notice clearly the 'two' stated conditions in this verse in order to entertain the hope of ‘never dying.’

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Yes JK, I do believe that verse.

Say this over a few times in your heart to the Lord. What might have He to say to you?
‘whoever lives and believes in me will never die!"
‘whoever lives and believes in me will never die!"
‘whoever lives and believes in me will never die!"
…………..
What is the meaning of ‘whoever ‘lives’ AND ‘believes’ ‘IN Me?’
Is it whoever simply believes or whosever lives? According to this verse, what is the importance given to ‘living’ IN Christ? Notice clearly the 'two' stated conditions in this verse in order to entertain the hope of ‘never dying.’

Using YOUR theological glasses I can see why you come to that conclusion.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK, with your kind responses of late, one almost wonders if you have had a change of heart? :smilewinkgrin:

Seriously it is a joy to be able to discuss every issue on this forum as we have been able to do. If I can practice love and consideration for others as you and others show to me, God will bless our interaction. Would'nt that be something if those visiting this board might find the love of God expressed between even those who disagree on many of these issues? Love will always leave a deeper and more lasting impression than mere doctrinal agreement. :thumbsup:

 

[eightball]

Apostle Paul clear says/said that when we become true Christians, we are "new creations/creatures" in Christ Jesus.

Now to become "uncreated out of Christ" is pretty lame, and weak.

When one is saved Spirit of Christ/H.S. comes to reside in the soul of the new believer. Now the process of displacing the self life or flesh from taking center stage in the soul starts to happen.

Can we become uncreated in Christ Jesus? Sounds pretty ridiculous, doesn't it?

Many are attracted and highly interested in the Christ life, but has that actual transaction happened where that soul by a willful act, "surrenders" their life to the Lordship of Christ/God?

Many undiscipled, folks have lived life as believers yet their lives have hardly exhibited any Christ-like elements. Romans 12 clearly points us to filling our minds with God's truths, which in turn replace the programming of the old Adamic life that was left at the cross. Galatians 2:20

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eightball: Many undiscipled, folks have lived life as believers yet their lives have hardly exhibited any Christ-like elements.

HP: How might you reconcile or harmonize your statement here with these few brief passages of Scripture? ( there are many more that could be listed besides these by the way)
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[eightball]

There are myriads of people that "know" Jesus, but aren't saved.......I believe that if you don't have the "truth", you don't have the H.S.. therefore you will have difficulty obeying God.

To have the "truth" is to have "Jesus" not superficially, but deeply.........placed within one's soul by God.

You explain to me how you can become "uncreated in Christ"?

What did Paul mean when he referred to us as "new creations in Christ"...........Then God uncreates us and puts us back into the Adamic life? How can one be crucified with Christ/Galatians 2:20, be buried with Christ, be raised up with Christ, be seated in the heavenlies with Christ, and then somehow have the Adamic fallen nature along with this new given nature.

To lose one's salvation is to have a model of salvation and the identity in Christ so skewed, and basically living a schizophrenic earthly life. I.E. we would walk this tenuous walk where we would fear that we could be plucked out of the "sheepfold" anytime we didn't measure up. Pauls Roman's 7 war in his personal walk was his new nature vs. the power of sin working through the flesh.

Those scriptures that many interpret as lost salvation are those that "tasted" the truth, but did not consume it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eightball: How can one be crucified with Christ/Galatians 2:20, be buried with Christ, be raised up with Christ, be seated in the heavenlies with Christ, and then somehow have the Adamic fallen nature along with this new given nature.

HP: Does the new nature cause one to live as the ones you spoke of earlier that had little to no fruits that were representative of a Christian life as I recall you implying?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eightball: Those scriptures that many interpret as lost salvation are those that "tasted" the truth, but did not consume it.

HP: Do all the Scriptures listed fit your explanation? (Thanks to Bob Ryan for the following list of passages)

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

yes, he can.

 

[Revmitchell]

no he cannot

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.