Eternal Union of Christ and His Children

[savedbymercy]

Again, you are ignoring the relationship between "justifed" and "called" and "glorified" in regard to "them" in Romans 8:30 and the fact that this is GOD's VIEW from His eternal purpose (v. 28). You cannot pick and choose but that is exactly what you are doing in order to justify your theory!

The Elect were never Charged with their own sins. They were charged to Christ !

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Elect were never Charged with their own sins. They were charged to Christ !

So this is your so-called response to my challenge????? You simply make a assertion that has nothing to do with my challenge, nothing to do with the text - Rom. 8:30 - nothing to do with anything but simply parroting the same old unfounded, disproven assertion.

 

[savedbymercy]

So this is your so-called response to my challenge????? You simply make a assertion that has nothing to do with my challenge, nothing to do with the text - Rom. 8:30 - nothing to do with anything but simply parroting the same old unfounded, disproven assertion.

I have answered that challenge in another post, look for it. In the mean time, it remains the Truth that The Elect never had their sins laid to their Charge, but to Christ. They were Justified..

 

[Dr. Walter]

I have answered that challenge in another post, look for it. In the mean time, it remains the Truth that The Elect never had their sins laid to their Charge, but to Christ. They were Justified..

No you have not. If you had you would either point the post out or repeat it. I have looked and you have done no such thing.

This is supposed to be a discussion forum not a proganda forum where one simply repeats over and over again a view that has been totally proven to be false. Deal with the evidence or why continue to discuss?

 

[savedbymercy]

The indestructible Union of Jesus Christ and His Church !


The whole of Mans Salvation is wrapped up in this blessed Truth, the truth of Christ having ever died for sins is associated with this Truth, for if there was not any in union with Him when He died on the cross, then for no ones sins did He die for..

The permanent, binding and eternal union of Christ and His church, and the distinction between Adam and Christ, should be considered more here. There were two different Families in Adam and in Christ, now I believe the people are the same in each, but two different lives originate from them. The First is Natural, the Second is Spiritual. Jesus Christ existed before Adam, but Adam was the First in Manifestation in time..

Like John the baptist who from a time perspective, was manifested by physical birth before Jesus Christ, for He was six months older than He ..but John acknowledges that the man Jesus Christ existed before Him, lets read here:

Jn 1:30

This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Notice, the Man which was preferred before Him, and was before Him..

So Adam was the head and progenitor of all the natural Family of the elect of God; For He was earthy or of the earth, and likewise Jesus Christ [ who was before Adam] was constituted the Head and Progenitor of a Spiritual Family for He was heavenly and Spiritual.

That He existed in the beginning before all things as the Head of the Church is taught here by Paul.. Col 1:15-18

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Christ must have the preeminence of being a Head, not Adam ! In fact, Adam was made a Head of a Family because he was made in the Image of Christ, the Heavenly God Man Mediator !

A Family must always exist in their Father or Progenitor before or prior to their development or manifestation, so it is with each head of the elect, both Adam and Christ.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The indestructible Union of Jesus Christ and His Church !


The whole of Mans Salvation is wrapped up in this blessed Truth, the truth of Christ having ever died for sins is associated with this Truth, for if there was not any in union with Him when He died on the cross, then for no ones sins did He die for..

That is simply answered by saying it was a union at that point only by purposed provision for the elect and nothing more and Christ obtained that purposed provision for the elect in both his life and death as the purposed representative man for His people. However, he was not in any kind of actual spiritual union with any of His elect previous to their regeneration which was also previously purposed and provided by His death in in their behal.

The permanent, binding and eternal union of Christ and His church, .

First, you do not know the meaning of the "church" in scriptures as there was no such "church" previous to the ministry of Christ as there was no "foundation" for such a church without the apostles (Eph. 2:20) who were set "FIRST" into that "church" (I Cor. 12:28). No such "church" existed in the Old Testament or in the garden of Eden. You are confused and do not distinguish properly between the kingdom of God versus the family of God versus the church of God as they are not synonymous terms. The church is given the keys of THE KINGDOM but it is not the kingdom (Mt. 18:17). The church contains SOME of God's family members but it is not the family.

and the distinction between Adam and Christ, should be considered more here. There were two different Families in Adam and in Christ, now I believe the people are the same in each, but two different lives originate from them. The First is Natural, the Second is Spiritual. Jesus Christ existed before Adam, but Adam was the First in Manifestation in time.
Like John the baptist who from a time perspective, was manifested by physical birth before Jesus Christ, for He was six months older than He ..but John acknowledges that the man Jesus Christ existed before Him, lets read here:

The comparative contrast between Adam and Christ is not between Adam and the Eternal Son of God - that is your first mistake.

Your second mistake is that those "in Adam" did not precede CREATION but were CREATED in him and likewise those "in Christ" - Eph. 2:10. Other than being "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) the family members in Adam and the family members in Christ only preceded CREATION by PURPOSEFUL THOUGHT but in no actual existent form whether it was "in Adam" or was "in Christ."

Jn 1:30

This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Notice, the Man which was preferred before Him, and was before Him..

John is referring to his NATURE AS GOD not his NATURE as man. He is referring to him as the ETERNAL WORD not his redemptive work as the incarnate God man.

So Adam was the head and progenitor of all the natural Family of the elect of God; For He was earthy or of the earth, and likewise Jesus Christ [ who was before Adam] was constituted the Head and Progenitor of a Spiritual Family for He was heavenly and Spiritual.

This is nothing but flat mormonism and polythesism. John's words cannot be construed to support this heresy in any way shape or form. Ther is no EXACT parallellism between Adam and Christ when it comes to children and you know that. Christ's children did not come by way of generation but regeneration. Christ's children were not part of HIS NATURE but were fully human in nature so they had to be ADOPTED into his family and REgenerated for spiritual union with His Spirit.

That He existed in the beginning before all things as the Head of the Church is taught here by Paul.. Col 1:15-18

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

The term "head" simply means "authority" in this context. If you attempt to make it mean some kind of "spiritual union" then he was in spiritual union with all creation - thus pantheism, as much as, he was in spiritual union with the church as Paul says in Ephesians 1:22


22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

The term "head" NEVER means spiritual union in the scriptures when used metaphorically. If you view was true then Christ is in "spiritual union" with every human male ever born as Paul says:

1 Cor. 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Did you know what Paul "would have you know" concerning the HEADSHIP of Christ over "every man"??? So much for your spiritual union application of the metaphor "head."

A Family must always exist in their Father or Progenitor before or prior to their development or manifestation, so it is with each head of the elect, both Adam and Christ.

You should be a Mormon because this is nothing but pure Mormon kind of eisgesis. You take a purely physical truth and pervert it by applying it to a spiritual substance. A PHYSICAL HUMAN family always exists in their father due to CREATED reproductive capacity. You say, "so it is with" Christ. To apply this to the preincarnate God the Son is pure Mormonism. Why not attribute a human body to the PRE-incarnate Son of God as well. Why not attribute CHICKEN WINGS to God as well as God describes himself with chicken "wings" that protect his chicklings.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

That is simply answered by saying it was a union at that point only by purposed provision for the elect and nothing more and Christ obtained that purposed provision for the elect in both his life and death as the purposed representative man for His people. However, he was not in any kind of actual spiritual union with any of His elect previous to their regeneration which was also previously purposed and provided by His death in in their behal.

When Christ became a Surety for the Elect by the Terms of the Everlasting Covenant, For God to accept it, Christ would have to be in a Union of Oneness legally. God would have to recognize the Oneness, or Justice could not be meted out Fairly. God recognizes the Union of a Head and it's Members.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



When Christ became a Surety for the Elect by the Terms of the Everlasting Covenant, For God to accept it, Christ would have to be in a Union of Oneness legally. God would have to recognize the Oneness, or Justice could not be meted out Fairly. God recognizes the Union of a Head and it's Members.

The covenant was made before the world began - no question - but what you are ignoring is the terms of the covenant preceded the administration of the covenant and the administration did not occur before the world began and absolute proof is that "every mouth" and "all the world" were CONDEMNED BY THE LAW and UNDER THE LAW as sinners and remained lost until they were saved, remained unjustified until they were justified by faith, remained unregenerate until they were regenerated and remained "children of wrath" even as other until they were born "children of God."

 

[convicted1]

The covenant was made before the world began - no question - but what you are ignoring is the terms of the covenant preceded the administration of the covenant and the administration did not occur before the world began and absolute proof is that "every mouth" and "all the world" were CONDEMNED BY THE LAW and UNDER THE LAW as sinners and remained lost until they were saved, remained unjustified until they were justified by faith, remained unregenerate until they were regenerated and remained "children of wrath" even as other until they were born "children of God."

Very well stated, Brother!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

The covenant was made before the world began

Yes, and thats when Christ became a Surety and legally Responsible for His Body ! If God did not see Him as One with His Members or Seed, then it would not have went down. But Christ and His Seed are all of One Heb 2:11

11For both he that sanctifieth[Christ] and they who are sanctified[His Seed] are all of one[Father]: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

but what you are ignoring is the terms of the covenant preceded the administration of the covenant and the administration did not occur before the world began

#1. Thats a foolish statement in light of God's view of things, He is not bound by time to count or reckon The Covenant confirmed.

#2. Even though Christ did not actually die in time until 33 ad, nevertheless, The legal Guilt of the Elect were laid to His Charge as Surety before the World began. The Elect never were charged legally for their sins, if they were then Christ was not their Surety before the world began. And if thats the case then there was no Everlasting Covenant..

 

[convicted1]

The Elect were never Charged with their own sins. They were charged to Christ !

A better way to say this would be that Jesus took our sins, all of mankind's sin, upon Himself, and made the atonement for our sins. That those who would believe that He is, and that He is a Rewarder of them which do diligently seek Him, would receive His atoning Grace. At that moment, they are then placed in Christ.

 

[convicted1]

Commentaries on Eph. chapter 1.

Matthew Henry:
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=49&c=1


John Wesley:
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=49&c=1&com=wes

Here are two who disagree with your stance on when we are in Christ.

 

[savedbymercy]

A better way to say this would be that Jesus took our sins, all of mankind's sin, upon Himself, and made the atonement for our sins. That those who would believe that He is, and that He is a Rewarder of them which do diligently seek Him, would receive His atoning Grace. At that moment, they are then placed in Christ.

Please deal with the content of post 65 if you can. Dont change the subject..

 

[Dr. Walter]

I dealt with post #65 in detail and yet you ignored 99% of my response. So how can you tell others not to change the subject when you are avoiding detailed responses to that post???????? My response to post #65 is repeated below.

That is simply answered by saying it was a union at that point only by purposed provision for the elect and nothing more and Christ obtained that purposed provision for the elect in both his life and death as the purposed representative man for His people. However, he was not in any kind of actual spiritual union with any of His elect previous to their regeneration which was also previously purposed and provided by His death in in their behal.



First, you do not know the meaning of the "church" in scriptures as there was no such "church" previous to the ministry of Christ as there was no "foundation" for such a church without the apostles (Eph. 2:20) who were set "FIRST" into that "church" (I Cor. 12:28). No such "church" existed in the Old Testament or in the garden of Eden. You are confused and do not distinguish properly between the kingdom of God versus the family of God versus the church of God as they are not synonymous terms. The church is given the keys of THE KINGDOM but it is not the kingdom (Mt. 18:17). The church contains SOME of God's family members but it is not the family.




The comparative contrast between Adam and Christ is not between Adam and the Eternal Son of God - that is your first mistake.

Your second mistake is that those "in Adam" did not precede CREATION but were CREATED in him and likewise those "in Christ" - Eph. 2:10. Other than being "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10) the family members in Adam and the family members in Christ only preceded CREATION by PURPOSEFUL THOUGHT but in no actual existent form whether it was "in Adam" or was "in Christ."



John is referring to his NATURE AS GOD not his NATURE as man. He is referring to him as the ETERNAL WORD not his redemptive work as the incarnate God man.



This is nothing but flat mormonism and polythesism. John's words cannot be construed to support this heresy in any way shape or form. Ther is no EXACT parallellism between Adam and Christ when it comes to children and you know that. Christ's children did not come by way of generation but regeneration. Christ's children were not part of HIS NATURE but were fully human in nature so they had to be ADOPTED into his family and REgenerated for spiritual union with His Spirit.




The term "head" simply means "authority" in this context. If you attempt to make it mean some kind of "spiritual union" then he was in spiritual union with all creation - thus pantheism, as much as, he was in spiritual union with the church as Paul says in Ephesians 1:22


22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

The term "head" NEVER means spiritual union in the scriptures when used metaphorically. If you view was true then Christ is in "spiritual union" with every human male ever born as Paul says:

1 Cor. 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Did you know what Paul "would have you know" concerning the HEADSHIP of Christ over "every man"??? So much for your spiritual union application of the metaphor "head."





You should be a Mormon because this is nothing but pure Mormon kind of eisgesis. You take a purely physical truth and pervert it by applying it to a spiritual substance. A PHYSICAL HUMAN family always exists in their father due to CREATED reproductive capacity. You say, "so it is with" Christ. To apply this to the preincarnate God the Son is pure Mormonism. Why not attribute a human body to the PRE-incarnate Son of God as well. Why not attribute CHICKEN WINGS to God as well as God describes himself with chicken "wings" that protect his chicklings.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

I dealt with post #65 in detail and yet you ignored 99% of my response

I am not referring to you now. Also all you did was attempt to explain away the truth, so thats that.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



I am not referring to you now. Also all you did was attempt to explain away the truth, so thats that.

Why are you on this forum? This is a discussion forum. A Forum for reasonable ard rational debate!

You have no intentions of discussing anything reasonably and rationally but rather you here to propagandize your irrational ideas and seek converts.

There is no sense in using so many threads to discuss anything with you as nothing but complete nonsense is the consequence. I am therefore dropping all discussion but the thread on Romans 11 and there I have placed before you Biblical and grammatical evidence in abundance that you are wrong. I will simply let you beat your head against God's Word on that thread.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

This is a discussion forum.

I have been discussing, that does not mean I have to chase all the rabbit trails. This thread is about The Eternal Union of Christ and His Church,you just reject it. Some things you bring up I will comment, and some I wont, thats just how it is. Its on you to prove what I have stated in error, which you have failed to do, all you are doing is denying it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



I have been discussing, that does not mean I have to chase all the rabbit trails. This thread is about The Eternal Union of Christ and His Church,you just reject it. Some things you bring up I will comment, and some I wont, thats just how it is. Its on you to prove what I have stated in error, which you have failed to do, all you are doing is denying it.

Yeah right! You comment on non-essentials and intentionally ignore the VAST amoung of Bibical and rational evidence placed before you! That is not discussion, that is not even serious exchange of ideas. I have spent most my time repeating evidence that destroys your whole position and all you do is IGNORE and RUN and REPEAT what has been proven wrong!

 

[convicted1]

Please deal with the content of post 65 if you can. Dont change the subject..

I did not change the subject, Bro. SBG. Here was the last sentence of the post you questioned.

At that moment, they are then placed in Christ.

I was using that post to show you that we are placed into Christ the very instant He pours His blood over us, and cleanses our soul, and makes it white as wool. We can not be in rebellion(a sinner), and still be in Christ.

 

[savedbymercy]

I did not change the subject, Bro. SBG. Here was the last sentence of the post you questioned.

At that moment, they are then placed in Christ.

I was using that post to show you that we are placed into Christ the very instant He pours His blood over us, and cleanses our soul, and makes it white as wool. We can not be in rebellion(a sinner), and still be in Christ.

There was never a moment when The Elect were not in Christ, they were Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This thread is about the Eternal Union of Christ and His Church ! Stick with the subject, there is not a scripture that says anything about a moment the elect are placed in Christ, thats fable..

We can not be in rebellion(a sinner), and still be in Christ.

Thats a false statement and contrary to scripture. The elect, even while they are enemies [present tense] have been reconciled [past tense] to God by the Death of Chrst. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

To be reconciled here means to have been received into God's favour, even while in rebellion..