Eternal Union of Christ and His Children

[Dr. Walter]

I did not change the subject, Bro. SBG. Here was the last sentence of the post you questioned.

At that moment, they are then placed in Christ.

I was using that post to show you that we are placed into Christ the very instant He pours His blood over us, and cleanses our soul, and makes it white as wool. We can not be in rebellion(a sinner), and still be in Christ.

If you think you can have a rational and reasonable discussion with SBG, then, good luck. He will not respond to any Biblical evidence that exposes his errors. He simply ignores any evidence you place before him. He answers by pitting scripture against scripture and then simply keeps repeating the same disproven proof texting points over and over and over again. It is a complete waste of time to talk to him about anything you disagree with him.

 

[savedbymercy]

More on the Eternal Union of Christ and His Church !
As stated already, a family always exist in the progenitor prior to their development and manifestation, and so it is with Adam and Christ..

But briefly I am going to digress because their is another family belonging to another Father, that being the Serpent or the devil..Lets make no mistake that Christ acknowledges Him as a Father here in Jn 8:44

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The word for Father here is

patēr which means:

generator or male ancestor

a) either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents

b) a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David

1) fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation

c) one advanced in years, a senior

2) metaph.
a) the originator and transmitter of anything

1) the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself

2) one who has infused
his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds

So the Serpent had been given to be the progenitor of a people Just as Adam was and like Christ was..All of this is the Sovereign Work of God..

Also Elohim in the beginning intimated the same when speaking to the serpent shortly after the fall Gen 3:14-15


14And the LORD God said unto the serpent[Who is the devil], Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The serpent is said by Elohim to have a seed, now the word in the Hebrew is:

zera` and means:

) seed, sowing, offspring
a) a sowing
b) seed
c) semen virile
d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children

So this confirms the Truth that the serpent/devil had been give a offspring or children that He was the head of..Just as Adam and Christ..

So in the beginning Adam had a seed or offspring in Him, and the Serpent had a seed or offspring in Him..both Fathers are as One with their offspring, they both act in behalf of their offspring..

Now back to Jesus Christ and Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ existed before time, as one with the Father and One with His church; there was a incorruptible seed [ spiritual ] existing in Him as the Son of God, which was the Life of the church Jn 1:4

4In him was life [ Spiritual]; and the life was the light[Spiritual] of men.

For He was Glorified with the Father before the world was [ see Jn 17:5] and represented in Himself the elect or chosen family of God before they were made partakers of flesh and blood, for this was intimated in Heb 2:14

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Now it should be noted, that the children are recognized as such even before partaking of flesh and blood in Adam.. So too children were recognized as such before existing , with Esau and Jacob Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth..

For it is plain that they were the children from Gods perspective before they were ever born .. Hence the Church had a Spiritual Existence in Christ, a Oneness of life and being, before she had a natural existence in Adam, when He was created by the power of God from the dust of the ground in the beginning..
__________________

 

[savedbymercy]

For it is plain that they were the children from Gods perspective before they were ever born .. Hence the Church had a spiritual existence in Christ, a Oneness of life and being, before she had a natural existence in Adam, when He was created by the power of God from the dust of the ground in the beginning..

So when Adam sinned, the Elect Family sinned in Him [ Rom 5:12], the Natural Existence of the chosen Family was in the loins of Adam, and so likewise the non elect reprobated family was in the loins of the Serpent or the devil, but because of sin, and for the furthering of Gods redemptive purpose, the serpents seed or family was added or grafted into the Natural headship Adam, so Adam became reproducer of both the elect seed and non elect reprobated seed in their natural lives..And so, all men by nature, both elect and non elect are by nature children of wrath..For by nature their is no visible difference between the elect and non elect..

But In Christ Jesus, grace had been already given to the elect, the Sons of God, for they had been blessed aforetime with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, according as they were chosen in Him [ not into Him] before the foundation of the world..

Eph 1:3-4

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

2 Tim 1:9

9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,[NIV]

Notice Paul writes that this grace was given us [ the chosen] in Christ Jesus, when ? before the beginning of time ..hence they had this grace before their creation in Adam in time and before their fall into sin in Adam..for we must remember, that all things were created for a redemptive from sin eternal purpose..

 

[Dr. Walter]

For it is plain that they were the children from Gods perspective before they were ever born .. Hence the Church had a spiritual existence in Christ, a Oneness of life and being, before she had a natural existence in Adam, when He was created by the power of God from the dust of the ground in the beginning..

So when Adam sinned, the Elect Family sinned in Him [ Rom 5:12], the Natural Existence of the chosen Family was in the loins of Adam, and so likewise the non elect reprobated family was in the loins of the Serpent or the devil, but because of sin, and for the furthering of Gods redemptive purpose, the serpents seed or family was added or grafted into the Natural headship Adam, so Adam became reproducer of both the elect seed and non elect reprobated seed in their natural lives..And so, all men by nature, both elect and non elect are by nature children of wrath..For by nature their is no visible difference between the elect and non elect..


But In Christ Jesus, grace had been already given to the elect, the Sons of God, for they had been blessed aforetime with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, according as they were chosen in Him [ not into Him] before the foundation of the world..

Eph 1:3-4

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

2 Tim 1:9

9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,[NIV]

Notice Paul writes that this grace was given us [ the chosen] in Christ Jesus, when ? before the beginning of time ..hence they had this grace before their creation in Adam in time and before their fall into sin in Adam..for we must remember, that all things were created for a redemptive from sin eternal purpose..

Your theory is based upon human logic that is full of flaws and full of perverted use of the scriptures.

For example, you have Adam the father of a seed, Satan a father of a seed and Christ a father of a seed - THREE different fathers with THREE different seeds and yet there are only TWO conditions within mankind - lost and saved OR elect and non-elect not THREE.

Another error of logic on your part is that the term "father" must always be understood in the sense of actual preexistence in PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL seminal union with the Father.

The term "father" also can be used METAPHORICALLY to convey LIKENESS without any PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL preexistent seminal union at all.

For example, Abraham is the "Father of MANY NATIONS" which has reference to the Gentiles but there was and is no actual physical or spiritual preexistence in regard to seminal union with Abraham. He is simply the EXAMPLE or PATTERN which gentile believers are patterned after.

For example Abraham is the "father of all who believe" which simply means he is the PRIME EXAMPLE IN LIKENESS.

John 6:44 has this sense in mind as does Genesis 3:15 in regard to Satan. All fallen human beings have Satan as their Father in this sense - LIKENESS by character and actions rather than any kind of seminal spiritual union. Thus we are legally ADOPTED by God into His family on the basis of justification and regeneration so that the CHARACTER of God is reestablished or His IMAGE or LIKENESS is restored to us.

Ge 4:21 And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Again, another example of the use of "father" used metaphorically that conveys only a relationship of PATTERN or LIKENESS that others follow after rather than any kind of spiritual or physical seminal union.

All the scriptures you continually abuse that speak of preexistence before creation prove no actual literal existence before creation other than outside of God's THOUGHTFUL PURPOSE or the BLUE PRINT of what God accomplishes only in TIME AND SPACE. We did not preexist creation in any other sense any more than we were also already glorified before creation (Romans 8:30). You seem incapable of discerning between PLAN and fulfillment, Eternity and time, literal and metaphorical language.

You are perverting the scriptures and your perversions will lead you into more and more perversions.The only breeding you are involved in is error as that is what error breeds - more errors.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Your theory is based upon human logic that is full of flaws and full of perverted use of the scriptures.

Its based upon scripture..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Its based upon scripture..

Readers, take note that this is the best response that SBG can give. He could not respond to the evidence for the metaphorical use of "father" and so once again he ignores the evidence and provides a empty response.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Readers, take note that this is the best response that SBG can give

I have given much already, and you have failed to disprove it !

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



I have given much already, and you have failed to disprove it !

Not so! I demonstrated all your reasoning based around the word "father" is not necessarily true as the term can be used metaphorically.

I have demonstrated that all your reasoning based around texts that speak of the elect in union with Christ before Creation are in fact in reference to God's purpose and HAVE NO MORE LITERAL BASIS THAN GLORIFICATION BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.

I have dismantled every argument you have presented either because the proof texts have been jerked out of context or based upon faulty reasoning.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

I have dismantled every argument you have presented either because the proof texts have been jerked out of context or based upon faulty reasoning

.

You have not done anything but deny the Truth of Eternal Union that the scripture sets forth to those who have eyes to see it..

Regardless of all your ranting and raving, Christ existed before the world began, and He had a seed in Him before the world began.

I need only establish from scripture those Two things. Now did Christ exist before the world began ? Yes, for all things were created by Him, Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Did He have a seed ? Yes Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Now you can deny it all you want, and rationalize it away if you like, the Truth remains..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw

I need only establish from scripture those Two things. Now did Christ exist before the world began ? Yes, for all things were created by Him, Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This text establishes no such thing. Paul is speaking of "Jesus Christ" as He existed in heaven at the time He writes this epistle. Was the "Jesus Christ" presently in heaven at the time of this writing the same as "the Word" that preexisted creation (Jn. 1:1-3)? No! Because if he was then John 1:14 has no meaning whatsoever. Jesus Christ presently in heaven was in a glorified bodily form. At the incarnation he "took upon himself" the nature of humanity (Philip. 2:6-7; Heb. 2). Paul is not attempting in this passage to prove that "Jesus Christ" as He existed in heaven at the time of writing was the same in nature when He created the world only that He preexisted his incarnation as God in nature and created all things. Paul is not contradicting Johns distinction in John 1:1-3 with John 1:14 but you are!

First, you stated that his human nature was "created" by the Triune God. Then you changed your position and said it was a product of eternal generation. When confronted with your contradictionary conclusions you then took the position that their was no difference between being "created" and being "generated." However, anyone that can use a Strong's or Young's concordance knows they are not the same.

What you are teaching is that humanity is as eternal as God and therefore is equal to God because you are teaching the eternal humanity of "the Word" - and so Mormonism is closer to your view than the Bible is.

Did He have a seed ? Yes Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Now you can deny it all you want, and rationalize it away if you like, the Truth remains..

This text says nothing about a "seed" PREEXISTING creation - not one word!Neither does this text support your idea that the "seed" preexisted creation in any real sense outside of God's THOUGHTFUL INTENTION or purpose. You base this whole theory on the literalization of the human reproductive system which is absurd when it comes to the preexistent Word.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

This text establishes no such thing. Paul is speaking of "Jesus Christ"

I just said that. Paul stated that the world was created by Jesus Christ. He had to exist as Jesus Christ for the world to be Created by Him..

Eph 3:9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This is part of being the Mediator, to be the medium of Creation. Now who does Paul says is the Mediator ? 1 Tim 2:5


5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Its pretty simple lest you deny that Christ is the Medium of Creation ! You already deny that He was Adam's Mediator, which represented Men, and thats what a Mediator is for, to between God and Men. We cannot say God did not know Adam would sin, since God decreed the sin of Adam before He created him. Grace had already been given the elect in Christ Jesus [ The Mediator] before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

1 Tim 2:5

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Its plain as day, just comparing scripture with scripture..

 

[Dr. Walter]

My oh my!!! The only thing I have denied is that the Second Person of the Godhead, "The Word" eternally existed as a human before the world began. I have denied that God is human before the world began. That is your Mormon doctrine not mine.

Jesus Christ is God but his humanity is not God but He is God who took upon himself the nature of man and he did this in the incarnation not before the incarnation - Jn. 1:14

Jesus Christ is the Creator - not the man - but the preexistent "Word" which is God created all things - that is all that Paul means and nothing more.

You are teaching plain old untarnished Mormonism.

The Man Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation EXCEPT in the plan of God - nothing more and nothing less. The God Jesus Christ preexisted his incarnation into human nature. He is now Jesus Christ both God and man but He was previously only "The Word" before he "became" flesh and took upon "the nature" of man.

You error is equal to the error of Arianism, Mormonism and Sabbellianism. Your error is a product of the spirit of antichrist (1 Jn. 4:2-4) as you deny he ever became a man but rather preexisted eternally as a man.

dw



I just said that. Paul stated that the world was created by Jesus Christ. He had to exist as Jesus Christ for the world to be Created by Him..

Eph 3:9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This is part of being the Mediator, to be the medium of Creation. Now who does Paul says is the Mediator ? 1 Tim 2:5


5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Its pretty simple lest you deny that Christ is the Medium of Creation ! You already deny that He was Adam's Mediator, which represented Men, and thats what a Mediator is for, to between God and Men. We cannot say God did not know Adam would sin, since God decreed the sin of Adam before He created him. Grace had already been given the elect in Christ Jesus [ The Mediator] before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

1 Tim 2:5

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Its plain as day, just comparing scripture with scripture..

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

The Man Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation EXCEPT in the plan of God

Thats a lie, you have no excuse now ! Jesus Christ was and is the Mediator of Men 1 Tim 2:5


5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

If Adam was a Man[Men] then The Man Christ Jesus was His Mediator.

Jesus Christ is God but his humanity is not God

I never said it was, thats your slander and misrepresentation. For Jesus Christ is both God and Man, Two separate Natures

Jesus Christ is the Creator

In His Deity He is Creator, but in His Mediatorial Manhood He is the Medium of Creation 1

You are teaching plain old untarnished Mormonism.

More slander and misrepresentation, prove it or be found a liar.

The God Jesus Christ preexisted his incarnation into human nature.

The Lord Jesus Christ Preexisted as both God and Man before the world was Created. He was God in His Divinity and He was the Man Mediator Jn 1:1 & 1 Tim 2:5 It was as the Man Mediator He entered into Covenant, the Everlasting Covenant as the Surety for His Seed Chosen in Him !

You error is equal to the error of Arianism, Mormonism and Sabbellianism.

More Slander and Misrepresentation, prove it. I believe in the God Head Trinity, prove to us any of those others believe that. This shows me how deceitful and dishonest you are.

He was previously only "The Word"

The Word was in Union with the Mediatorial Man before the Incarnation, He Just became flesh and blood at the Incarnation.

Your error is a product of the spirit of antichrist (1 Jn. 4:2-4) as you deny he ever became a man but rather preexisted eternally as a man.

Actually what you are teaching is more in line with Anti Christ, for you are denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh ! Now lets read 1 Jn 4:2-3

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Now, in order for Jesus Christ to come in the flesh, He had to exist as Jesus Christ before coming in the Flesh. And He did, for Paul states unequivocally that All things were Created by who ? Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Thats a lie, you have no excuse now ! Jesus Christ was and is the Mediator of Men 1 Tim 2:5


5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

If Adam was a Man[Men] then The Man Christ Jesus was His Mediator.

The text says nothing about being the Mediator BEFORE creation - NOTHING!

The text says nothing about being a Man BEFORE creation - NOTHING!

I never said it was, thats your slander and misrepresentation. For Jesus Christ is both God and Man, Two separate Natures

You are teaching the ETERNAL existence of Jesus Christ in his HUMAN NATURE and thus you have attributed to his HUMAN NATURE the attribute that only the DIVINE NATURE possesses - ETERNAL! If the human nature of Christ is ETERNAL then it is DIVINE in nature because only the DIVINE nature is ETERNAL. So in effect your are perverting the very nature of God.

More slander and misrepresentation, prove it or be found a liar.

Not so! The very essence of your position is the position of Mormonism. They too believe in the preexistence of human nature as God and that it is as eternal as God and then incarnated only into a body of flesh. Your position supports their error completely in regard to your basic tenets. Look at your next statement below and that is exactly what you claim.

The Lord Jesus Christ Preexisted as both God and Man before the world was Created. He was God in His Divinity and He was the Man Mediator Jn 1:1 & 1 Tim 2:5 It was as the Man Mediator He entered into Covenant, the Everlasting Covenant as the Surety for His Seed Chosen in Him !

Can't get it any clearer than what you say above. You are claiming the humanity of Christ is as eternal as God and thus co-existent and co-eternal and of the same kind of substance - spirit - without a body.

More Slander and Misrepresentation, prove it. I believe in the God Head Trinity, prove to us any of those others believe that. This shows me how deceitful and dishonest you are.

You simply don't understand what you are teaching! You are teaching the eternal nature of human nature. You are teaching that the human nature of Christ is ETERNAL and that the elect are inseparably in union with that human nature and therefore they are equally ETERNAL and that both simply take upon themselves a human body - this is the crux of Mormonism. Look at your next statement below as it confirms exactly my critique of your position.

Actually what you are teaching is more in line with Anti Christ, for you are denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh ! Now lets read 1 Jn 4:2-3

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Now, in order for Jesus Christ to come in the flesh, He had to exist as Jesus Christ before coming in the Flesh. And He did, for Paul states unequivocally that All things were Created by who ? Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This is the aposte John writing, the same one who explained what he means by this in John 1:1-14. He does not mean that Jesus Christ preexisted Creation as a HUMAN BEING but as THE WORD and as THE WORD he took upon himself HUMAN NATURE. Is Jesus Christ the preincarnate Word? Yes, but DIVINE only in nature not Human as John plainly states he "became flesh" meaning he became HUMAN in nature by TAKING UPON the Divine Nature Humanity.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

The text says nothing about being the Mediator BEFORE creation - NOTHING!

It says nothing about not being Mediator before Creation. But what it does say, is that There is one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus. The last time I checked, Adam was the beginning of Men on Earth. So Adam had a Mediator between God and Men, That had to be the Man Christ Jesus. In fact, Adam was created after His Image and Likeness ! Rom 5:14 because The Man Christ Jesus was God Man before the Creation. You are in error, and very serious error..

You are teaching the ETERNAL existence of Jesus Christ in his HUMAN NATURE

I am teaching that the Man Christ Jesus existed as the Mediator and Head of the Church before Creation as the scripture teaches it. I am not teaching He existed as flesh and blood at that time, but as a Spiritual and Heavenly Man, The Mediator, and He was God the Word !

Not so! The very essence of your position is the position of Mormonism

More slander , prove it !

You are claiming the humanity of Christ is as eternal as God and thus co-existent and co-eternal and of the same kind of substance - spirit - without a body.

Well, I never said Christ did not have a body in His Preexistence as Man, but it was not a body of flesh and blood, it would have been a celestial body. It would not have been a body of flesh and blood, nor would it had been fit for Him to come and die in. It was a Glorified Body, perhaps the one He had briefly shown at the Mt of Transfiguration. The Man Christ Jesus was the Only begotten of the Father from everlasting, His Deity was not Begotten !

This is the aposte John writing,

I don't need you to tell me who is writing, I already know. Its what He wrote that you should be concerned with. He wrote that those confessing not that Jesus Christ came into the Flesh is a liar and Anti Christ, and guess what ? You are denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. He had to be Jesus Christ prior to coming in the flesh to have come in the flesh. Did He exist as Jesus Christ before His Incarnation ? Yes, For Paul reveals that the world was Created by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This was Part of an unveiling of a Mystery. Something previously unknown ! You have been deceived !

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



It says nothing about not being Mediator before Creation. But what it does say, is that There is one Mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus. The last time I checked, Adam was the beginning of Men on Earth. So Adam had a Mediator between God and Men, That had to be the Man Christ Jesus. In fact, Adam was created after His Image and Likeness ! Rom 5:14 because The Man Christ Jesus was God Man before the Creation. You are in error, and very serious error..



I am teaching that the Man Christ Jesus existed as the Mediator and Head of the Church before Creation as the scripture teaches it. I am not teaching He existed as flesh and blood at that time, but as a Spiritual and Heavenly Man, The Mediator, and He was God the Word !



More slander , prove it !



Well, I never said Christ did not have a body in His Preexistence as Man, but it was not a body of flesh and blood, it would have been a celestial body. It would not have been a body of flesh and blood, nor would it had been fit for Him to come and die in. It was a Glorified Body, perhaps the one He had briefly shown at the Mt of Transfiguration. The Man Christ Jesus was the Only begotten of the Father from everlasting, His Deity was not Begotten !



I don't need you to tell me who is writing, I already know. Its what He wrote that you should be concerned with. He wrote that those confessing not that Jesus Christ came into the Flesh is a liar and Anti Christ, and guess what ? You are denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. He had to be Jesus Christ prior to coming in the flesh to have come in the flesh. Did He exist as Jesus Christ before His Incarnation ? Yes, For Paul reveals that the world was Created by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This was Part of an unveiling of a Mystery. Something previously unknown ! You have been deceived !

John is dealing with early Jewish Gnosticism which taught that Jesus was not the heavenly Christ or the ETERNAL WORD but was merely a man who was controlled by the Christ the ETERNAL WORD. They denied the incarnation of Christ THE ETERNAL WORD in flesh. Gnosticim denied that spirit could have any contact with materialism and a human body was material. They believed Christ the ETERNAL WORD left Jesus at the cross. Thus they denied that Jesus the incarnated man was the heavenly Christ or eternal Word. John places the two words together "Jesus Christ" and claims that anyone denying the incarnation of Christ the Eternal Word is following the spirit of the anti-christ.

This is the error John is refuting. Gnosticism denied Christ ever became human in nature or Jesus in the flesh and thus denied the incarnation. You also deny the incarnation as you reinterpret the incarnation to be nothing more than the transfer of Jesus Christ as the ETERNAL HUMAN BEING taking upon himself nothing more than a flesh and blood body rather than Jesus Christ as the ETERNAL WORD taking upon himself HUMAN NATURE. The words "Jesus Christ" means "Jehovah is salvation" and "The Annointed One." He preexisted as the eternal Jehovah and Jehovah is salvation. He preexisted as the "annointed One" as he was annointed above his fellow Persons of the Godhood to be the redeemer. This preexistent state was as the eternal Word. The incarnation was the Eternal Word or Jesus the Christ taking upon himself the human nature not merely a materialistic aspect of the human nature but the "spirit" and "soul" of human nature.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

John is dealing with early Jewish Gnosticism which taught that Jesus was not the heavenly Christ or the ETERNAL WORD but was merely a man who was controlled by the Christ the ETERNAL WORD

I know what tradition says John was dealing with, however John did not say that was what he was dealing with did he ? Do you have documented proof from John that is the specific teaching he was dealing with ? If you do present it to the view.

Now, even if that was a teaching of that sort, that does not limit Johns Teaching to that particular error. In what wrote, which is documented in scripture, He plainly states that anyone denying that Jesus Christ has came in the flesh is of Antichrist, and you deny it..

Jesus Christ had to exist before coming in the flesh to come in the flesh. Did Jesus Christ exist before creation ? Yes according to Paul as He was revealed the Mystery, He writes that all things were created by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9


9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Now how could all things be created by Jesus Christ if He did not exist ?

Of course I know you are just going to scoff and blaspheme in unbelief, but The Lord Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God spoken of in Prov 8:22

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

The LXX has correctly stated of this verse :

22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.

The Mediator Christ, the wisdom of God was the Firstborn of Creation for the Purpose of God's works of Creation, He would be the Medium of Creation. Thats why it reads that all things are made by [dia] through or by means of Christ !

Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Everything i am presenting is scriptural and all you can do is scoff and ridicule, I will see you at the Judgment.

 

[savedbymercy]

A Family

A Family of children will take on or partake of the nature of their Father or Progenitor, thats why peter writes this in 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

For peter understood now that believers had been born of Two Fathers, First their natural Father which is of corruptible seed [ Adam] and secondly their Spiritual Father, Jesus [ see Isa 9:6] which was incorruptible seed..

For that which is flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit..If the seed was corruptible, then the children will be corruptible [flesh]; If the seed be incorruptible the children will be the same [ see 1 Jn 3:9]

Christ and His People are one. Now many objectors of the Truth of Eternal Election say that only Jesus Christ was the elect of God, which is True, but what they blindly fail to realize is that, the Election of Jesus Christ was actually the Election of His Body, His members , of which He was One with..Heb 2:11

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one:

So the Election of Him was the election of us, for there is no such monster as a bodiless Jesus Christ, because He is the Head of His body the church, that is the fulness of Him that filleth all in all ..[ Eph 1:22,23].. So when these opposer's deny Election except for Jesus Christ, they are actually in contradiction, for they just affirmed what they denied !Oh the confounding of these bitter enemies of the Truth, for the foolishness of God, is much wiser than men.

 

[savedbymercy]

The elect or chosen were given Eternal Life in Christ before the world began, for it was one of the Many Spiritual blessings they were blessed with ..Eph 1:3-4


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is what John meant here 1 Jn 5:11-12


11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Notice, God hath given [ not offered, not made available] us eternal life, and this life is in His Son [ Christ]..

Now, pay close attention, When we are born into this world, it is according to Gods [ not mans freewill] set time [season] and purpose..Ecclesiastes 3:1-2


1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2A time to be born, and a time to die;

And it is evidenced that we had a being or union with Adam in the beginning, which meant, that in Him [ Adam] God had given us physical, earthly life .. Being born into the world [ at Gods time and season for us] did not make us the Natural Sons and Daughters of Adam, that occurred in our original creation in him as his seed or posterity, for it was that which constituted the relationship, and consequently, our being born physically and made manifest.

Basically since we had already been given physical life in Adam, it was only a matter of time that the physical life would be made manifest and become active..


Now the same thing is True by those who have eternal life, who are believing on Jesus Christ, for believing on Him is indicative of having been given eternal life in Him..

Jn 5:24

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus is saying here, He that is hearing my word and believing Gods testimony from Him, has everlasting life..for the implication is, having eternal life dwelling in them at that time, is why they were Hearing Jesus voice or word and believing His testimony that it was From God...

And John writes in His epistle this 1 Jn 5:1

1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:

Again this is saying, believing that Jesus is the Christ, is evidence of having already been born of God..

Believeth here is present tense [now believing ] but is born of God is perfect tense.. Strong's greek describes the perfect tense:

"The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated."

Being born of God was something that happened in the past prior to the believing in the present..so the believing is logically the effect or evidence of the having been born of God...and being born of God and experimentally having eternal life are the same.. The New Birth is the communication of Eternal life to those it was given to in the Son before the foundation of the world..

John teaches this to in His gospel John 1 :12-13


12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those, the as many as received Him, even them that believed on His Name..

vs 13 Had been born of God, thats what caused the effects of vs 12..

And being born of God means one had eternal life communicated to them from above by the Holy Ghost...

 

[savedbymercy]

This life is in His Son

1 Jn 5:11-12

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Just as physical life was in His Son Adam Lk 3:38

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Eternal Life was in His Son Jesus Christ..

And we know that we could not put ourselves in Adam, so likewise, we could not put ourselves in Christ, the Son of God..

You can only had been Chosen in Adam and likewise you can only had been chosen in Christ..

Each subsequent birth we partake of, whether physical and Natural or Heavenly and Spiritual gives proof or evidence that each life had already been given us in that particular head..

As our Natural birth makes manifest a Natural Relationship[Union] we had in Adam at creation, so likewise, our Spiritual Birth makes manifest a spiritual relationship we had in Christ when He was brought forth of the Father before the world began..

The difference between the Vital Union we had with Christ the Son of God and Experimental Union in time.

God is pleased that the elect first experience their vital union with Adam, and then afterward their Eternal Union with Christ is to be experienced, first the Natural, then the Spiritual..

The elect are born physically into the world experimentally estranged from God, enemies in our minds with wicked works, and are by nature like others children of wrath..

But God has a set time to favour each Child of Zion [ see Ps 102:13], to be quickened, made alive, and to be made to enjoy experimentally all the Spiritual blessings He blessed them with, where ? In Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus, When ? before the foundation of the world..

So then all the spiritual advantages we partake of in time, such as regeneration, faith, and fellowship with God through Christ, with the Holy Ghost, other believers, these were all spiritual blessings given us before the world began, by our Union with the Son of God..

He that hath the Son [ by election] hath life, but he that hath not the Son [ non elect] hath not life..but the wrath of God abideth upon them..