No Silverhair, All men are responsible to repent and believe the gospel, they have no excuse. You had just denied the supernatural work of THe Spirit Of God once again, so I would be more concerned with your errant views than what I am doing! Enjoying our interactions!
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Predestination Is God's Identification As The true and Living God
- Thread starter Zaatar71
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
All men are responsible but not under the divine determinism of your calvinist religion. Responsibility requires a free will which what God has given to all mankind.
But I am glad to see that you are starting to come around to the truth. It seems you are starting to understand why calvinism cannot be true.
Remember ZA it is your confessions LBCF/WCF that say God determines all things, not just some things. Determinism is one of the hills your philosophy dies on.
I do note you make many attempts to wiggle out of the self made trap of your philosophy but you have yet to provide any substantive defense of your unbiblical view.
Yes I do enjoy watching those of the C/R try to defend their pagan based philosophy.
It is easy to defend the word of God but very hard for you to defend the words of augustine, calvin and all those other luminaries of the C/R religion.
Silverhair, You cannot begin to mount a biblical case against the doctrines of grace... Look at your posts....Augustine was a manechian gnostic, it is pagan philosophy, blah, blah, blah..... you offer no scripture. You speak of philosophy, but that all comes from those who oppose scripture. You did not answer a basic question! In your world, what exists that God does not control? Do things happen that God does not ordain to come to pass?
Unbelief, Apostasy, Sin, to name a few.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I do note that you do not deny that the basis of your religion is pagan. It is historical fact that you seem to want to ignore.
The problem for you ZA is that you have to provide scripture that supports your view. Your TULIP/DoG do not agree with the word of God.
Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
For God So Loved the World
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
To believe God requires a free will ZA.
God says anyone can be saved by believing so no determinism
Even to reject God requires a free will
Wow that took a long time to dismantle your vaunted TULIP/DoG
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Salvation is the gift of God for those that believe. Again we see free will ZA. And also no determinism.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
I will want for your clear biblical texts that support your TuLIP/DoG. But I will not hold my breath waiting.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
This presents a fair description of calvinist determinism and the logical consequence of it
Calvinists believe that “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.” This is what Calvinists refer to a God’s eternal decree. This means that all things, down to the minutest details, are predetermined to occur as they do by God’s will alone. God is the cause of every historical event in every minute detail, which includes every attitude, belief, desire, decision and action, whether for good or for evil, of both men, angels and demons, as well as their eternal destinies. And all this was predetermined before they were even created or born. Note that this would include the thoughts, attitudes, beliefs, desires and actions of Satan himself. Hence, it is God who causes all things to occur according to His predetermined plan. Things must and will occur as God has predetermined. This is also how the Calvinist defines God’s sovereignty. Divine sovereignty equates to theistic determinism.
goodnewsapologetics.com
Calvinists believe that “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.” This is what Calvinists refer to a God’s eternal decree. This means that all things, down to the minutest details, are predetermined to occur as they do by God’s will alone. God is the cause of every historical event in every minute detail, which includes every attitude, belief, desire, decision and action, whether for good or for evil, of both men, angels and demons, as well as their eternal destinies. And all this was predetermined before they were even created or born. Note that this would include the thoughts, attitudes, beliefs, desires and actions of Satan himself. Hence, it is God who causes all things to occur according to His predetermined plan. Things must and will occur as God has predetermined. This is also how the Calvinist defines God’s sovereignty. Divine sovereignty equates to theistic determinism.
Chapter 8 – Calvinist Attempts to Justify Sovereignty as Theistic Determinism
In the previous chapters I introduced you to the basic tenets of Reformed Calvinism and the various problems those tenets raise. I also touched upon the Calvinist mode of interpretive thought…
goodnewsapologetics.com
God does not deal with these things? God does not know all about these things? The fact that they take place means they were ordained to happen., Do you understand that all these things happen, without God being the cause, Right???
You can note whatever you want, but that does not make it so! Scripture is God breathed, not the product of gnostics!
When you go on anti-cal sites, who hate the truth of God, they come up with these hair-brained schemes which are just make believe versions of reality. When it comes to scripture, flat out, you and others fall short of truth. Sometimes because you have drank from the cup of false teachers, sometimes, it is lack of study. Worse case would be you would be what scriptures refer to as haters of God. You should not be found in that camp. An example of that would be people who say"if God sends people to hell, I could never worship Him". That is a tragic view.
It is odd that you say that. Those who have studied the scriptures find all 66 books as a united whole that teaches that very thing. That is why they hold it. Most any worthwhile writings are by men who hold onto these truths. You and no one else on here can begin to unravel these truths. At best you seek to deflect and evade away from the scripture.
Yes, indeed
Literally...everyone believing, or every believing one...
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. YLT.
Yes, they love the darkness , apart from the Spirit changing them.
No...it requires a new heart given by the Spirit, who brings the spiritual corpse to life, gives a new heart, and enables a saving repentance and reception of scripture, by the Spirit.
Any believing person can be saved. They will only believe by a supernatural work of the Spirit of God. They will never believe apart from that saving work of the Spirit, never!
No..it requires self will which every person has. The default position of sinners dead in Adam, is unbelief. They do not have to choose, they are predisposed to love sin, love darkness, they are haters of the true God, His word, His people!
friend , you will never dismantle the truth of God as it is derived from scripture.
Yes, open confession of Christ only takes place from the foreknown elect, as they are effectually called to be justified, sanctified, glorified.
Yes, Salvation is of the Lord. Jonah knew that!
granted to a multitude of unbelieving sinners, that God translates from darkness to light.Col.1:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
The Calvinist, the Apostle Paul, had no trouble with this at all. And guess what...he was not a Manichaean gnostic, imagine that!I guess you would not get far, with your pagan philosophy excuse would you, lol
No, you might think you see that, but that is an illusion. God makes unwilling, unable sinners, both willing and able, because that is what He determined to do, before the world was.
Yes, the justified elect being spoken of here, which you buddy ben struggled to grasp, I am afraid! read what he tried to say about it!
I will have to start a new thread on that, but I will link a historic confession of faith, that will offer most on the vital texts, as there are in reality too many to just list. The Confession of faith does a good job however; enjoy-
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
God knowing what will happen, foreknowledge is not your calvinist decreed/ordained.
But you seem quite content to have God ordain/decree Unbelief, Apostasy, Sin etc. which is just as your LBCF 1689 stated
"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;"
So according to your LBCF 1689 God is the cause of all these things.
But then they try to escape the logical result of the claim "yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein" Which is a rather illogical statement in light of the prior one.
The calvinist divine determinism has placed you in a trap of your own making.
You have God working against Himself which cannot be.
Mat 12:25 ... "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand."
So since we know that God does not work against Himself we can know that your calvinist divine determinism is wrong.
let me try and help you SH....God knowing all things is His omniscience. Foreknowledge is God knowing the elect before the world was, he set His love on a multitude of sinners. God is not a spectator in our affairs, God is directly in Charge of all things.
Yes, but take the complete statement, do not chop it in half, and try to ascribe a different meaning to it;
Chapter 3 Of God’s Decree 1 God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;
yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness din accomplishing his decree. ( a Isa 46:10; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17; Rom 9:15,18; b Jam 1:13; 1Jo 1:5; c Act 4:27-28; Joh 19:11; d Num 23:19; Eph 1:3-5)
This second half, looks to scripture to give a fuller view of Divine truth.
No, that is not what is believed or taught.. read this part 10-20 times, until you begin to see it!
1] yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin
2] nor hath fellowship with any therein;
3] nor is violence offered to the will of the creature,
4] nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away,
5] but rather established;
6] in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things,
7]and power and faithfulness din accomplishing his decree.
Silverhair, these men spent months going over scripture to see what scripture teaches us. There is a bid difference if you attempt to read and understand all 7 of these parts of the confessional statement, as opposed to trying to read, to mock and scoff. Look at what you posted, then read the full statement, understanding what they meant by every one of these 7 parts!
Your conclusion seeks to avoid these 7 realities . Those who read this post, can see this clearly.
Not at all. That is why you need to balance what is being taught, by reading the complete
"Your confusion here, is that your view and therefore your conclusion is not warranted.
You go wrong, because you conflate false ideas in an attempt to do away with scripture. You will not admit this, but that is what you do everyday on BB.
This seems to happen quite often! Discussion sometimes runs free and crosses over boundaries. to stay on one topic . sometimes becomes hard for us to do.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
God's foreknowledge is not election ZA, there is your first error.
He set His love on all sinners ZA not just a select few, your second error.
God is sovereign and is in charge but He does not have to control all things ZA your third error.
Not doing good there ZA three tries three errors.
I have taken the full statement ZA. That they make a clear statement that "God hath decreed...of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass". If He decreed all things unchangeably what does it matter if they then try to backtrack.
Did God decree all things or not ZA? Since you insist that He did then logically He is the author of all that happens no matter how you try to get yourself off that hook.
I could read it a 100 times and it will not change what they already said. "God hath decreed...of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass"
So unless your have a different meaning for decreed and unchangeably you are stuck on the hook of your own making.
If they had spent less time trying to find verses they thought would support calvinism and more time trusting the word of God they would not have made such obvious blunders.