The True Gospel Preacher

[Ben1445]

Please show me in scripture the phrase “free will choice” to be saved?

I’ll show you “free will choice” when you show me “unconditional election” or “irresistible grace”

Please don’t refer to commands to “chose this day who you will serve”. The entire OT Law is full of commands to chose certain things that no body but Jesus kept.

Because you think that people in the OT were saved by a different way?
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I thought all Scripture was profitable for doctrine. You don’t think so?

That command to choose whom you will serve is not in the Law. It is in the History in the book of Joshua not from the Books of Moses.

God prompted Cain to make the right choice.
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This choice was not given under the law, as if it mattered.

Again, show me from scripture the phrase “free will choice”?

Again show me what I ask for.

Romans 6-7 is a master of doctrinal certainty that human will is enslaved to sin and, therefore, cannot be considered “free”

Peace to you

Slave to sin and freed from sin is not the same as unable to choose and free to choose. I’m not sure how familiar you are with the idea of slavery but some slaves do get away.
They are not given options about staying or going but some still take the option that isn’t there. It is illogical on paper but it still happens. It doesn’t matter whether you agree with it or not.



In the meantime, if you have ears to hear,

Luke 8:18
Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
While this verse talks about the physical healing received, the parallels to spiritual healing are there.
Hebrews 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Luke 8:25
And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Calvinist answer, “You didn’t give it to me yet.”

Acts 2:40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

That would be her choice.

Luke 9:23-24
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Not whosoever God wills lose his life…


Matthew 17:17
Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

Jesus could have answered that for them if you were right. If you were right, they could have rightly said, “You tell us.”


Stop being stingy with the gift of God! freely ye have received, freely give.

 

[David Lamb]

If led by Spirit and in his word. But someone can be saved and not have fruits.

But as Paul wrote to Christians at Ephesus reminding them of their salvation:

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)

 

[KJB1611reader]

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

'unto,' 'should.'

 

[Zaatar71]

You keep believing that Z. Your accusations against God will be dealt with!

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[David Lamb]

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

'unto,' 'should.'

Exactly. We don't contribute to our salvation by our works, but if we are saved, that should show itself in good works.

 

[atpollard]

I’ll show you “free will choice” when you show me “unconditional election”

Unconditional Election:

[Romans 9:10-18 NKJV]
10 And not only [this], but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, [even] by our father Isaac 11 (for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Since some foolishly reject that Paul (and God) are speaking about salvation (eternal life and death) in Romans 9, I offer this additional alternative ...

[Ephesians 2:1-9 NKJV]
1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

1. Note that there is clearly no MERIT in "children of wrath" that it should be a "conditional election" because of some human merit.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. The reason is God's mercy ... not conditioned on any human merit ... the definition of "unconditional".
2. "grace" is defined as unmerited favor ... not conditioned on any human merit ... the definition of "unconditional".
3. God's choice to save is a matter of God's grace ... "unmerited choice" = "unconditional election"
4. In case there was any lingering doubt, God EXPLICITLY states that it is "NOT of yourself" so it is literally "NOT MERITED" (merited means you have a reason to boast).

or “irresistible grace”

Irresistible Grace:

[John 6:44-45 NKJV]
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

1. those drawn by the Father are raised by the Son on the last day ... 100% "them" = "they" ... so 0% resist.
2. "everyone" (100%) that is taught by & learns from the Father comes to the Son ... 100% "everyone comes" = 0% resists.


I am always happy to provide scripture supporting the Truths of Scripture. My personal favorite is the shorthand:

“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE GRACE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION OF SAINTS].” - John 6:44

 

[Ben1445]

Unconditional Election:

[Romans 9:10-18 NKJV]
10 And not only [this], but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, [even] by our father Isaac 11 (for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Since some foolishly reject that Paul (and God) are speaking about salvation (eternal life and death) in Romans 9, I offer this additional alternative ...

[Ephesians 2:1-9 NKJV]
1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

1. Note that there is clearly no MERIT in "children of wrath" that it should be a "conditional election" because of some human merit.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. The reason is God's mercy ... not conditioned on any human merit ... the definition of "unconditional".
2. "grace" is defined as unmerited favor ... not conditioned on any human merit ... the definition of "unconditional".
3. God's choice to save is a matter of God's grace ... "unmerited choice" = "unconditional election"
4. In case there was any lingering doubt, God EXPLICITLY states that it is "NOT of yourself" so it is literally "NOT MERITED" (merited means you have a reason to boast).




Irresistible Grace:

[John 6:44-45 NKJV]
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

1. those drawn by the Father are raised by the Son on the last day ... 100% "them" = "they" ... so 0% resist.
2. "everyone" (100%) that is taught by & learns from the Father comes to the Son ... 100% "everyone comes" = 0% resists.


I am always happy to provide scripture supporting the Truths of Scripture. My personal favorite is the shorthand:

“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE GRACE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION OF SAINTS].” - John 6:44

Your personal shorthand which ignores their unbelief as the reason for the statements made.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

But you still ignore the open invitation that Jesus gave.

Again, I tell you what Jesus told His disciples, freely ye have received, freely give.

Who were we instructed to give to?

Every creature.

At this point, if you really believe that it is all about who God chooses, you don’t know who He chose to save but you know who He chose to hear.

So Calvinists should mind their own business which is declaring the gospel and not determining who it is to.

 

[Layman]

Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I understand Jesus’ statement to be the reason why some believe and others do not. They have to be given to the Son by the Father before they can come to Him.

 

[canadyjd]

@Ben1445 …

You have a habit of demonstrating ignorance of reformed theology ever time you state, “you believe” such and such.

Folks in the OT were saved by grace just as we are. They were chosen for salvation, just as we are. God revealed Himself to them, just as He does to us. They had faith in the promised Messiah, just as we do.

atpollard demonstrated the scriptural foundation of unconditional election and irresistible grace. Please keep your promise to show from scripture the phrase “free will choice”.

Concerning Romans 6-7, you are in error because you don’t understand scripture. Paul’s point in that passage is a person doesn’t “escape” slavery. The slave master rules their lives until they die then gives them to the death master.

Clearly, Paul teaches the sin master is in control of the person. The person does the things they know are wrong. The right thing to do, they are not allowed to do because the sin master controls them.

“The wages of sin is death”. Paul is referring to the common practice of a slave master giving small stipends to the slave that could be used to purchase freedom after many years. The only wages the sin master gives is death.

You truly need to attempt to understand reformed theology before making ignorant claims about what is believed.

Peace to you

 

[37818]

Salvation is only by sole faith in gospel.

Nothing can change that, fruits and change life do not affect.

2 Corinthians 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[JD731]

How will God justify Himself by choosing to send billions to Hell?

Let me guess, He's God and can do whatever He wants!

That's what we call character assassination of God!

What amazes me is that the Calvinist gospel, which differs fundamentally from mine and yours, is not governed by the commands of scriptures like this one;

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

It was a subtle trick to change the meanings of all Bible words while adding some new ones, but it has been very effective to confuse the Christian faith.