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The True Gospel Preacher

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Ben1445

Active Member
Please show me in scripture the phrase “free will choice” to be saved?
I’ll show you “free will choice” when you show me “unconditional election” or “irresistible grace”


Please don’t refer to commands to “chose this day who you will serve”. The entire OT Law is full of commands to chose certain things that no body but Jesus kept.
Because you think that people in the OT were saved by a different way?
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I thought all Scripture was profitable for doctrine. You don’t think so?

That command to choose whom you will serve is not in the Law. It is in the History in the book of Joshua not from the Books of Moses.

God prompted Cain to make the right choice.
Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This choice was not given under the law, as if it mattered.
Again, show me from scripture the phrase “free will choice”?
Again show me what I ask for.
Romans 6-7 is a master of doctrinal certainty that human will is enslaved to sin and, therefore, cannot be considered “free”

Peace to you
Slave to sin and freed from sin is not the same as unable to choose and free to choose. I’m not sure how familiar you are with the idea of slavery but some slaves do get away.
They are not given options about staying or going but some still take the option that isn’t there. It is illogical on paper but it still happens. It doesn’t matter whether you agree with it or not.



In the meantime, if you have ears to hear,

Luke 8:18
Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
While this verse talks about the physical healing received, the parallels to spiritual healing are there.
Hebrews 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Luke 8:25
And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Calvinist answer, “You didn’t give it to me yet.”

Acts 2:40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

That would be her choice.

Luke 9:23-24
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Not whosoever God wills lose his life…


Matthew 17:17
Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

Jesus could have answered that for them if you were right. If you were right, they could have rightly said, “You tell us.”


Stop being stingy with the gift of God! freely ye have received, freely give.
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
If led by Spirit and in his word. But someone can be saved and not have fruits.
But as Paul wrote to Christians at Ephesus reminding them of their salvation:

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)
 

KJB1611reader

Active Member
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

'unto,' 'should.'
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
I’ll show you “free will choice” when you show me “unconditional election”
Unconditional Election:

[Romans 9:10-18 NKJV]
10 And not only [this], but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, [even] by our father Isaac 11 (for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Since some foolishly reject that Paul (and God) are speaking about salvation (eternal life and death) in Romans 9, I offer this additional alternative ...

[Ephesians 2:1-9 NKJV]
1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

1. Note that there is clearly no MERIT in "children of wrath" that it should be a "conditional election" because of some human merit.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. The reason is God's mercy ... not conditioned on any human merit ... the definition of "unconditional".
2. "grace" is defined as unmerited favor ... not conditioned on any human merit ... the definition of "unconditional".
3. God's choice to save is a matter of God's grace ... "unmerited choice" = "unconditional election"
4. In case there was any lingering doubt, God EXPLICITLY states that it is "NOT of yourself" so it is literally "NOT MERITED" (merited means you have a reason to boast).


or “irresistible grace”

Irresistible Grace:

[John 6:44-45 NKJV]
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

1. those drawn by the Father are raised by the Son on the last day ... 100% "them" = "they" ... so 0% resist.
2. "everyone" (100%) that is taught by & learns from the Father comes to the Son ... 100% "everyone comes" = 0% resists.


I am always happy to provide scripture supporting the Truths of Scripture. My personal favorite is the shorthand:

No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE GRACE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION OF SAINTS].” - John 6:44
 

Ben1445

Active Member
Unconditional Election:

[Romans 9:10-18 NKJV]
10 And not only [this], but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, [even] by our father Isaac 11 (for [the children] not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Since some foolishly reject that Paul (and God) are speaking about salvation (eternal life and death) in Romans 9, I offer this additional alternative ...

[Ephesians 2:1-9 NKJV]
1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

1. Note that there is clearly no MERIT in "children of wrath" that it should be a "conditional election" because of some human merit.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

1. The reason is God's mercy ... not conditioned on any human merit ... the definition of "unconditional".
2. "grace" is defined as unmerited favor ... not conditioned on any human merit ... the definition of "unconditional".
3. God's choice to save is a matter of God's grace ... "unmerited choice" = "unconditional election"
4. In case there was any lingering doubt, God EXPLICITLY states that it is "NOT of yourself" so it is literally "NOT MERITED" (merited means you have a reason to boast).




Irresistible Grace:

[John 6:44-45 NKJV]
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

1. those drawn by the Father are raised by the Son on the last day ... 100% "them" = "they" ... so 0% resist.
2. "everyone" (100%) that is taught by & learns from the Father comes to the Son ... 100% "everyone comes" = 0% resists.


I am always happy to provide scripture supporting the Truths of Scripture. My personal favorite is the shorthand:

No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE GRACE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION OF SAINTS].” - John 6:44
Your personal shorthand which ignores their unbelief as the reason for the statements made.

John 6:64-65
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

But you still ignore the open invitation that Jesus gave.

Again, I tell you what Jesus told His disciples, freely ye have received, freely give.

Who were we instructed to give to?

Every creature.

At this point, if you really believe that it is all about who God chooses, you don’t know who He chose to save but you know who He chose to hear.

So Calvinists should mind their own business which is declaring the gospel and not determining who it is to.
 

Layman

New Member
Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

I understand Jesus’ statement to be the reason why some believe and others do not. They have to be given to the Son by the Father before they can come to Him.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
@Ben1445

You have a habit of demonstrating ignorance of reformed theology ever time you state, “you believe” such and such.

Folks in the OT were saved by grace just as we are. They were chosen for salvation, just as we are. God revealed Himself to them, just as He does to us. They had faith in the promised Messiah, just as we do.

atpollard demonstrated the scriptural foundation of unconditional election and irresistible grace. Please keep your promise to show from scripture the phrase “free will choice”.

Concerning Romans 6-7, you are in error because you don’t understand scripture. Paul’s point in that passage is a person doesn’t “escape” slavery. The slave master rules their lives until they die then gives them to the death master.

Clearly, Paul teaches the sin master is in control of the person. The person does the things they know are wrong. The right thing to do, they are not allowed to do because the sin master controls them.

“The wages of sin is death”. Paul is referring to the common practice of a slave master giving small stipends to the slave that could be used to purchase freedom after many years. The only wages the sin master gives is death.

You truly need to attempt to understand reformed theology before making ignorant claims about what is believed.

Peace to you
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
How will God justify Himself by choosing to send billions to Hell?

Let me guess, He's God and can do whatever He wants!

That's what we call character assassination of God!

What amazes me is that the Calvinist gospel, which differs fundamentally from mine and yours, is not governed by the commands of scriptures like this one;

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

It was a subtle trick to change the meanings of all Bible words while adding some new ones, but it has been very effective to confuse the Christian faith.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Your personal shorthand which ignores their unbelief as the reason for the statements made.
Everyone rejects belief ... otherwise God would not need to DRAW. An "invite" would have been enough.

Luke 14:16-24 [NKJV]
16 Then He said to him, "A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, 17 "and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, 'Come, for all things are now ready.' 18 "But they all with one [accord] began to make excuses. The first said to him, 'I have bought a piece of ground, and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.' 19 "And another said, 'I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you to have me excused.' 20 "Still another said, 'I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.' 21 "So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here [the] poor and [the] maimed and [the] lame and [the] blind.' 22 "And the servant said, 'Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.' 23 "Then the master said to the servant, 'Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 'For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.' "

v.17-18: Those "invited" ... "all began to make excuses" and NONE of them came. God invited and man refused.
("There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." - Romans 3:11-12)

v.21: No more invite ... "bring [them] in here" ... that is a DRAW necessitated by the rejection of an invitation.

v.23: Since God is not satisfied with those that will allow themselves to be "brought" (like Philip and Andrew), God chooses to "compel them to come in" (like Matthew and Paul).

I do not ignore their unbelief, you underestimate it.

"... but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." - John 3:18-20

"And you, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." - Ephesians 2:1-3
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Everyone rejects belief ... otherwise God would not need to DRAW. An "invite" would have been enough.

Luke 14:16-24 [NKJV]
16 Then He said to him, "A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, 17 "and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, 'Come, for all things are now ready.' 18 "But they all with one [accord] began to make excuses. The first said to him, 'I have bought a piece of ground, and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.' 19 "And another said, 'I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you to have me excused.' 20 "Still another said, 'I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.' 21 "So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here [the] poor and [the] maimed and [the] lame and [the] blind.' 22 "And the servant said, 'Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.' 23 "Then the master said to the servant, 'Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 'For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.' "

v.17-18: Those "invited" ... "all began to make excuses" and NONE of them came. God invited and man refused.
("There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." - Romans 3:11-12)

v.21: No more invite ... "bring [them] in here" ... that is a DRAW necessitated by the rejection of an invitation.

v.23: Since God is not satisfied with those that will allow themselves to be "brought" (like Philip and Andrew), God chooses to "compel them to come in" (like Matthew and Paul).

I do not ignore their unbelief, you underestimate it.

"... but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." - John 3:18-20

"And you, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." - Ephesians 2:1-3

Most of us free-willers see the "Draw" as the spreading of the Gospel. the Holy Spirit acts on the given Gospel to the individual and draws man, penetrating the heart and soul with truth. Then we see man having a choice to accept or reject that draw.

How exactly do you see the "Draw" taking place?
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
So Calvinists should mind their own business which is declaring the gospel and not determining who it is to.
1 Peter 3:15 [NKJV] But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always [be] ready to [give] a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Sola Scriptura

("Scripture alone"): The Bible is the ultimate authority for Christian faith and practice, not the Church, tradition, or human reason.

Sola Gratia
("Grace alone"): Salvation is a gift from God, not something earned through human effort or merit.

Sola Fide
("Faith alone"): We are justified (declared righteous in God's sight) by faith in Jesus Christ alone, not by works.

Solus Christus
("Christ alone"): Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator between God and humanity, and salvation is found only through him.

Soli Deo Gloria
("To God alone be the glory"): All of life should be lived for the glory and honor of God.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
I understand Jesus’ statement to be the reason why some believe and others do not. They have to be given to the Son by the Father before they can come to Him.
So Jesus effectively told the disciples to go preach the gospel and lie to almost everyone, compelling them to come in.
That is the truth of the parable. Go out and compel them to come in. Every creature? That is who we are sent to. When I go, I don’t carry a lie or false invitation.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Most of us free-willers see the "Draw" as the spreading of the Gospel. the Holy Spirit acts on the given Gospel to the individual and draws man, penetrating the heart and soul with truth. Then we see man having a choice to accept or reject that draw.

How exactly do you see the "Draw" taking place?
Often like this:

Acts 16:14 [KJV]
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.


Sometimes like this:

Act 22:6-10 [NIV]
"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' " 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. " 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. " 'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. " 'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.'


And God can even draw like this:

2 Timmothy 1:5-6[NIV]
I am reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also. For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.


The important part is
1. It is GOD.
2. He is the one DRAWING.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
@Ben1445

You have a habit of demonstrating ignorance of reformed theology ever time you state, “you believe” such and such.
You are the one who told me OT didn’t apply. I believed that you meant what you said.
Folks in the OT were saved by grace just as we are. They were chosen for salvation, just as we are. God revealed Himself to them, just as He does to us. They had faith in the promised Messiah, just as we do.
Israel was chosen as a nation. Believers are people who respond to the invitation of God to follow Him and obey Him.
atpollard demonstrated the scriptural foundation of unconditional election and irresistible grace. Please keep your promise to show from scripture the phrase “free will choice”.
He did not quote me the exact words which is why I will not quote you exact words.
I already gave Scripture calling people to decide. He rejected some Scripture calling for people to follow God before I even gave it to him.
“Ye do always resist”
Why should I repeat it?
Concerning Romans 6-7, you are in error because you don’t understand scripture. Paul’s point in that passage is a person doesn’t “escape” slavery. The slave master rules their lives until they die then gives them to the death master.
Would you mind quoting me on my Romans 6-7 “error?” I don’t know exactly what you are talking about.
Clearly, Paul teaches the sin master is in control of the person. The person does the things they know are wrong. The right thing to do, they are not allowed to do because the sin master controls them.
I lost the context of your statement without you actually quoting me.

“The wages of sin is death”. Paul is referring to the common practice of a slave master giving small stipends to the slave that could be used to purchase freedom after many years. The only wages the sin master gives is death.

You truly need to attempt to understand reformed theology before making ignorant claims about what is believed.

Peace to you
I don’t mean to say that you all believe in all the conclusions of reformed theology. To me, it is the hyper Calvinist (which all here so far have claimed not to be) who is honest about what he believes. He understands the results of the statements about Scripture that he makes. He actually believes what he says.
All you “not hypers” can’t accept the reality of what you teach.

Jesus never instructed the disciples to go preach the gospel of some. He told them to preach the gospel to all. In this, Calvinism preaches its own gospel that is not given to them to preach or teach.
Jesus is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Reformed says that there need to be words added to that to make the doctrine accurate. I think God said what He meant to and does not need reformed theologians to correct Him.
I believe what God said, not what you say.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Often like this:

Acts 16:14 [KJV]
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.


Sometimes like this:

Act 22:6-10 [NIV]
"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' " 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. " 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. " 'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. " 'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.'


And God can even draw like this:

2 Timmothy 1:5-6[NIV]
I am reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also. For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.


The important part is
1. It is GOD.
2. He is the one DRAWING.

Do you think Lydia's heart could have been opened if she had rejected the Gospel Paul preached?

We see this as Lydia with a positive response to what Paul said, and the Lord granted her permission to "attend to the things which were spoken of Paul." In other words, she gave her heart to Christ as she believed what Paul had said.
 

Ben1445

Active Member
1 Peter 3:15 [NKJV] But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always [be] ready to [give] a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Sola Scriptura

("Scripture alone"): The Bible is the ultimate authority for Christian faith and practice, not the Church, tradition, or human reason.

Sola Gratia
("Grace alone"): Salvation is a gift from God, not something earned through human effort or merit.

Sola Fide
("Faith alone"): We are justified (declared righteous in God's sight) by faith in Jesus Christ alone, not by works.

Solus Christus
("Christ alone"): Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator between God and humanity, and salvation is found only through him.

Soli Deo Gloria
("To God alone be the glory"): All of life should be lived for the glory and honor of God.
Those things as stated, without Reformed theology corollaries are statements agreeable to Scripture.

Somebody keeps adding the Sola Conffesio.
 
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