Imprecatory Prayers - Your View?

[Marcia]

I think something has been posted here before about this pastor. Is the First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park, CA, a real So. Baptist church? Does anyone know?

Also, what do you think of imprecatory prayer?

An alleged So. Baptist pastor told the press he is praying for Obama to die. He said this is an imprecatory prayer and therefore, it's biblical. He said an imprecatory prayer is just agreeing with God (although how he knows God wants Obama to die, I don't know).

A former Southern Baptist Convention officer who on June 2 called the death of abortion provider George Tiller an answer to prayer said later in the day he is also praying "imprecatory prayer" against President Obama.

Wiley Drake, pastor of First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park, Calif., and former running mate of American Independent Party presidential candidate Alan Keyes, said June 2 on Fox News Radio he didn't understand why people were upset with his comments quoted by Associated Baptist Press from a webcast of his daily radio talk show.


"Imprecatory prayer is agreeing with God, and if people don't like that, they need to talk to God," Drake told syndicated talk-show host Alan Colmes. "God said it, I didn't. I was just agreeing with God."


Asked if there are others for whom Drake is praying "imprecatory prayer," Drake hesitated before answering that there are several. "The usurper that is in the White House is one, B. Hussein Obama," he said.


Later in the interview, Colmes returned to Drake's answer to make sure he heard him right.


"Are you praying for his death?" Colmes asked.


"Yes," Drake replied.


"So you're praying for the death of the president of the United States?"
"Yes."


.....Sing Oldham, vice president for convention relations with the SBC Executive Committee, was unavailable for comment until late on May 4.


He said that while Drake served one year as second vice president of the SBC, he is not now nor has ever been a spokesman for the convention.


....Oldham said most Baptists view the imprecatory prayers found in the Psalms as private, heartfelt conversations between oppressed people and God, and reflect confidence that God will eventually vindicate the innocent. He said they generally close with a conscious decision not to bear malice and leave final judgment up to God.

Link
http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4126&Itemid=53

 

[gb93433]

I think something has been posted here before about this pastor. Is the First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park, CA, a real So. Baptist church? Does anyone know?

Also, what do you think of imprecatory prayer?

It does not matter what anyone think about the topic so much as what is that man doing to make disciples.

www.sbc.net has the following information about the church he pastors. It is in Buena Park, CA which is a very heavily populated area.

Year Founded: 1950
Total Members: 100
Average Attendance: 60

If a church in that heavily of a populated area does not have more than 60 regular attenders then I would wonder about their evangelism and discipleship. He needs to get out of his chair and wear out some shoes knocking on doors.

I am getting older and my memory is not quite as good as it once was but I unable to think of anything like that kind of prayer in the OT or NT.

The guy is nothing more than an empty bag http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_5_125/ai_n24920246/

"An empty bag makes the most noise."

 

[Magnetic Poles]

This is not one iota different than those who think they practice black magic. It is essentially putting a curse on someone.

 

[donnA]

a heavily populated area and he has an attendance of 60, it says a lot there.
I wonder just where and when did God say that. Did God say it to him, or what, because theres nothing in the bible like this.
I don't like obama, not one bit, but I also don't like someone wanting our president dead either, and then to go on and abuse prayer like that.

 

[gb93433]

a heavily populated area and he has an attendance of 60, it says a lot there.

Many of the SBC churches in that part of the country were started by transplants from the south who were in the military and they have done little or nothing to reach local people. Those which made an effort to reach local people have done much better. Rick Warren's church is SBC.

 

[Baptist Believer]

I think something has been posted here before about this pastor. Is the First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park, CA, a real So. Baptist church? Does anyone know?

If I recall correctly, Wiley Drake was elected to 2nd Vice President of the SBC a couple of years ago (essentially an honorary position) and he took the role a bit too seriously. He printed up letterhead and business cards and started presuming to speak for the SBC to the media (something that flies in the face of SBC polity) and the leadership had to do damage control.

While I'm not fan of the SBC leadership, as far as I know, Drake's views do not represent the views of the SBC leadership, much less the views of the mainstream churches of the SBC.

Drake is part of a wingnut faction of the SBC and has been an embarrassment to the SBC and many of us former SBC folks.

While I believe there is a very limited place for imprecatory prayer, Jesus clearly taught that seeking the destruction of those we consider our enemies is completely contrary to life in the Kingdom of God (see Luke 9:52-56).

 

[Scarlett O.]

The man is wrong.

The imprecatory prayers and psalms of David cannot be compared to our prayers and hymns today....

....well, at least not literally. David was praying as the annointed leader of a God's nation whose enemies were primarily political. He was asking God to battle the enemies of Israel, God's nation and his personal life-threatening enemies, for him.

The church is not a political entity. We do not don literal armor and fight literal and bloody battles with presidents and kings and other nations. We battle but one enemy. Satan.

If we wish to ask God to help us fight the battle of the flesh and to lead us in conquering satanic attacks of abortion, sexual immorality, etc..... .......that's fine.

If he truly perceives President Obama to be an enemy of the church, then he and his church should be on their knees praying for Obama's salvation, personal safety, and submission to God's Wisdom.

He needs to read the words of Jesus in Luke chapter 6.

Love for Enemies



27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

 

[canadyjd]

Also, what do you think of imprecatory prayer?

Luke 9:52 "and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. (53) And they did not receive Him, because He was jorneying with His face toward Jersusalem. (54) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?' (55) But he turned and rebuked them, and said 'You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; (56) for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'" (emphasis mine)

Christians are of a different spirit than those of the O.T. We are to love men and forgive, just as the Father has forgiven us in Christ.

It is shameful for a professing Christian to pray for the death of someone.

peace to youraying:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Luke 9:52 "and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. (53) And they did not receive Him, because He was jorneying with His face toward Jersusalem. (54) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?' (55) But he turned and rebuked them, and said 'You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; (56) for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'" (emphasis mine)

Christians are of a different spirit than those of the O.T. We are to love men and forgive, just as the Father has forgiven us in Christ.

It is shameful for a professing Christian to pray for the death of someone.

peace to youraying:

:applause: Very well stated, and an excellent reference verse. Well done!

 

[gb93433]

Luke 9:52 "and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. (53) And they did not receive Him, because He was jorneying with His face toward Jersusalem. (54) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?' (55) But he turned and rebuked them, and said 'You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; (56) for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.'" (emphasis mine)

Christians are of a different spirit than those of the O.T. We are to love men and forgive, just as the Father has forgiven us in Christ.

It is shameful for a professing Christian to pray for the death of someone.

peace to youraying:

It also shows the extent of that pastor's knowledge of the Bible. He should have been openly rebuked.

 

[Tom Butler]

.

It is shameful for a professing Christian to pray for the death of someone.

I agree. But is it wrong to pray against someone like, say Amadinajab of Iran. Osama bin Laden--that God would stop their evil, even if it means taking them out?

Of course, pray that God would bring them to repentance and faith in Jesus. Pray that God would soften their hearts. But can't we pray against their evil ways, and against them as evil people, knowing that if God stops them, it may mean he kills them?

 

[DHK]

It does not matter what anyone think about the topic so much as what is that man doing to make disciples.

You have a very narrow focus. Not everything in the Bible is about making disciples.
When Moses crossed the Red Sea it wasn't about making disciples, but rather showing the power and might of God, and demonstrating to the Israelites how they could trust in Him.

Marcia asked this question:
Also, what do you think of imprecatory prayer?

Making disciples has nothing to do with her question.

An imprecatory psalm was often the psalmist expressing his already known judgment of God upon the nation in question. He already knew the will of God that had been revealed to him, and is expressing that will in the form of a prayer. It is God's judgment.

 

[annsni]

I agree. But is it wrong to pray against someone like, say Amadinajab of Iran. Osama bin Laden--that God would stop their evil, even if it means taking them out?

Of course, pray that God would bring them to repentance and faith in Jesus. Pray that God would soften their hearts. But can't we pray against their evil ways, and against them as evil people, knowing that if God stops them, it may mean he kills them?

There is a big difference between asking God to stop an evil deed in whatever way He wills and asking God to kill someone.

I would pray for ANYONE including Osama bin Laden and others that they would have their hearts open to God and His Word, and that they would no longer pursue evil but pursue God.

 

[Tom Butler]

There is a big difference between asking God to stop an evil deed in whatever way He wills and asking God to kill someone.

I would pray for ANYONE including Osama bin Laden and others that they would have their hearts open to God and His Word, and that they would no longer pursue evil but pursue God.

So we're agreed. But I have to admit that I find it difficult sometimes to pray for the enemies of God. In my heart, I really do want God to get after them. To beat up on them. I know that I should pray for God to save them, and I do because it's the right thing to do.

But does anybody else here sometimes hope God will unleash his vengeance instead of his mercy?

 

[canadyjd]

I agree. But is it wrong to pray against someone like, say Amadinajab of Iran. Osama bin Laden--that God would stop their evil, even if it means taking them out?

I don't recall any verses of scripture, especially N.T. verses addressed to Christians, that call for us to pray "against" someone, or to ask God to "take them out" if He has to.

Of course, pray that God would bring them to repentance and faith in Jesus. Pray that God would soften their hearts. But can't we pray against their evil ways, and against them as evil people, knowing that if God stops them, it may mean he kills them?

My response, in all sincerity and Christian love, is to ask you to consider yourself, prior to your salvation.

Do you believe God would have approved of someone praying, in the name of Jesus Christ, that He would convert you, and if not, then "take you out", so you wouldn't do any more evil deeds?

I thank God for His mercy. Knowing my own enslavement to sin, I know that Amadinajab and Osama bin Laden are acting according to their nature. The antidote is not death (that will come at whatever time God has appointed in His sovereignty), but grace and mercy.

I don't believe it necessary to ask God to stop evil men, since I am confident God doesn't need me to remind Him when He has had enough of their evil.

What I do believe God desires of all of us, as Christians, is a humble and contrite heart, full of compassion and love even for the worst of sinners, just as He demonstrated with the murderer, Paul, and even as He has demonstrated with each of us, knowing that we once stood where the "evil ones" now stand...separated from God, enemies of God, without love and without understanding.

Anything less, IMHO, simply demonstrates a lack of appreciation of the seriousness our own sins (especially those we continue to commit) and what Christ did for us on the cross.

peace to youraying:

 

[annsni]

So we're agreed. But I have to admit that I find it difficult sometimes to pray for the enemies of God. In my heart, I really do want God to get after them. To beat up on them. I know that I should pray for God to save them, and I do because it's the right thing to do.

But does anybody else here sometimes hope God will unleash his vengeance instead of his mercy?

Oh my stars - absolutely. But that's why I'm not in charge.

My grandparents were divorced way back when divorce was NOT acceptable (my grandfather had another family on the side). He was a man who was NOT good to her at all and he caused her a lot of pain. Even after she was saved, she still felt a lot of hatred in her heart for him. My mother led him to the Lord a few years before she died and I'll never forget my grandmother finding out and being SO angry. "You mean that ...... is going to heaven too????" She did eventually get over that but it certainly reflects this topic.

But what a testimony to God's grace that He can save anyone - especially one who we say is so "evil". God does big things - and that would just be one more proof for us as humans.

 

[Tom Butler]

Ann and canadyjd, thank you for your insights. You are both right, of course. When Jesus said pray for those who despitefully use you, he didn't leave much wiggle room, did he? And we are all sinners deserving of God's justice.

Your comments have convicted me, even though I confess that on occasion I have prayed like David: "Break their teeth, oh God."

 

[gb93433]

You have a very narrow focus. Not everything in the Bible is about making disciples.

The what is a follower of Jesus Christ called?

 

[Baptist Believer]

You have a very narrow focus. Not everything in the Bible is about making disciples.
When Moses crossed the Red Sea it wasn't about making disciples, but rather showing the power and might of God, and demonstrating to the Israelites how they could trust in Him.

Certainly not every single thing in scripture is about making disciples, but most of the story of scripture is about how God is calling us to realign our lives in light of His reality... and that's discipleship.

Even the example you use of God demonstrating His power to the Children of Israel in the exodus from Egypt is a clear picture of teaching those people how to be disciples (those who trust in God).

 

[DHK]

Certainly not every single thing in scripture is about making disciples, but most of the story of scripture is about how God is calling us to realign our lives in light of His reality... and that's discipleship.

Even the example you use of God demonstrating His power to the Children of Israel in the exodus from Egypt is a clear picture of teaching those people how to be disciples (those who trust in God).

The title of the thread: "Imprecatory Prayers--Your View?

An Example of an Imprecatory Prayer:

Psalms 109:1-20 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise; ... Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places. Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour. Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth. Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart. As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him. As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually. Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul.

What has this to do with the discipleship?
Not everything in the Bible has to do with discipleship.
To bring in discipleship at this point was an attempt to do one of two things:
1. To avoid answering Marcia's question, or
2. an attempt to derail the thread.

Keep the thread on topic.