Harold Garvey
New Member
We're too programmed to understand the program needs reprogramming: God's reprogramming!:thumbsup:
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Imprecatory Prayers - Your View?
- Thread starter Marcia
- Start date
Is that kinda like the pastor who preaches at his wife and children?
You are exactly right!!Your post reminds me of the time a PGA golfer told me that most of the time a golfer has problems it can be traced back to the basics.
I can show you many, and already have. You haven't read my posts? Did Stephen pray? Do you know about David Brainerd, missionary to the North American Indians? He prayed long hours, sometimes in sub-zero weather, outside in a snow bank, for the power of God to rest upon him. He had to overcome a language barrier in order to reach the native people of this nation. God used him in a mighty way, but he didn't build great churches.
You assume too much. Having a ministry does not equate with numbers. Discipleship is not bribery, giving out bubble gum and candy and door prizes in order to build up the numbers of one's church. It is sad that you seem to have that "numbers" philosophy in your head.
He started with 12 and left the work of evangelization this entire world in the hands of just 11 men. He had no back up plan. The Great Commission was given to just 11 men. Those eleven men were to go and make disciples of all the world, baptizing them and teaching them all things that Christ had commanded them. 11 men and that is all.
According to you Jesus failed. He didn't reach 60. His work was too small. A "church" of only 11 surely must be a failure in your eyes.
Is that the way you think? Is everyone just a number to you? That is the way the corporate world thinks.
Practice what you preach. I don't think you do. If one person discipled one person in one month, and both of those discipled two more in the next month, and the four of those discipled four more in the next month, etc., then this world, the entire world populace would be won to Christ in three years, or about 34 months. If you truly have been practicing what you have been preaching why hasn't the world been won to Christ? The reality is that most of the world hasn't even heard the gospel message even once.
Good. Go and do thou likewise.
And many have made none. Are you going to condemn them also. Have you ever heard of the Boxer Rebellon? Do you know what happened to missionaries during that time?
God blessed him with fruit after seven years of labor, and seeing none. William Carey sent his son to the same nation. He was martyred. I suppose he was a failure in your sight.
I read what the Bible says. I don't read into the Bible, what I would prefer it to say. The Bible doesn't say that Stephen had triplets and he baptized them all as infants. You can't read what is not there. The record shows that he preached and he died. That is all.
Don't assume what I know and don't know. Your ideas have come from the Navigators. I was involved with them for some time. It was because of their New Evangelical teaching that I was not baptized or a member of a church for two years after I was saved. They are a para-church organization that actually works against the local church. Some of their teaching is very good, but when an organization pits themselves against the local church they are wrong.
My question is why did the SBC elect this man to any kind of leadership position, whether it be largely ceremonial or not? He was elected in 2006 and had previously done a number of other very questionable things. What does this say about the SBC and its current leadership?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiley_Drake
He gained national prominence in 2006, serving a one-year term as the second vice president of the 42,000-church Southern Baptist Convention.
So Jesus did not have numbers which represent the souls of men? Does God’s word lies when it says the harvest is plentiful?
Did you fail to read what I wrote in an earlier post?
Who did He start with?
If you would also read John you would also know what he said about the things others would do who follow Him. Have not read the book of Acts to know what the early church did and what happened?
It would do you some good to read what Spuregon said on Mt. 4:19 about being fishers of men. Where did you get such ignorance about those who are successful in the corporate world?
The problem is that you do not think and you really do not know.
If you thought about what you wrote you would not make such foolish statements such as what you have just written. It is obvious at your lack of knowledge and experience to make such statements.
Do you actually know where the church is growing the fastest in the world today?
I do not have to assume anything. You make it obvious.
Have you ever read the Bible? Have you ever read the book Training of the Twelve by A.B. Bruce? Ever notice in the Bible how Jesus trained his disciples? Perhaps you should take some time and consider how Jesus trained the 11. When I was a part of the organization as a student nobody ever gave me a Bible study to lead. I started one on my own by winning people to Christ. Even while I was in the organization I began to lead a children's program at the church that had been failing. I started by teaching them from the Bible to pray, share their faith, and make disciples. The leader of the Navigators where I live now is heavily involved in the same church I go to and has been asked to preach a few times. He is involved in the church making disciples.
I have never in my life heard of such teaching. I am not even familiar with the term. I know nothing about your leader but I do know that there are duds everywhere just as there are Mormons preaching in Baptist churches and pedophiles in Baptist churches. Does that make them all the same and everyone of them bad.
Could you name me five of them who are against the church so I can personally talk with them? I was involved with them for seven years and at the same time leading in church programs at the same time and never once saw that. In fact the leader I was under required all the leaders to be involved in at least one thing in the church. I had a great relationship with the pastor. The pastor met with all of the leaders of all the parachurch organizations in an effort to reach students. In fact it was the parachurch organizations that were responsible for teaching the church congregation how to make disciples. The leaders were asked by the pastor and elders to be involved in training the congregation to do discipleship.
Isn't it amazing that so many mission organizations like people who have been involved with them because of their discipline and doctrine? One of my roommates was in a mission organization for about 25 years planting underground churches in a communist country where it was illegal to meet with more than 4 unrelated people in a home. I planted churches and pastored church and never found my raining to be a hindrance but rather a great help to myself and others I disciple.
When I pastored some churches the singles and couples who had been in any parachurch organization never once ever worked against me. I liked having them in the church. I wanted more of them. I was always glad when someone came and wanted to work doing evangelism and making disciples.
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Harold Garvey
New Member
yeah, sure, and what about everybody else Noah preached to?
I'm starting to think you just like to be the center of contention.
Marcia
Active Member
David was writing those words under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and those prayers became part of God's word. When we pray today, we are not praying words that go into the Bible.
T
I never said they did. I didn't even bring this up so I'm not sure why you are.
I agree.
Marcia
Active Member
I've always heard this but can't find it. Where is it?
I did find this:
Many believe this passage is about Christ preaching through Noah to those who were later destroyed in the flood (please no discussions on this thread about this passage! I post it only in response to the question of Noah preaching).
I asked the same question earlier. I am waiting for an answer as well.
I agree. My question is did Jesus ever pray for God to strike strike down the Pharisees? Did He ever pray that the heavy yoke of Roman bondage be taken away from His people? My prayer would have been that this man be given an opportunity to repent of his great sins and accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior before he died. That opportunity was taken away by his murderer.
I think it points to the emphasis of the SBC today which is not the same as it once was. If one goes back in time and takes a look at the kind of men who were in leadership then he would find men who were not only sound theologically but whom others recognized as godly men and supported them. If one takes a look at what the SBC did in terms of church planting, etc, in the past it was astounding.
It was not too long ago that the church took a stance against "investing" in the stock market. A few days ago I read some older documents which cited being involved in the stock market as a just reason for excommunicating someone. Now we have entire church organiozations involved in the stock market.
When I see churches involved in investing and making money it cause me to think about what lies ahead and it is seldom more ministry but a death or troubles ahead.
I would wonder how people see your point and how it fit in with the death penalty and in particular the lady who claimed to be a Christian and doing ministry who was executed in Texas a few years ago.
My larger belief is that while abortion is horrendous, it does not represent the whole teaching about how we are to respect human life. The larger picture is called the Sanctity of Life. This perspective instructs us that ALL human life is precious to God. In my view, this includes those who lose their lives in war both combatants and innocents and those who are executed by the state (capital punishment).
In my experience most professing Christians disagree with this perspective and claim that the Bible supports both war and capital punishment. The only major religious group that supported the Iraq war was the SBC. All others came out against it as unjust and an unnecessary taking of human life.
Jesus said:
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Tom Butler
New Member
You had to be there. Wiley Drake is known as a maverick in SBC circles. He comes to the convention armed with a bunch of resolutions to offer, few of which ever make it to a vote.
He was nominated by a Western Kentucky pastor named Bill Dotson, whom I know. Dr. Dotson also marches to his own drummer. But I tell you, the nominating speech was slap-dab funny. It had the messengers holding their sides. It sort of pictured Bro. Drake as quirky but harmless, and that was it. He was elected.
So his election says nothing about the current SBC leadership, and it really says nothing about the convention itself.
Read the Psalms to see different..... chapter 55 comes to mind.
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I agree that is says nothing about the leadership, but I do think it demonstrates that the convention tends to vote based on emotion rather than fact. It may have something to do with crowd psychology based on the great numbers of people gathered in one place.
At every annual convention I attended, a number of very important votes seemed to be contingent on emotion and/or fear, not on clear thinking.
And to those who believe I'm just trying to slam the SBC, I've also seen that some sort of thing (although not to the same degree) in convention meetings of the Baptist General Convention of Texas. The major difference seems to be that the BGCT meetings are smaller than the SBC.
Harold Garvey
New Member
So you're asking for specifics? How much more specific can the Bible be when only eight were saved? Are you saying they were saved by the water and not saved from the same wrath as others were saved, but the depraved were destroyed with those other saved souls who didn't get privileged individual staus as Noah and his family?
You'd best interpret scripture with scripture and apply sound wisdom and understand the precepts and principles taught by the context of scripture, else you'll have others believing in baptismal regeneration.
These eight souls were saved from wrath by the water, they still had to receive Christ's Blood Atonement to be saved by grace. They were saved by obedience, but not obedience to the Gospel of Christ, they were saved from wrath by obedience to the truth that God would soon destroy mankind with the Flood.
If you, or anyone else canot see this, I can't help you from here.
Harold Garvey
New Member
But what about those who have crossed God's deadline of being saved and are reprobate? I think maybe you forgot this. Also you may be forgetting God knows peoples hearts and who will respond accordingly and who will reject the truth. I didn't say God planned it all that way, but certainly He knows who will respond and when.