Personally, I think Jesus went to the Father to pour His blood on the mercy seat of heaven as was done in the tabernacle on earth, which was a picture or foreshadow of the true tabernacle (made without hands) in heaven.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Arguments for a Post Trib. Rap.
- Thread starter stilllearning
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I believe that Hebrews 9:11-18 supports your opinion. Whether the passage means literal blood or is speaking metaphorically I can't say. Nevertheless the sacrifice of Jesus Christ obtained our eternal salvation and ushered in the New Covenant.
11. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Amy
John Gill says of Verse 12:
Ver. 12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, &c.] With which the high priest entered into the holy place, within the vail, on the day of atonement, Le 16:14,15 for Christ was not an high priest of the order of Aaron, nor could the blood of these creatures take away sin, nor would God accept of such sacrifices any longer:
but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place; which shows the truth of his human nature, and the virtue of its blood, as in union with his divine Person; by which he opened the way into the holiest of all, as the surety of his people, and gives them boldness and liberty to follow him there; he carried his blood not in a basin, as the high priest carried the blood of goats and calves, but in his veins; and by it, having been shed by him, he entered not into the holy place made with hands, but into heaven itself; and that not every year, as the high priest, but "once" for all, having done his work; or as follows,
having obtained eternal redemption; for us, from sin, Satan, the law, and death, to which his people were in bondage, and which he obtained by paying a ransom price for them; which was not corruptible things, as silver and gold but his precious, blood: in the original text it is, "having found eternal redemption"; there seems to be an allusion to Job 33:24. This was what was sought for long ago by the, Old Testament saints, who were wishing, waiting, and longing for this salvation; it is a thing very precious and difficult to find; it is to be had nowhere but in Christ, and when found in him, is matter of great joy to sensible sinners; God found it in him, and found him to be a proper person to effect it; and Christ has found it by being the author of it: this is called an eternal redemption, because it extends to the saints in all ages; backwards and forwards; it includes eternal life and happiness; and such as are sharers in it shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; it is so called in opposition to the carnal expiations of the high priests, and in distinction from temporal redemptions, deliverances, and salvations.
John Gill says of Verse 12:
Ver. 12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, &c.] With which the high priest entered into the holy place, within the vail, on the day of atonement, Le 16:14,15 for Christ was not an high priest of the order of Aaron, nor could the blood of these creatures take away sin, nor would God accept of such sacrifices any longer:
but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place; which shows the truth of his human nature, and the virtue of its blood, as in union with his divine Person; by which he opened the way into the holiest of all, as the surety of his people, and gives them boldness and liberty to follow him there; he carried his blood not in a basin, as the high priest carried the blood of goats and calves, but in his veins; and by it, having been shed by him, he entered not into the holy place made with hands, but into heaven itself; and that not every year, as the high priest, but "once" for all, having done his work; or as follows,
having obtained eternal redemption; for us, from sin, Satan, the law, and death, to which his people were in bondage, and which he obtained by paying a ransom price for them; which was not corruptible things, as silver and gold but his precious, blood: in the original text it is, "having found eternal redemption"; there seems to be an allusion to Job 33:24. This was what was sought for long ago by the, Old Testament saints, who were wishing, waiting, and longing for this salvation; it is a thing very precious and difficult to find; it is to be had nowhere but in Christ, and when found in him, is matter of great joy to sensible sinners; God found it in him, and found him to be a proper person to effect it; and Christ has found it by being the author of it: this is called an eternal redemption, because it extends to the saints in all ages; backwards and forwards; it includes eternal life and happiness; and such as are sharers in it shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; it is so called in opposition to the carnal expiations of the high priests, and in distinction from temporal redemptions, deliverances, and salvations.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That speaks well of you Amy. Of course you realize that he was an ardent advocate of the Doctrines of Grace [Calvinism to some.].
A bit of information. John Gill was one of the most learned men of his day. He wrote a commentary on every verse of Scripture containing some ten million words and that with a quill pen.
saturneptune
New Member
I remember in my early 20s, I read a lot of Hal Lindsey books, and thought it was the only answer to the end times. Once I read the Scripture, there is no definitive proof, only opinions. One thing that made me doubt the pre trib theory is a verse in Matthew where Jesus tells us that no man knows the day or hour of His return. Now, if we are raptured on Janurary 1, 2010, and that ushers in the Tribulation/Great Tribulation for a precise seven year period, as the story goes, then, if I was unsaved and left here, then I think I would have sense enough to know exactly when Jesus was returning. For those that say the verse refers to the day and hour of the rapture, then that is not really a return, is it.
Another ridiculous analogy I have heard is Noah took the eight out of the flood, symbolizes the rapture. No, if it symbolizes anything, it shows us how God gets us through the Tribulation.
OR, I appreciate your views on this and dispinationalism, as it makes for an unchanging God and harmony through the whole Bible.
Another ridiculous analogy I have heard is Noah took the eight out of the flood, symbolizes the rapture. No, if it symbolizes anything, it shows us how God gets us through the Tribulation.
OR, I appreciate your views on this and dispinationalism, as it makes for an unchanging God and harmony through the whole Bible.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Thanks SN. I really appreciate your comments.
Tom Butler
New Member
Got a question. Or ten.
The common description of the 144,000 is that they were
1. Sealed
2. Virgins
3. The Father's name written on their foreheads
4. They sang before the throne
4. They were redeemed from the earth
5. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.
Are they in heaven or on earth?
Where does it say they are flaming Jewish evangelists?
Where does it say that they prophesy?
Is this a symbolic number?
Why is Dan left off the list, and Manasseh included?
Why Manasseh and not Ephraim, his brother.
The common description of the 144,000 is that they were
1. Sealed
2. Virgins
3. The Father's name written on their foreheads
4. They sang before the throne
4. They were redeemed from the earth
5. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.
Are they in heaven or on earth?
Where does it say they are flaming Jewish evangelists?
Where does it say that they prophesy?
Is this a symbolic number?
Why is Dan left off the list, and Manasseh included?
Why Manasseh and not Ephraim, his brother.
stilllearning
Active Member
Hello saturneptune
I have never read Hal Lindsey’s books, and I am kind of glad that I haven’t.
You said.........
(There are a lot of variables, that would continue to keep the day or the hour, unknown
One of which would be, the Bible doesn’t say that the 7 year tribulation period, has to start immediately following the Rapture.
--------------------------------------------------
And as for that seven year tribulation period;
You refer to it as.......
The fact is, that nowhere in Scripture, will you find the words, “seven year tribulation period”.
But we know for sure, that the tribulation will last seven years, because we study the Bible and realize that the tribulation period, has nothing at all to do with the Church; It has to do the Jews.
In Daniel 9:, we learn that God is going to allow the Jews, to be persecuted, for 70 weeks of years, and that those Jews that survive, will come to there senses and get right with God. (A week of years, is 7 years.) We also learn in that chapter, that something earthshattering, is going to happen at the end of the 69th week of years.
Today we can look back through history, and see that it was precisely at the end of the 69th week of years, that our Lord was rejected by His people, and crucified, and buried and resurrected. And that the 70th week of years, hasn’t happened yet.
For about 2000 years, the Jews(for the most part), have been blinded to the truth about Jesus, but their Spiritual blindness will be lifted, during that last week of years.
The 7 year tribulation period, is that 70th week of years, and it has nothing at all to do with the Church at all. During that 7 years, the Jews are going to be persecuted and turn back to God, and as we see in Revelation, God is going to take care of them during the rest of the tribulation.
--------------------------------------------------
You also mentioned........
If you want to see the where the Church is in that analogy, see the previous chapter:
Where Enoch was raptured, before the flood came.
Genesis 5:21-24
V.21 ¶ And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
V.22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
V.23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
V.24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.
--------------------------------------------------
When you take, what the entire Bible has to say, you realize that the rapture and the 7 year tribulation period, are not just some concocted story, that has been made up by somebody; But it is the truth.
But the way; God has woven the truth in His Word in such a way; No unsaved person during the tribulation, is going to be able to see it.
I have never read Hal Lindsey’s books, and I am kind of glad that I haven’t.
You said.........
I understand what you are saying, but that is why the Lord said....”the day or the hour”;
(There are a lot of variables, that would continue to keep the day or the hour, unknown
One of which would be, the Bible doesn’t say that the 7 year tribulation period, has to start immediately following the Rapture.
--------------------------------------------------
And as for that seven year tribulation period;
You refer to it as.......
The fact is, that nowhere in Scripture, will you find the words, “seven year tribulation period”.
But we know for sure, that the tribulation will last seven years, because we study the Bible and realize that the tribulation period, has nothing at all to do with the Church; It has to do the Jews.
In Daniel 9:, we learn that God is going to allow the Jews, to be persecuted, for 70 weeks of years, and that those Jews that survive, will come to there senses and get right with God. (A week of years, is 7 years.) We also learn in that chapter, that something earthshattering, is going to happen at the end of the 69th week of years.
Today we can look back through history, and see that it was precisely at the end of the 69th week of years, that our Lord was rejected by His people, and crucified, and buried and resurrected. And that the 70th week of years, hasn’t happened yet.
For about 2000 years, the Jews(for the most part), have been blinded to the truth about Jesus, but their Spiritual blindness will be lifted, during that last week of years.
The 7 year tribulation period, is that 70th week of years, and it has nothing at all to do with the Church at all. During that 7 years, the Jews are going to be persecuted and turn back to God, and as we see in Revelation, God is going to take care of them during the rest of the tribulation.
--------------------------------------------------
You also mentioned........
You are half right; Yes it does symbleize the tribulation period; but it is not showing how God will take care of us, through the Tribulation, but how He will take care of the Jews, during the tribulation.
If you want to see the where the Church is in that analogy, see the previous chapter:
Where Enoch was raptured, before the flood came.
Genesis 5:21-24
V.21 ¶ And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
V.22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
V.23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
V.24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.
--------------------------------------------------
When you take, what the entire Bible has to say, you realize that the rapture and the 7 year tribulation period, are not just some concocted story, that has been made up by somebody; But it is the truth.
But the way; God has woven the truth in His Word in such a way; No unsaved person during the tribulation, is going to be able to see it.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are contradicting yourself. You say: The fact is, that nowhere in Scripture, will you find the words, “seven year tribulation period”. Then you immediately say: "But we know for sure, that the tribulation will last seven years". That is absolute nonsense.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
As a matter of interest whose interpretation, or should I say mythology, of Daniel 9 did you use to arrive at that fantastic definite "seven year tribulation" when you say: The fact is, that nowhere in Scripture, will you find the words, “seven year tribulation period”.
stilllearning
Active Member
Hello OldRegular
You said.........
For you, to call my statement “nonsense”, is like calling “3.5 + 3.5 = 7", an error.
You said.........
For you, to call my statement “nonsense”, is like calling “3.5 + 3.5 = 7", an error.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
This is not a forum on elementary arithmetic. Where did you get the nonsense about Daniel?
stilllearning
Active Member
Hello again OldRegular
You really seem to be bothered by my statement, that God is able to nail down the fact, that the tribulation will last seven years, without actually saying the words “seven years”.
The LORD has done this in several ways, throughout the Bible.
One of those ways, is by saying “a week of years”, instead of saying “seven years”.
--------------------------------------------------
You asked.........
--------------------------------------------------
In Daniel 9:, we see that Daniel was studying the book of Jeremiah, and found the prophecy of 70 years:
Daniel 9:2
“In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.”
i.e That the Jews would be in captivity for 70 years.
--------------------------------------------------
With this observation, Daniel fell on his face before God from verses 3-19, because he knew that his people had not yet learned their lesson, and were as wicked as they were when the captivity started.
--------------------------------------------------
Then the LORD answers his prayer, by sending him a message.........
Daniel 9:24-27
V.24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
V.25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
V.26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
V.27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
--------------------------------------------------
Here the LORD is explaining to Daniel, the deeper meaning of the “70 year prophecy”, that he had read in Jeremiah.
That 70 years, is actually 70 weeks of years.
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city”
God was going to keep the Jews in bondage, for 490 years, before they would repent!
“to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity”
Also, in verse 24, God tells Daniel about the completion of the revelation of His Word to man.......
“and to seal up the vision and prophecy” (A canonized Bible)
And the Lord’s millennial reign.......
“and to anoint the most Holy”
--------------------------------------------------
Then in verse 25, the LORD explains all that will happen, between the 69 & 70 week of years.......
“from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:”
By the way, “seven weeks” + “threescore and two weeks” = 69 weeks, of years.
And here is what God told Daniel would happen, between the 69th and 70th week....
Christ would be rejected by His people........
“shall Messiah be cut off”
But it would be for our benefit.........
“but not for himself:”
And the Romans will destroy Jerusalem........
“and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary”
(The prince{small cap “p”}, being the anti-Christ.
And this prince, will sign a 7 year peace treaty with Israel.........
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week”
But in after 3 ½ year, he will double cross them.......
“and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
-------------------------
By the way; Today, we are still between the 69th and 70th week;
(The Church will be taken out of this world, before the 70th week starts.)
You really seem to be bothered by my statement, that God is able to nail down the fact, that the tribulation will last seven years, without actually saying the words “seven years”.
The LORD has done this in several ways, throughout the Bible.
One of those ways, is by saying “a week of years”, instead of saying “seven years”.
--------------------------------------------------
You asked.........
Well here we go........
--------------------------------------------------
In Daniel 9:, we see that Daniel was studying the book of Jeremiah, and found the prophecy of 70 years:
Daniel 9:2
“In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.”
i.e That the Jews would be in captivity for 70 years.
--------------------------------------------------
With this observation, Daniel fell on his face before God from verses 3-19, because he knew that his people had not yet learned their lesson, and were as wicked as they were when the captivity started.
--------------------------------------------------
Then the LORD answers his prayer, by sending him a message.........
Daniel 9:24-27
V.24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
V.25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
V.26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
V.27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
--------------------------------------------------
Here the LORD is explaining to Daniel, the deeper meaning of the “70 year prophecy”, that he had read in Jeremiah.
That 70 years, is actually 70 weeks of years.
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city”
God was going to keep the Jews in bondage, for 490 years, before they would repent!
“to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity”
Also, in verse 24, God tells Daniel about the completion of the revelation of His Word to man.......
“and to seal up the vision and prophecy” (A canonized Bible)
And the Lord’s millennial reign.......
“and to anoint the most Holy”
--------------------------------------------------
Then in verse 25, the LORD explains all that will happen, between the 69 & 70 week of years.......
“from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:”
By the way, “seven weeks” + “threescore and two weeks” = 69 weeks, of years.
And here is what God told Daniel would happen, between the 69th and 70th week....
Christ would be rejected by His people........
“shall Messiah be cut off”
But it would be for our benefit.........
“but not for himself:”
And the Romans will destroy Jerusalem........
“and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary”
(The prince{small cap “p”}, being the anti-Christ.
And this prince, will sign a 7 year peace treaty with Israel.........
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week”
But in after 3 ½ year, he will double cross them.......
“and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
-------------------------
By the way; Today, we are still between the 69th and 70th week;
(The Church will be taken out of this world, before the 70th week starts.)
Last edited by a moderator:
How is that a contradiction? The bible leaves clues for people to nut out in their brain, as stilllearning has shown very clearly. You call it nonsense, what a joke.
Darren
I agree, with one exceptions.
If I tell you I'm coming to you house to "STAY FOR ONE WEEK",
how long would I be at your house,
One week or a "half week???
shall confirm for one week,
The AC does make a treaty, but for how long shall it be "Confirmed",
one week or half week??
And who was invited, and does attend the lamb's marraige supper, and who rejected the invitation and doesn't attend??
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
“And he (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many (rapture church) for one week”. (trib period)
Interesting, good point. I haven't thought of that.
You are saying the "HE" (Jesus) confirmed the week covenant (with the church) and HE (Jesus) caused the sacrifice, obligations of the AC to cease (mid week or 3 1/2 years into the reign of the AC) - "..and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”
Darren
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Just where in Scripture do you find that nonsense. It is not there so it had to come from some dispensational writer or preacher. That is what I initially asked.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So both you and stillearning are jokes? Your so-called doctrine is.