Ccm

"Flawless accuracy." That's rich.

 

CCM, for quite some years now, has been one of the fastest growing genres of music. It is sold in secular stores all over North America. Go to most stores and you will find a considerable section devoted to CCM. The world buys it: not necessarily for the words, for which they don't really care, but for the music. Most don't understand the words anyway. In most CCM the music is dominant over the melody, the opposite of which the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that the melody must always be dominant. In fact history makes a good argument that the early church did not even have musical instruments. Even if they did, the melody was far emphasized over the music. But that is not true of today's CCM. And that is why it has "worldly-appeal."

I have seen many, in fact most.

That is where most Christians look. That is not to say that most secular music stores don't have them; they do. A music store exists to make money. CCM is selling, and it sells to the world.
Here is an example. "Christians" especially teens, tell me that U2 is a "Christian" band--CCM of course. Let me find some information for you.

The bolded is mine, and I suppose it is that description that makes them "Christian."
But in the same article, it also says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U2

Not the quote of a Christian, nor the activity of a Christian.

I am not talking about the odd cd along mixed along with some classical cds. Yes, that occasionally happens since the old hymns are often confused as "classical" music by the world. I wonder why?

You brought into this discussion the hippie movement. The beatles were at the beginning of the hippie movement, John Lennon especially. What happens when a Muslim gets saved? He leaves Islam. A Hindu when he gets saved leaves Hinduism. And a hippie when he gets saved leaves the hippie movement gets his life cleaned up, and starts living like a Christian, not like a hippie.
God is a God of order, not of chaos. Hippies live chaotic lives contrary to Biblical teaching. If they get saved they will leave that movement. They will have nothing to do with it. They will also take the admonition from 2Cor.6:14:-17 and separate themselves from it.

All the more to separate from such a movement when a person does get converted.
The Jesus people that came out of the hippie movement did just that. [/quote]
No, they stayed in that same world, kept their own rebellious culture which had founded a type of rebellious music, an anti-authoritarian music. This music they took with them. They didn't separate from it.

The words may have lifted up Christ--though for the most part it was very shallow. But the music was the same--the same worldly music that they were playing before, that anti-authoritarian music. They didn't obey 2Cor.6:14-17 in the area of music.

A continuance of anti-authoritarian, ungodly, rebellious music to this day. Some shallow lyrics about Jesus are put to them and they are called CCM, and a Christian stamp is put on it. Pitiful!

 

Alright, Musicman, what is music?

 

1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony
2 a : an agreeable sound : euphony <her voice was music to my ears> b : musical quality <the music of verse>
3 : a musical accompaniment <a play set to music>
4 : the score of a musical composition set down on paper
5 : a distinctive type or category of music <there is a music for everybody — Eric Salzman>

 

DHK....

You posted...

But not primarily. CCM is primarily sold to CHRISTIANS. In case you havent noticed, most lost people do not enjoy clean, wholesome, christian music...which is what CCM is. They want the music that is centered on sex, lust, crime, etc. Thats why they DONT buy CCM in mass numbers.

Christians buy CCM...not lost people.

No, they dont, DHK. Christians buy CCM...not the lost. The lost want their sex and lust music...not music about Jesus.

DHK, CCM is literally OVERFLOWING with melody! The singing is all MELODIC! The instrumental solos are MELODIC! The verses and choruses are filled with MELODY!

Have you ever read the Psalms, DHK? Filled with musical instruments! Playing Melody!

Yes, it IS true of todays CCM. Its very true.

DHK, you are now making the same blunder that you did when you brought up George Harrison

George Harrison was NEVER one of the converted hippies who started what is now known as CCM. Likewise, U2 has NEVER been a CCM band. The guy leading that group has never testified of a conversion to Christ, resulting in a new form of Christ centered music.

They are a secular band who have incorporated a sort of "Do Goodism" mentality to their band. That does not make them a "Christian" band.

Those teens you referred to are greatly mistaken.

And thats EXACTLY...*PRECISELY*...what the "Jesus people" who came out of the hippie culture did, and that is continueing today in the CCM genre of music.

((((THEY DID!!)))

((((THEY DID)))), DHK! And people are still doing that today.

I happen to be one of them.

Except that the ARENT anti-authority anymore. They are now blood bought, redeemed children of God.

They did precisely what 2 Cor: 14-17 says to do. And they are still heeding that admonition today

In your mind.

But NOT in *reality*, DHK.

 

Still waiting for an answer from A in C.

 

Aaron, do you mind making a response based off my answer?

 

What you quoted him as saying didn't contradict that, so you are side-stepping. That's the attitude one is to have, but at the same time, the one who is weak is to have a legitimate cause (not simply that anything new is bad, or only our established culture is good), and most people fighting against contemporary music are not complaining about migraines. Not all of it is even louder than anything else.

That is not what it teaches; that is just somone's interpretation of a scripture mentioning "melody". Taking the word out of the verse, and building an entire command around it from from out of nowhere.

But your side has never proven that the "traditional" music was really what God comissioned, and that to set it aside is to reject authority. It was the defacto "church music" of the established generations, and when it was new, the older churches said some of the same things about it.

A lot of the old music as played in churches was done like military or funeral marches. (and this is what is being projected onto God's "order"!) Why was this forced on everyobody as if it came down directly from Heaven? It certainly wasn't the Biblical style!

So there was no classical music outside the Church? Of course there was. This debate is paralleled by an old 30's Looney Tune about a young owl who wants to sing jazz, and his conservative father wants him to sing some old dirge "Drink To Me Only With thine Eyes", which sounds like it came right out of an old church. (even down to the "King James" English!) And let's not forget the Christian songs adopted from drinking songs. Yes, "bar tunes" may have been misunderstood in Luther's context, but there were other instances where actual drinking songs were adopted.

The problem here is that "culture" was "Christian" back then, so the line between sacred and secular is blurred. So it ends up that anything that old culture did was OK, and modern culture is resented for "turning" from that. But culture was secular back then, and as far as it's Christianity; much of that was nominal. Like Catholic countries, that are religious, but that are not really following God, except for those trying to count on religion. We forget this when upholding past culture. And much of it was that same Catholic culture, or equally nominal mainline Protestant. Those "Trail of Blood" groups of yours did not have any sort of influence over culture to the extent as would be required to shape the classical music. All of that stemmed from a nominal Catholic, or Protestant culture. Why is that culture so much better than today? the only difference today is that we have electronic media broadcasting the sin everywhere instantly, making it look "worse" that it was in the past. But that sin was always there in man, since Adam.

 

This argument has been used before. It is urban myth and has never been documented or proven.

Your appeal to culture is bogus.
CCM's appeal (if appealing to culture) can only go back to the 60's at its farthest point--the time of the Beatles. That is where I would consider where "rock" basically started as a genre, and CCM well after that. Even going back that far it is only 50 years ago.

Some of our hymns date as far back as Luther, as the general time that the KJV was translated, and many in the 18 and 19th centuries.
When you seriously talk about culture you must throw the argument out the window. You can't compare a period of 50 years to a period of 400 years. Our culture changes with each generation. Surely you hear of the baby-boomers, generation X, etc., And each generation seems to have its own "culture." In a four-hundred year period, when many of our hymns were written, there were many cultures, not just one. It just wasn't "that KJV period." Depending on how you classify the ages: politically by a nation--the Victorian age, etc., or by world events: dark ages, reformation, etc. No matter which way you do it, 400 years embraced many different cultures all having similar hymns--all having similar hymns up until the latter part of the 20th century.

I believe history stands against you.

 

Eric...

Of course they were. We all know that, but some will no doubt find that to be a very *inconvenient* truth, so....

Be prepared for 1 or 2 of these dear ones come come on here and present their fairy tales about that not being true.

 

Once it's clear that AnC has bailed, I'll be happy to respond to your post.

 

It was documented, but I can't find it at the moment.
What had happened is that people used Luther's mention of "bar tunes", and that turned out to mean the musical definition of "bar". And I was the one who posted that admission here. However, there were other sources where it was clearly "tavern" tunes or something. I think regarding Wesley or something, but this was a long time ago, and I forgot.

Still, your claim was that "the world" back then had no classical music (only the Church did), and that you have not answered.

And again, you miss the point. You're the one who said the "world" did not have classical music. The only way you can do that is to include the entire civilization of medieval Europe, as "Christian" culture, as some have done. So then even the music produced outside of the Church is said to still be "Christian".
This is not about dividing it up into what you're calling "many different cultures" (a tactic I find at least one anti-CCM book used; like calling "Baroque" and "Romantic" different "styles" from different "cultures"). It's your side that has set it up as "rock" (and every other related modern style) against "good music"; exemplied by default by the hymns, which do reflect an overall culture of family of subcultures, if you will, (or basically, civilization)of Christian Europe. God is not confined to that one civilization. They do not set His standard, nor did they do a better job than everyone else, of "preserving" it. The music of the Bible reflected the mideastern background it arose from.
What changed over the generations is that our culture expanded beyond just the classic European styles, and those favoring the old styles associate them with God, via the notion of "Christian culture".

 

I apply the same Biblical principle in my decision to not make an issue out of a musical style. Although, as I previously stated, I do not particularly like having CCM in the sanctuary, if making an issue out of this causes my brother to offend, I don't make an issue out of it.

It works both ways.

 

Our music is rather varied and reflects our congregation. Often we use grand and glorious hymns, it might be more classical, or sometimes the music might have an island feel to it, or it could be more Chris Tomlin type CCM or a song could be closer to Spiritual. It varies song to song, Sunday to Sunday. Interestingly, what makes a Christian song a Christian song are the actual words of the song, not the style of music.

 

DHK...

You said previously...

Here are the lyrics to just a few of the "Anti-authoritarian", "rebellious", "Ungodly music, with "shallow" lyrics that you object to.

And these few examples are not the exception, DHK. Not in the least.

These are the norm for the vast majority of CCM and Contemporary praise and worship.

Here ya go....

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Pray
Rebecca St James


Jesus I am broken now
Before you I fall I lay me down
All I want is you, my all

I cry out from the ashes
Burned with sin and shame
I ask you Lord to make me whole again

For you say if I will come and will
Pray for you
There's forgiveness when I
Turn from me and pray
For you say if I will come and will
Pray to you
You hear me and heal me when I pray

Your ways are not my own
But I long for them to be
So this what I pray
One with you you'll make me

Melt me away 'til only you remain

Jesus I am broken now before you
Take me I am yours


------------------------------------------------------------

Make me an instrument.
Ragamuffin Band

Lord make me an instrument of Your peace
Where there's hatred let me show love
And where there is injury, pardon And where there is doubt, then faith
And where there's despair, then hope

It's in dying that I will be born And in giving that I will receive
In loving that I will be loved
This is my faith It is what I believe Lord make me an instrument

Lord I am a stranger traveling In a brutal yet wondrous land Far from the promise of home
On a journey led by your hand To where the lion lies down
With the lamb Father grant that I'd never seek To be comforted as to console

Let the blood of Your Son cover me
Touching my spirit Seizing my soul Lord make me an instrument

Let Your divine mystery guide my heart Christ within me
Christ before me, Christ behind me, Christ above me, Christ beneath me.

To my left and my right Christ where I lie And where I arise Christ in the hearts of all who think of me

Christ on the lips of all who speak of me

Christ in the eyes of all who see me

Make me Your instrument Lord

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Salvation Belongs To Our God
Crystal Lewis


Salvation belongs to our God
Who sits upon the throne
And unto the lamb
Be praise and glory
Wisdom and thanks
Honor and power and strength

Be to our God
Forever and ever
Be to our God
Forever and ever
Be to our God
Forever and ever, amen

And we the redeemed shall be strong
In purpose, and unity
Declaring aloud
Praise and glory
Wisdom and thanks
Honor and power and strength

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Saving Grace
Point of Grace


She had her father's blue eyes
He left home before she arrived
Mama named her grace
Just getting by on their own
When Grace was 15 she ran from home
One December day
Grace is lost and alone in a world as cold as stone
God is counting on us to reach hear with his love

It's all about saving grace
All about living love
Being Jesus to those he came to save
Sharing life and giving our own away
It's all about serving God
All about...

She'd never darken the door of any church
She would say, "What for...no one there would care for me"
We have to go where she lives
Simply show her who Jesus is
Watch Him set her free
For grace flows down from above and faith requires a selfless love
For a world that's dying to see the hope in you in me

There are countless millions just like Grace
Who need a merciful embrace
They won't believe our God is real
Until they feel His touch

--------------------------------------------------------


Now, DHK (and you too, Aaron), if you actually find those wonderfull lyrics objectionable, and "ungodly", and "shallow" and you find them to be the work of "aint-authoritarian" ex hippies who care nothing about following Christ, and "coming out" of the old life and being "seperate" unto Christ....then I honesly feel very VERY sorry for you.

Sorry that your rigid form of hyper-fundamentalism has rendered you unable to see and appreciate beauty, truth, and depth of feeling...simply because it isint packaged exactly the way you are used to.

Grace and peace.

 

Oh, by the way: What chords are unredeemable? What tempo? What time signature? What method of sycompation? What mix of instruments? What key signature? Is fortissimo unredeemable? How about a subato emphasis? Sforzando?

Is the oboe unredeemable? The hurdy-gurdy? Bagpipes? Is a Fender Stratocaster? Or just the "flying V" model?

See what happens when you pile on the extra-biblical regulations? You end up with an old-fashioned mess.

 

That's a definition based on music theory. It doesn't touch on the nature or meaning of music.

Music is a form of human, nonverbal communication. It is the nonverbal communication of mood and feeling with the use of sounds that have specific harmonic relationships. It doesn't merely tell one the mood and feeling of the composer, but it creates that mood and feeling in the listener.

Music is an act. It doesn't exist without a listener, whether that listener is the performer himself or someone else.

Music is human interaction. Only men (among earthly beings) can compose music, and its ultimate meaning is the effect that it has on the listener.

Music is a form of human behavior and thought.

Music is judged on its appeal, not on its theoretical constructs.

 

I think music theory is pretty important.

I would say it has both verbal and nonverbal elements if it has lyrics. And, yes, it does use sound with specific harmonic relationships. I'll also agree that it can be used to express the whole range of human emotions, which is a good thing.

It doesn't necessarily need a listener, for example, it can exist on paper. It can even exist only in theory.

 

None of this can be said about light bulbs or buildings. Church musicians and high school band leaders are not authorities on music.

 

And so I we are to assume that you are the authority?