Where Does Believing Faith Come From

[webdog]

I am SORRY, that you don't like the fact that God is in Control. He is in control of your life, He gets what He wants, and their is nothing you can do about it. Ha Ha.

Sovereign doesn't mean controlling. He's in control (sovereign). God also doesn't want me to sin, so if He "gets what He wants", why do I sin?

 

[Havensdad]

You know you are not correct, but that is your problem, not mine.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is this verse speaking of all men? No. It is speaking only of those who do get saved, and shows that that they were drawn.

But is John 12:32 speaking of all men? Yes.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So, John 6:44 is only speaking of saved people, whereas John 12:32 is speaking of all men whether saved or not.

But if you want to convince yourself that you do not understand the difference, that is your choice.

If you want to continue to deny God's Sovereignty, despite the clear teaching of scripture, have at it. But the verses say nothing of the kind.

John 12:32 is speaking of "all". If it does indeed refer to people, then it should be translated with the normal way of translating this phrase: "all people groups"; i.e. not just the Jews.

John 6 is referring to who it is will actually be saved. It is very specific: those who are drawn, will be raised (And, not maybe). This is the normal, natural way to read the sentence. If I say something is "Black and white", that doesn't mean it is Black, and "maybe" white. It is a direct correlative statement: those who are drawn, are saved.

I know that you do not like that. I know you want man to be sovereign rather than God, so you deny the clear teaching of scripture. I am very sorry for you.

 

[Havensdad]

Sovereign doesn't mean controlling. He's in control (sovereign). God also doesn't want me to sin, so if He "gets what He wants", why do I sin?

Actually, NOTHING can happen that God doesn't want.

Tell me, was God incapable of making men that had a strong moral Character, who were Holy and would never sin, just like himself?

You might say, "then they would not have free will!" But I might say, that if you say that, you are DENYING that God Himself has free will. For God Himself CANNOT sin, the scriptures say. So you are trying to give man a freedom of the Will, which even God himself does not have, and saying "IF we are not more free than God, we are Robots!" But that is a silly argument...

God is not a Robot.

 

[webdog]

If you want to continue to deny God's Sovereignty, despite the clear teaching of scripture, have at it. But the verses say nothing of the kind.

John 12:32 is speaking of "all". If it does indeed refer to people, then it should be translated with the normal way of translating this phrase: "all people groups"; i.e. not just the Jews.

John 6 is referring to who it is will actually be saved. It is very specific: those who are drawn, will be raised (And, not maybe). This is the normal, natural way to read the sentence. If I say something is "Black and white", that doesn't mean it is Black, and "maybe" white. It is a direct correlative statement: those who are drawn, are saved.

I know that you do not like that. I know you want man to be sovereign rather than God, so you deny the clear teaching of scripture. I am very sorry for you.

The "all people groups" has a qualifier...men. I know you do not like that. I know you want God to determine everything, including sin, so you deny the clear teaching of Scripture. I am sory for you.

The last sentence was done to show just how we don't get anywhere when you resort to the ad hominem. Why does your camp always resort to this same tired garbage?

 

[Havensdad]

The "all people groups" has a qualifier...men. I know you do not like that. I know you want God to determine everything, including sin, so you deny the clear teaching of Scripture. I am sory for you.

The last sentence was done to show just how we don't get anywhere when you resort to the ad hominem. Why does your camp always resort to this same tired garbage?

Um, Webdog, did you happen to read what I was responding to? I am really trying to be civil: But I am afraid Winman does not have the same desire. I said what I said, for the same reason that YOU said what YOU just did:

My last sentence was done to show how we don't get anywhere when we resort to ad hominem attacks. So you need to talk to Winman. I was not accusing anyone of anything. Winman, who is on "your side" of the issue, is the one continually bresorting to ad hominem attacks.

 

[webdog]

Actually, NOTHING can happen that God doesn't want.

Tell me, was God incapable of making men that had a strong moral Character, who were Holy and would never sin, just like himself?

You might say, "then they would not have free will!" But I might say, that if you say that, you are DENYING that God Himself has free will. For God Himself CANNOT sin, the scriptures say. So you are trying to give man a freedom of the Will, which even God himself does not have, and saying "IF we are not more free than God, we are Robots!" But that is a silly argument...

God is not a Robot.

So God wants me to sin?!? Why do you get to state what free will consists of and what God can and cannot do? How is this promoting God's complete sovereignty?

 

[Havensdad]

And actually, "men" is not in the verse. It is added by the translators, and could refer to individuals, mankind, people groups, or it could even be generic, meaning all things. And like I said, it does not state WHY they are drawn, OR the result of that drawing. The passage in John 6, makes it clear the result of the drawing is salvation.

 

[Havensdad]

So God wants me to sin?!? Why do you get to state what free will consists of and what God can and cannot do? How is this promoting God's complete sovereignty?

Are you saying that God does not have free will?

 

[Winman]

If you want to continue to deny God's Sovereignty, despite the clear teaching of scripture, have at it. But the verses say nothing of the kind.

I do not deny God's sovereignty, although I do deny what YOU define as God's sovereignty.

If God chooses to give people a choice to believe or not of their own free will, then it is not me that is denying God's sovereignty but you.

The Bible shows clearly that men can do things on their own.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Here the scriptures show these people sacrificed their children to false gods. And the Lord said he never commanded it, or spake it, neither came it into his mind.

So, this shows men acting independently of God.

It is shown again.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

It also did not come into God's heart.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

I believe in God's sovereignty, but not as you understand it. The scriptures show God has given man a free will and that man can act independently of God.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

I don't know how it gets any clearer than this, God says if men desire to offer a burnt sacrifice, then they shall offer of their "own voluntary will". I have no difficulty understanding what this means.

And Jesus showed men can disobey God's will.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Just because a person says they are a Christian does not mean they are. Only those who do the will of the Father shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, logically those who do not enter heaven are those who do not obey the will of the Father.

So, this idea that God controls every little detail is not scriptural whatsoever.

 

[Havensdad]

Winman,

Does God have free will?

 

[Winman]

Winman,

Does God have free will?

Yes.

Matt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Now, I'll tell you, this is a difficult verse to understand. But when Jesus prayed to his Father he first asked that if possible, let this cup pass from him. I believe he was speaking of going to the cross, becoming sin for us, and being separated from his Father. For death in spiritual terms is being separated from the Father. That is why Jesus cried out, "why hast thou forsaken me?" on the cross.

Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

This is a personal opinion, but I think this was the most difficult part for Jesus, being separated from his Father. The word forsake here means to abandon or desert. Jesus the Son loves the Father, I am sure this was heartbreaking for them both.

So, Jesus did not really relish what he had to do. But you see that he prays his Father, "not as I will, but as thou wilt".

This is difficult to understand, I readily admit. But this is what the scriptures say.

I have seen the Calvinist arguments that when God regenerates a man to believe, then then man wills to obey God. But that would be counterfeit obedience, that would not be real or genuine obedience. You can twist it any way you want, but that would be God controlling man's will. It would not be the man believeing, it would be God believeing for you.

 

[Havensdad]

Yes.

But according to Scripture, He cannot choose to sin.

I have seen the Calvinist arguments that when God regenerates a man to believe, then then man wills to obey God. But that would be counterfeit obedience, that would not be real or genuine obedience. You can twist it any way you want, but that would be God controlling man's will. It would not be the man believeing, it would be God believeing for you.

So, it would basically be something that man received as a free gift, which he did not earn, or deserve?

 

[OldRegular]

I have seen the Calvinist arguments that when God regenerates a man to believe, then then man wills to obey God. But that would be counterfeit obedience, that would not be real or genuine obedience. You can twist it any way you want, but that would be God controlling man's will. It would not be the man believeing, it would be God believeing for you.

You forget or ignore that this regenerated man now has a different inclination. As John Dagg notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]: “So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

 

[Winman]

But according to Scripture, He cannot choose to sin.

So, it would basically be something that man received as a free gift, which he did not earn, or deserve?

What gift? It is imposed like taxes. Do you consider taxes a gift? I don't.

And people take gifts back to the store all the time because they don't want or like them. So even a gift can be refused.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman,

Does God have free will?

I am not Winman [I hope] but I will give you my opinion. GOD cannot do anything that is contrary to HIS nature!

 

[Johnv]

When we ask if God has things like free will, we're asking the wrong question. Concepts like free will are attributes of the human condition. They're not attributes to an almighty God. Asking if God has free will is like asking if God can create a rock so big that even He can't move it.

 

[Havensdad]

What gift? It is imposed like taxes. Do you consider taxes a gift? I don't.

And people take gifts back to the store all the time because they don't want or like them. So even a gift can be refused.

Taxes? That's like the Government giving you ten million dollars! That is not called a "tax", that is called "benefits".

Tell me: if we had a way to "Zap" psychotic murderers, to completely change them and make them good, loving, law abiding citizens, would this be wrong? Of course not! We are saving the person from something that is inherently wrong inside of them. Not only that, we are saving them from getting punished by death in the electric chair, and giving them the ability to have a normal life.

I noticed you did not address my Free Will question. God cannot sin, the scriptures declare. Yet you say God has free will.

 

[Havensdad]

When we ask if God has things like free will, we're asking the wrong question. Concepts like free will are attributes of the human condition. They're not attributes to an almighty God. Asking if God has free will is like asking if God can create a rock so big that even He can't move it.

Not at all. Free Will is a communicable attribute of God.

 

[Winman]

You forget or ignore that this regenerated man now has a different inclination. As John Dagg notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]: “So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

Why do Calvinist's respond with the teachings of men?? I don't need men to tell me what the scriptures say. I on very rare occasion will consult a commentary, but not often. I find the scriptures define and explain themselves. If I am interested in a particular subject, I look up all the possible verses I can find concerning that subject and compare them.

So, I really don't care what your chosen commentary says. The Jehovah's Witnesses have commentaries, so does the Catholic church and every other. Am I supposed to accept their teaching over scripture? Not me.

Saying that when a men is regenerated that he will suddenly agree in will with God without even being aware of it is unscriptural. You will not find one single verse in the scriptures to support it.

And it is plain dumb on the face of it. Do you think God is honored by people who are puppets or robots? They do not love him because they choose to, they are literally forced to. That would be a counterfeit love, it would not be genuine at all. If I can understand this, do you not think God can understand this?

God wants people who choose him of their own free will. That is real love, that is genuine love.

And the verse comparing the Holy Spirit to the wind has not one word about God regenerating a man to believe. You have to insert that yourself. It is showing that the Holy Spirit cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it's effects can be seen in the man who possesses it, just as we can see the wind rustle the leaves or hear it blow through the trees, but yet not see it.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Here Jesus told the Pharisees that the kingdom of God cometh not with observation. That is, you can't see it with your eyes. Then in the next verse he says the kingdom of God is "within you". This is speaking of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Johnv]

Not at all. Free Will is a communicable attribute of God.

Free will involves making a choice and being responsible for its consequences. It involves cause and effect in a timeline. God is not limited to existence in a timeline. God exists in all times at once. Therefore, cause and effect concepts are not part of God's nature.