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Did Jesus Have Faith?
- Thread starter Tom Butler
- Start date
No. God IS. He can be nothing less than He is.
I think it's a mystery than cannot be fully understood by a mere human such as myself.
John 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
As a man Jesus had faith or trust in the woman at the well that she would draw some water for him so that he could have a drink. He was thirsty.
As God, in His omniscience he knew she would. As God He didn't need faith.
As man, he put his confidence or trust in her believing that she would be kind enough to comply with his request. And she did. He did not act upon his omniscience or omnipotence (forcing her). He acted as a man, by faith.
John 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
If we assume that it was Christ that sent the disciples back for bread or food (just assume), then we can say that he had faith that they would return with bread. He wasn't forcing them. He wasn't using omnipotence. He wasn't using omniscience to our knowledge, though he could have. He was simply acting as a man, believing that his disciples would come back safely, bringing food with them.
Both of these are examples of faith. Faith does not always have to do with salvation.
John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
As a man Jesus had faith or trust in the woman at the well that she would draw some water for him so that he could have a drink. He was thirsty.
As God, in His omniscience he knew she would. As God He didn't need faith.
As man, he put his confidence or trust in her believing that she would be kind enough to comply with his request. And she did. He did not act upon his omniscience or omnipotence (forcing her). He acted as a man, by faith.
John 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
If we assume that it was Christ that sent the disciples back for bread or food (just assume), then we can say that he had faith that they would return with bread. He wasn't forcing them. He wasn't using omnipotence. He wasn't using omniscience to our knowledge, though he could have. He was simply acting as a man, believing that his disciples would come back safely, bringing food with them.
Both of these are examples of faith. Faith does not always have to do with salvation.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I think Winman made the observation: "A Calvinist can't understand the concept of faith." But I think he was thinking specifically of OR.
Call off the hounds.
The definition provided earlier gave a clue.
Everybody has a faith in something.
Jesus had faith that the Father would do as he promised.
The unsaved have faith that their works will earn them a position before God
What a Christian has that makes us different is a saving faith.
A saving faith is placed upon a Savior, Someone who can save.
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:20 ESV
No, Jesus did not have a saving faith.
He himself is the object of that faith!
looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:2 ESV
Rob
The definition provided earlier gave a clue.
Everybody has a faith in something.
Jesus had faith that the Father would do as he promised.
The unsaved have faith that their works will earn them a position before God
What a Christian has that makes us different is a saving faith.
A saving faith is placed upon a Savior, Someone who can save.
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:20 ESV
No, Jesus did not have a saving faith.
He himself is the object of that faith!
looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12:2 ESV
Rob
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Tom Butler
New Member
The answer to the OP question relates directly to the nature and attributes of God.
God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
When God acts, what he performs happens because of his power.
What God knows, he knows because of his determinate counsel (Acts 2:23)
What we call faith is a confident hope based on the evidence we have that God has been (and will be) faithful to his word and powerful enough to bring it about.
Jesus, being God in the flesh, did not have to trust God to raise him from the dead. The Godhead had decreed this from eternity, so there was no need for Jesus to have a confident hope that the Father would carry out his part of the decree.
Jesus knew that Judas would betray him. He knew this, not just because he knew, but also because the Godhead had decreed it. There was no way it would not happen.
We would probably not be having this discussion were it not for Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." This is beyond my understanding. Jesus had spent the entire chapter outlining events associated with the Second Coming--things he knew. Same in Matthew 24-25. We have built our eschatology around what he related. How could he know all he related, yet not know the "day and the hour?"
I think the answer is related to Jesus' human nature, but I admit I'm out of my league here.
I believe Jesus had all power, yet simply refused to exercise it. That's why he did not need to have faith.
God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
When God acts, what he performs happens because of his power.
What God knows, he knows because of his determinate counsel (Acts 2:23)
What we call faith is a confident hope based on the evidence we have that God has been (and will be) faithful to his word and powerful enough to bring it about.
Jesus, being God in the flesh, did not have to trust God to raise him from the dead. The Godhead had decreed this from eternity, so there was no need for Jesus to have a confident hope that the Father would carry out his part of the decree.
Jesus knew that Judas would betray him. He knew this, not just because he knew, but also because the Godhead had decreed it. There was no way it would not happen.
We would probably not be having this discussion were it not for Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." This is beyond my understanding. Jesus had spent the entire chapter outlining events associated with the Second Coming--things he knew. Same in Matthew 24-25. We have built our eschatology around what he related. How could he know all he related, yet not know the "day and the hour?"
I think the answer is related to Jesus' human nature, but I admit I'm out of my league here.
I believe Jesus had all power, yet simply refused to exercise it. That's why he did not need to have faith.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Consider the Scripture from Hebrews. That says that Jesus Christ is the the founder and perfecter of our faith. I believe that KJV writes the author and finisher of our faith.
Does that mean that the faith which we exercise in Jesus Christ as Savior is something He gave us? Sure sounds like it to me!
Why is there a question? If Tom Butler had shown the verse I was commenting on, it is obvious Jesus had faith.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
When Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit", Jesus was saying he was trusting the care of his spirit into his Father's hands. This is what faith or trust means, it means to depend upon, or rely upon.
When a skydiver jumps out of an airplane, they are exercising faith in the parachute. They are wholly depending or relying upon that parachute to get them to the ground safely. They do not flap their arms and try to fly. If the parachute fails, then that person will fall to their death.
When you go to the bank and deposit money you are exercising faith. You are trusting them to keep your money safely, and believing you can come back later and withdraw it. They money is no longer in your hands, you have placed it in their hands to keep. Faith is taking a risk, risking yourself or something you own into the care of another. Look at all the folks who trusted Bernie Madoff with all their money. Didn't work out so well for them. But they trusted, unfortunately they trusted someone who was unreliable. So, it is the object of your faith that matters.
Not only did Jesus trust the Father, but the Father also trusted Jesus.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
When Jesus was in the world, the Father trusted his disciples into Jesus's hands. And Jesus kept them. And now that Jesus was going to be crucified, he entrusted his Father to keep them. This is what trust or faith means.
It is not enough to simply believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have to trust your soul into his hands, just as Jesus trusted his spirit into his Father's hands. Faith is a ceasing from work or self-effort and depending on another.
When I get on an airliner, I am exercising faith. I am trusting my very life in the safety of the airplane and the pilots who fly it. If the plane malfunctions or the pilots make an error and the plane crashes I will be killed. I am placing my life in their hands. This is what faith is.
And Jesus was depending on his Father to raise him from the dead. Jesus could have fought death, how could the cross kill the Son of God? He could have come down from the cross or called angels to take him down. He did not, he voluntarily died. He died much sooner than the two malefactors who where crucified with him, so much so that Pilate marvelled. They had to break the other men's legs so they could not support themselves in order that they die before sunset. Crucifixion basically suffocates you, you are hanging by your arms putting tremendous pressure on your chest and breathing. This is why Jesus cried out in thirst, you are fighting for each breath. But you could push up with your feet and momentarily relieve the stress and breathe easier. So, this is why they broke their legs. I cannot imagine how they did it, perhaps they took a large club or bat and repeatedly smashed their shins, it must have been a horribly painful death. But these men were still alive, they were fighting to stay alive. Jesus did not.
Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
Jesus didn't just die, he voluntarily died. He gave up the ghost. And before he did he cried out to the Father and entrusted his spirit into his Father's hands. This is faith, this is trust.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
When Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit", Jesus was saying he was trusting the care of his spirit into his Father's hands. This is what faith or trust means, it means to depend upon, or rely upon.
When a skydiver jumps out of an airplane, they are exercising faith in the parachute. They are wholly depending or relying upon that parachute to get them to the ground safely. They do not flap their arms and try to fly. If the parachute fails, then that person will fall to their death.
When you go to the bank and deposit money you are exercising faith. You are trusting them to keep your money safely, and believing you can come back later and withdraw it. They money is no longer in your hands, you have placed it in their hands to keep. Faith is taking a risk, risking yourself or something you own into the care of another. Look at all the folks who trusted Bernie Madoff with all their money. Didn't work out so well for them. But they trusted, unfortunately they trusted someone who was unreliable. So, it is the object of your faith that matters.
Not only did Jesus trust the Father, but the Father also trusted Jesus.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
When Jesus was in the world, the Father trusted his disciples into Jesus's hands. And Jesus kept them. And now that Jesus was going to be crucified, he entrusted his Father to keep them. This is what trust or faith means.
It is not enough to simply believe Jesus is the Son of God, you have to trust your soul into his hands, just as Jesus trusted his spirit into his Father's hands. Faith is a ceasing from work or self-effort and depending on another.
When I get on an airliner, I am exercising faith. I am trusting my very life in the safety of the airplane and the pilots who fly it. If the plane malfunctions or the pilots make an error and the plane crashes I will be killed. I am placing my life in their hands. This is what faith is.
And Jesus was depending on his Father to raise him from the dead. Jesus could have fought death, how could the cross kill the Son of God? He could have come down from the cross or called angels to take him down. He did not, he voluntarily died. He died much sooner than the two malefactors who where crucified with him, so much so that Pilate marvelled. They had to break the other men's legs so they could not support themselves in order that they die before sunset. Crucifixion basically suffocates you, you are hanging by your arms putting tremendous pressure on your chest and breathing. This is why Jesus cried out in thirst, you are fighting for each breath. But you could push up with your feet and momentarily relieve the stress and breathe easier. So, this is why they broke their legs. I cannot imagine how they did it, perhaps they took a large club or bat and repeatedly smashed their shins, it must have been a horribly painful death. But these men were still alive, they were fighting to stay alive. Jesus did not.
Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
Jesus didn't just die, he voluntarily died. He gave up the ghost. And before he did he cried out to the Father and entrusted his spirit into his Father's hands. This is faith, this is trust.
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I suppose blind faith exists, but I don't consider my faith in Christ blind. For me, it was the scriptures. When I read the scriptures as a boy, they had the ring of truth to them. Yes, it is hard for us to believe the miracles like the parting of the Red Sea or Jesus walking on water. But what did it for me was that the scriptures really told me about myself. We love to believe ourselves good, but deep down we know we have many serious moral problems. We lie when we are afraid, we look on another woman with lust, we are envious of others... The list is endless. The scriptures revealed all this, and deep down I knew it was true. I had never read a book like this before.
John 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.
The other religions do not teach this, they teach that man is good and can earn his way to heaven on his own merits. I have not been very successful in this life, how could I possibly earn heaven? And the scriptures told of a righteous and perfect God, one who never lies or deceives, one who never misleads. For me, this is a wonderful thing. I grew up kinda rough, and trust is not easy for me. I longed for someone I could truly trust. And the scriptures revealed the true God in whom we can absolutely trust.
Peter's faith failed because he took his eyes off Jesus and listened and saw the wind and waves around him.
Matt 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
I actually take great comfort in this account, if Peter could have moments of doubt, then we surely will too. But notice when Peter cried out to Jesus, then Jesus saved him. This is faith, Peter placed his dependence upon Jesus to save him at this moment, and Jesus did.
We think faith is a feeling, but it is not. Faith is something you can know you have done. When you get on a airplane you are trusting it, and you know it. If you do not trust airplanes you will not get on.
But let's say you get on an airplane and are terrified, are you still trusting it? Yes, because you got on. You have placed yourself in dependence upon the plane even if you are fearful. So it is not a feeling, it is a decision, a committment, something you can know you have done.
There are lots of words used in the Bible to help us understand what believing in Jesus means.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
When you cease trying to save yourself and call to Jesus for salvation, you have placed your dependence on him. Can you know if you have called out to Jesus for salvation? Of course.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Just as the Israelites looked to the bronze serpent to save them when they were bitten, we can look to Christ. This is a looking from deep within our soul, a crying out and calling to Jesus. Can you know if you did this? Yes.
Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
How can we come to Jesus? All we can do is cry out to him from within ourselves. But can we know we have done this? Yes.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
This speaks of the will. Jesus is knocking on the door of our heart. He wants to come in and save us, but he needs our permission. He does not force himself on you as many here teach. How can you open the door? You call out to Jesus and invite him into your heart. Can you know you have done this? Yes.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
This is another verse concerning the will. How do you take this free water of life? How can you possibly do such a thing? The only thing you can do is call out to Jesus in your heart and tell him you will accept this water. Can you know that you have done that? Yes.
All of these are actions, but it is not the action that saves, it is the faith. You are not going to call out to Jesus unless you truly believe he is the Son of God and can save you. The action is a result of the faith. I really think these actions described are to help us know and have assurance. What faith is, is hard to describe. But we can know if we have called out to Christ for salvation, so I believe these actions are to help us have assurance.
If you read the scriptures, men did not have trouble knowing if they believed or not. They knew it.
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Notice how matter-of-factly Paul asked these disciples if they believed. It is not some sort of magical thing as some here make it. It is something you can know you have done with assurance.
If I get on a plane, whether I am afraid or not, I know I have trusted it. If I go skydiving and jump out of the plane, I may be screaming in fear all the way down, but nevertheless I know I have trusted it because I jumped. I placed my dependence on it.
Peter was plenty afraid when he was sinking. But he placed his dependence on Jesus when he cried out, and Jesus saved him.
Psa 56:3 What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee.
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This is the crux of the matter.
As God, God has need of nothing. Otherwise he would not be God. God does not need faith.
But God became man and dwelt among us, and John said: "we beheld his glory.." The Word (Christ) became flesh.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
God is omipotent, omniscient, omni-present. As such he needs no faith. He needs no hope. He knows all that will happen. He doesn't need the evidence of things not seen. He is omniscient. He doesn't have to hope for anything. There are no deficiencies in God.
When God became a man, he laid aside some of these divine attributes, or at least chose not to exercise them. That does not mean he was not the God-man, or was not God in any sense of the word. He was still God. But as God he had the perfect right not to exercise some of his attributes, and so he did. Thus, as a man, taking upon himself human nature, there were many occasions in life were he put his faith in others. He became dependent on others. He relied on others. When he gave commands to his disciples, he didn't force them to carry them out. He expected them to do it out of love and obedience. And that expectation was by faith. It is the same faith that a parent has in their child to obey. Faith is trust, confidence.
Biblical faith is trust or confidence in God.
Yes, it is a difficult thing to understand, how Jesus could be God and be a man, but he was.
And Peter himself showed that Jesus trusted in his Father in Acts 2.
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Peter quotes from Psalms 16 and shows that this Psalm was a prophesy of Christ to come, and that the Father had promised to raise Christ from the dead and would not allow his flesh to see corruption.
The Jews believed that the body started to decay on the fourth day after death.
John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
Jesus's body did not decay because he was raised to life on the third day.
Notice also in verse 33 that it also says Jesus received the promise of the Holy Ghost. I admit that is difficult to understand, but that is what the scriptures say.
All faith is based on promise. When someone makes you a promise, it is something you either believe and depend on or not. So Peter here shows that Jesus not only believed his Father would raise him from the dead, but that he would also receive the Holy Ghost.
Not saying I understand this, but that is what the scriptures say.
And Peter himself showed that Jesus trusted in his Father in Acts 2.
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Peter quotes from Psalms 16 and shows that this Psalm was a prophesy of Christ to come, and that the Father had promised to raise Christ from the dead and would not allow his flesh to see corruption.
The Jews believed that the body started to decay on the fourth day after death.
John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
Jesus's body did not decay because he was raised to life on the third day.
Notice also in verse 33 that it also says Jesus received the promise of the Holy Ghost. I admit that is difficult to understand, but that is what the scriptures say.
All faith is based on promise. When someone makes you a promise, it is something you either believe and depend on or not. So Peter here shows that Jesus not only believed his Father would raise him from the dead, but that he would also receive the Holy Ghost.
Not saying I understand this, but that is what the scriptures say.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
That is a very good question. I think I'll start another thread for it.
peace to you
raying:
Marcia
Active Member
DHK, I don't disagree with you too often, but I do here.
I don't think Jesus had faith in his disciples; he knew what they would do.
I don't think he laid aside his divine attributes to incarnate; I think he laid aside his glory. That is different. I agree with what Swaimj said previously.
So I don't think Jesus had faith, certainly not the kind we do. He didn't need faith because he knew the Father intimately from eternity, even in his incarnation as a man.
Perhaps. Even most of the time, probably. But we will never know for sure. The Bible doesn't make itself clear on whether or not he was always exercising his attribute of omniscience when he was with his disciples.
There are times in his life where he had to set aside certain of his attributes. He set aside his omnipotence and allowed himself to be taken captive, scourged, nailed to the cross, suffer and die. Why didn't he use his omnipotence and call thousands of angels from his heavenly Father. The reason: he laid aside his divine attribute of omnipotence--that he was all powerful.
He confined himself to one place at a time. He walked through Samaria. He wasn't omnipresent when he was on this earth. That is another attribute that he laid aside.
When he was an infant he laid aside almost all of his attributes and was completely dependent upon his parents. There he had to have trust and faith in Mary.
He was the God-Man. But there were times when he laid aside his divine attributes, that is, he did not exercise them.
And there were times where he forcefully exercised his power as in the raising of Lazarus from the dead, walking on water, etc.
Marcia
Active Member
I guess it depends on what is meant by "set aside." I agree that he chose not to use his omnipotence or other powers at certain points, but this is different than not having them, or putting them aside before the incarnation in such a way that they did not exist for them.
I believe Jesus set them aside in the sense of choosing not to use these powers at certain points (at other points he did use his attributes, such as omniscience), but I do not believe he set them aside in the sense of not having them or not being able to use them.
No, I didn't mean to imply that. By setting aside, I meant that he deliberately chose not to use certain divine attributes.
Tom Butler
New Member
Sometimes weird questions occur to me, like this one.
Jesus, in several instances, knew the minds and hearts of individuals. Yet he said that even the Son does not know the hour of the end times. So how does that work?
Are there circumstances under which Jesus chooses to know something, but in other circumstances chooses not to know? How can He turn it on and off at will?
I'll know the answer some day, and I'll share it with those of you who are in line behind me at the Throne.
Jesus, in several instances, knew the minds and hearts of individuals. Yet he said that even the Son does not know the hour of the end times. So how does that work?
Are there circumstances under which Jesus chooses to know something, but in other circumstances chooses not to know? How can He turn it on and off at will?
I'll know the answer some day, and I'll share it with those of you who are in line behind me at the Throne.
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Maybe because it wasn't Jesus' will, but the Father's will that kept Him from knowing certain things. He was always doing the Father's will.
Just a thought.