If you continue to take up space in this thread OR, with childish antics I will just close it. I only asked for a simple definition of one word. And I get your infantile word games. If you don't want an intelligent debate I will close the thread. I am tired of your antics.
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- Thread starter OldRegular
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DHK said:
allow me to ask, if you will.
if "dead" does not mean without life, then what does it mean ?
a ship dead in the water cannot move unless the engine is running, so we have it "dead in the water".
lazarus was dead in the tomb, and no less than Jesus Himself agreed with Martha's statement that lazarus was dead.
a corpse is a corpse because you can kick it around and it doesn't know it's being kicked around.
death is the absence of life, so dead has no life.
so, how dead could dead be, and how living could alive be ?
First, definitions stand on their own. We do not define words by their opposites. For example: Define Baptist Church. Perhaps: the opposite of Satan's Church?
Define blue. Maybe the opposite of green?
Define house. Maybe the opposite of tent.
Definitions are not word games of antonyms. They stand on their own.
If one cannot give a definition either without the use of the word they are defining or without the opposite of the word they are defining then they have failed. Since I don't believe that death is the absence of life, and I don't want to go down another rabbit trail of defining life, I would just ask for a simple definition of the word death, without trying to use its opposite. Is that possible?
The scriptures are clear on this. Death means separation from God. The spiritually dead have the abilities to think, hear, see, speak, feel emotions and pain, and many other abilities. But they are separated. Look at the rich man who died in Luke 16, he is separated from Lazarus who was in the paradise portion of hell.
Acts 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Notice that the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus who were "afar off". He could speak to Abraham and hear Abraham's response. He thirsted, he was tormented in the flame. He also showed repentance though it was too late and asked if Abraham would send someone to speak to his brothers so they would not perish. Notice when he asked for a drop of water that Abraham said there was a great gulf between them which no man could pass over.
This is spiritual death. It is nothing like a lifeless corpse that can do nothing. It means to be separated from God.
This separation is shown in Genesis with Adam and Eve.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
When Adam and Eve sinned they spiritually died. Notice how they hid themselves from the presence of the Lord. This is the separation. But they could hear God's voice and God could hear them. They could come to God and did when he called.
We see this separation in Revelations.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
The saved are allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem, the unsaved are forever kept out and not allowed in. This is death, it is separation from God forever.
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Well, could you define murder, without using its opposite ?
You've just give linguists a problem. Here's a whole slew of definitions of death, and for the most part, they state or insinuate the opposite, something which you disallow.
–adjective 1.no longer living; deprived of life: dead people; dead flowers; dead animals. 2.brain-dead. 3.not endowed with life; inanimate: dead stones. 4.resembling death; deathlike: a dead sleep; a dead faint. 5.bereft of sensation; numb: He was half dead with fright. My leg feels dead. 6.lacking sensitivity of feeling; insensitive: dead to the needs of others. 7.incapable of being emotionally moved; unresponsive: dead to the nuances of the music. 8.(of an emotion) no longer felt; ended; extinguished: a dead passion; dead affections. 9.no longer current or prevalent, as in effect, significance, or practice; obsolete: a dead law; a dead controversy. 10.no longer functioning, operating, or productive: a dead motor; a dead battery. 11.not moving or circulating; stagnant; stale: dead water; dead air. 12.utterly tired; exhausted: They felt dead from the six-hour trip. 13.(of a language) no longer in use as a sole means of oral communication among a people: Latin is a dead language. 14.without vitality, spirit, enthusiasm, or the like: a dead party. 15.lacking the customary activity; dull; inactive: a dead business day. 16.complete; absolute: dead silence; The plan was a dead loss. 17.sudden or abrupt, as the complete stoppage of an action: The bus came to a dead stop. 18.put out; extinguished: a dead cigarette. 19.without resilience or bounce: a dead tennis ball. 20.infertile; barren: dead land. 21.exact; precise: the dead center of a circle. 22.accurate; sure; unerring: a dead shot. 23.direct; straight: a dead line. 24.tasteless or flat, as a beverage: a dead soft drink. 25.flat rather than glossy, bright, or brilliant: The house was painted dead white. 26.without resonance; anechoic: dead sound; a dead wall surface of a recording studio. 27.not fruitful; unproductive: dead capital. 28.Law. deprived of civil rights so that one is in the state of civil death, esp. deprived of the rights of property.29.Sports. out of play: a dead ball. 30.(of a golf ball) lying so close to the hole as to make holing on the next stroke a virtual certainty.31.(of type or copy) having been used or rejected.32.Electricity. a.free from any electric connection to a source of potential difference and from electric charge.b.not having a potential different from that of the earth.33.Metallurgy. (of steel) a.fully killed.b.unresponsive to heat treatment.34.(of the mouth of a horse) no longer sensitive to the pressure of a bit.35.noting any rope in a tackle that does not pass over a pulley or is not rove through a block.
–noun 36.the period of greatest darkness, coldness, etc.: the dead of night; the dead of winter. 37.the dead, dead persons collectively: Prayers were recited for the dead.
–adverb 38.absolutely; completely: dead right; dead tired. 39.with sudden and total stoppage of motion, action, or the like: He stopped dead. 40.directly; exactly; straight: The island lay dead ahead.
—Idioms 41.dead in the water, completely inactive or inoperable; no longer in action or under consideration: Our plans to expand the business have been dead in the water for the past two months. 42.dead to rights, in the very act of committing a crime, offense, or mistake; red-handed.
Origin:
bef. 950; ME deed, OE dēad; c. Goth dauths, G tot, ON daudhr; orig. ptp. See die 1
Related forms:
deadness, noun
Synonyms:
1. Dead, deceased, extinct, lifeless refer to something that does not have or appear to have life. Dead is usually applied to something that had life but from which life is now gone: dead trees. Deceased, a more formal word than dead, is applied to human beings who no longer have life: a deceased member of the church. Extinct is applied to a race, species, or the like, no member of which is any longer alive: Mastodons are now extinct. Lifeless is applied to something that may or may not have had life but that does not have it or appear to have it now: The lifeless body of a child was taken out of the water. Minerals consist of lifeless materials. 6. unfeeling, indifferent, callous, cold. 10. inert, inoperative. 11. still, motionless. 16. utter, entire, total. 20. sterile.
Antonyms:
1. living, alive.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I suspected that was your goal. I have answered your stupid question. You just don't like the answer because it does not comport with your erroneous doctrine; yet you continued to ask it.
I ignored the repetitive question for several days but then when I answered it you continued to repeat it. Talk about childish antics! To repeat an earlier response:
You are unable to carry on a civil debate. On more than one occasion you called me a liar. On more than one occasion you cleverly questioned my Salvation. That is the reason that I quit answering your inane question about death. You are free to use your power as moderator to close this thread but I will simply start another and then use my "free will" as a Forum member to ignore any response you might have.:tongue3::tongue3::tongue3::tongue3:
If you continue to harass me using your position as moderator I will report you to an administrator. I believe that there is sufficient evidence on this thread to convince them that I have done nothing contrary to Forum rules. The same cannot be said for you.
I have never questioned your salvation, and when you accused me of such you were unable to point to any such URL. So unless you can quote me on where I have done so, withdraw your accusation.
Read Winman's post. He defines death. You wouldn't even attempt to define the word, even give your definition even if it was wrong. You made no attempt. That is childishness.
You have been doing this ever since the 2nd of January. That is a long time ago and many pages ago.
In all those definitions the word "dead" has but one meaning: "separation". Winman has pointed that out just previously. When a man is dead, he is separated from God. That is what Eph.2:1 points out. It teaches that once the Ephesians were dead (separated from God), but now they are alive (in union or reconciled) with God. Death, in the Bible, does not mean lifelessness. That is a Calvinistic error which leads to a wrong theology. It is always defined as separation. There is eternal separation. There is the Second Death. There is spiritual separation. All of this is death (separation from God).Well, could you define murder, without using its opposite ?
You've just give linguists a problem. Here's a whole slew of definitions of death, and for the most part, they state or insinuate the opposite, something which you disallow.
–adjective 1.no longer living; deprived of life: dead people; dead flowers; dead animals. 2.brain-dead. 3.not endowed with life; inanimate: dead stones. 4.resembling death; deathlike: a dead sleep; a dead faint. 5.bereft of sensation; numb: He was half dead with fright. My leg feels dead. 6.lacking sensitivity of feeling; insensitive: dead to the needs of others. 7.incapable of being emotionally moved; unresponsive: dead to the nuances of the music. 8.(of an emotion) no longer felt; ended; extinguished: a dead passion; dead affections. 9.no longer current or prevalent, as in effect, significance, or practice; obsolete: a dead law; a dead controversy. 10.no longer functioning, operating, or productive: a dead motor; a dead battery. 11.not moving or circulating; stagnant; stale: dead water; dead air. 12.utterly tired; exhausted: They felt dead from the six-hour trip. 13.(of a language) no longer in use as a sole means of oral communication among a people: Latin is a dead language. 14.without vitality, spirit, enthusiasm, or the like: a dead party. 15.lacking the customary activity; dull; inactive: a dead business day. 16.complete; absolute: dead silence; The plan was a dead loss. 17.sudden or abrupt, as the complete stoppage of an action: The bus came to a dead stop. 18.put out; extinguished: a dead cigarette. 19.without resilience or bounce: a dead tennis ball. 20.infertile; barren: dead land. 21.exact; precise: the dead center of a circle. 22.accurate; sure; unerring: a dead shot. 23.direct; straight: a dead line. 24.tasteless or flat, as a beverage: a dead soft drink. 25.flat rather than glossy, bright, or brilliant: The house was painted dead white. 26.without resonance; anechoic: dead sound; a dead wall surface of a recording studio. 27.not fruitful; unproductive: dead capital. 28.Law. deprived of civil rights so that one is in the state of civil death, esp. deprived of the rights of property.29.Sports. out of play: a dead ball. 30.(of a golf ball) lying so close to the hole as to make holing on the next stroke a virtual certainty.31.(of type or copy) having been used or rejected.32.Electricity. a.free from any electric connection to a source of potential difference and from electric charge.b.not having a potential different from that of the earth.33.Metallurgy. (of steel) a.fully killed.b.unresponsive to heat treatment.34.(of the mouth of a horse) no longer sensitive to the pressure of a bit.35.noting any rope in a tackle that does not pass over a pulley or is not rove through a block.
–noun 36.the period of greatest darkness, coldness, etc.: the dead of night; the dead of winter. 37.the dead, dead persons collectively: Prayers were recited for the dead.
–adverb 38.absolutely; completely: dead right; dead tired. 39.with sudden and total stoppage of motion, action, or the like: He stopped dead. 40.directly; exactly; straight: The island lay dead ahead.
—Idioms 41.dead in the water, completely inactive or inoperable; no longer in action or under consideration: Our plans to expand the business have been dead in the water for the past two months. 42.dead to rights, in the very act of committing a crime, offense, or mistake; red-handed.
Origin:
bef. 950; ME deed, OE dēad; c. Goth dauths, G tot, ON daudhr; orig. ptp. See die 1
Related forms:
deadness, noun
Synonyms:
1. Dead, deceased, extinct, lifeless refer to something that does not have or appear to have life. Dead is usually applied to something that had life but from which life is now gone: dead trees. Deceased, a more formal word than dead, is applied to human beings who no longer have life: a deceased member of the church. Extinct is applied to a race, species, or the like, no member of which is any longer alive: Mastodons are now extinct. Lifeless is applied to something that may or may not have had life but that does not have it or appear to have it now: The lifeless body of a child was taken out of the water. Minerals consist of lifeless materials. 6. unfeeling, indifferent, callous, cold. 10. inert, inoperative. 11. still, motionless. 16. utter, entire, total. 20. sterile.
Antonyms:
1. living, alive.
Sin separates us from God.
Adam sinned. In the day that he sinned he died. What happened? He was separated from God. What did God do? He provided a sacrifice and reconciled Adam to himself. Thus it has been all throughout human history. Death is separation.
Physical death is the separation of the body from the spirit as taught in James 2.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
This thread was about Spiritual Death. I defined what I believe Spiritual Death to mean. Then you started making snide remarks, questioning whether Ephesians 2:1 was related to physical death and resurrection from physical death which I think is really making fun of Scripture. You apparently did not think so since you persisted with the asinine question. I believe that pinoybaptist has given an adequate answer. And this is my final response to you on this Forum.
To repeat an earlier response:
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The only thing I got from you is "lifelessness." Thus I went from that which needs life to physical death and physical life. For death is not the absence of life. And the question is not asinine for you could not follow that simple logic.
The only thing pinoybaptist gave was a slew of definitions out of dictionary which doesn't provide any Biblical definition at all. Again if you don't agree with me, then read Winman's post. He gives a good explanation. One doesn't define a word by giving its so-called opposite. That was your problem.
I fail to see how this can provoke such spirited discussion because I do not think that essentially there is much difference in how you view death to how we view death.
It was just a matter of elaboration.
Death is separation.
The soul leaves the body, that body is dead.
The soul that is separated from God, whether that soul is in the body or not, that soul is dead, because God is life. Like a leaf that is separated from the tree, that leaf is dead because it is separated from its source of sustenance.
Now if a soul is separate from God who is its lifegiver, how then can it know the things of the Lord ?
Like if a body has no soul and is dead, how does it know it is dead ?
The Calvinist uses such verses as Eph.2:1 to say that the unsaved is dead or lifeless (spiritually), and thus supernaturally must be made alive without faith. This is one of their key verses. It speaks to regeneration before salvation without faith.
But death is not lifelessness. It is simply separation. If a man is simply separated from God it does not mean that he is dead in the way that a Calvinist defines dead--without life. Sin has separated him from God and he must be reconciled.
The entire ministry of the Apostles (through the Great Commission), and thus given to us (as defined in 2Cor.5:18-21), is one of reconciliation. We are ambassadors for Christ. We are sent out by Christ with a message of reconciliation, a ministry of reconciliation, to reconcile the world unto Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:19-20 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
The unsaved are not dead as in lifeless, but dead in that they are separated and need to be reconciled to God.
Contrarily, life is not the absence of "death", but rather it is union with God. Once a person is united with God, that is life. Jesus said: I am come that you might have life, and that you might have it more abundantly. He is life. Union with him is life. Separation from him is death.
But you will have to take this up with Paul, the human instrument in writing, the Holy Spirit, the real author, and the entire Greek language, because Paul used the word "dead". Strong's numbers states that the Greek word was "nekros" which could mean any or all of the following depending on the usage:DHK said:
properly
one that has breathed his last, lifeless
deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
destitute of life, without life, inanimate
metaph.
spiritually dead
destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
inactive as respects doing right
destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
Right. And you are clearly referring to Isaiah 59:2 which says "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear ."DHK said:
But to whom is that Scripture addressed ? Is it addressed to all mankind ?
Then and now, does all mankind look to God as their God, and does God consider all mankind to be His children ?
And herein, I believe, is the reason for the misunderstandings between many believers.
We are trying to apply words which God intended for His chosen people of the Old Testament (representing His elect as we know them in the New Testament) to every Tom, Dick and Harry, when Paul has clearly stated that whatoever things were written were written for our learning (Romans 15:4) and in the process we are declaring that God has not judged fallen man yet when the cross already sealed the eternal fate of Satan, his angels, and the unelect, just as it sealed in time the eternal redemption of His people.
The work of redemption is over, and just as the children of God look to His Second Coming and without fail Christ will come for His own, whether they know Him or not, even so those whose names do not appear in the Lamb's Book of Life have the Great White Throne looming in their future, whether or not they professed salvation or knowledge of God.
And there is no dispute there, but again, which world ? And I am sure this question will elicit more comments and perhaps is worthy of its own thread.DHK said:
But if dead is simply to be separated from God, and if the Bible says that God is Life, Jesus being God, and Jesus being Life, then doesn't it follow that the separated is "lifeless" and therefore, "dead" ? And surely your definition can apply as well to those in hell ? The ones separated by a great gulf from the bosom of Father Abraham, as in Winman's example ? Sure they may possess the ability to feel pain and heat and thirst and worry about their loved ones not getting to where they are but they are still separated from Life, aren't they ? And without life, isn't something inert ?DHK said:
But, of course, because as already stated, God is Jesus, Jesus is God, and Jesus is Life, therefore God is Life.DHK said:
Again, these words do not address all of mankind, but those among mankind who are His.DHK said:
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
As I had posted earlier the following Scripture:
John 10:10. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Jesus Christ is not talking about giving life to those who were physically dead though HE did raise some from physical death. HE is talking about giving Spiritual Life to those who were dead in trespass and sins, those who were spiritually dead, unable to change their state without the supernatural intervention of GOD. I believe that doctrinally that is called Total Depravity.
As you posted before one can choose one of many definitions of the word "death." As in all cases, context gives meaning. It is obvious that word does not refer to corpse, as in lifeless, and thus I don't believe it refers to spiritual lifelessness either. That is not what Paul had in mind. Death consistently means separation. That is easily demonstrated throughout the entirety of Scriptures.
Because there are different types of death spoken of in Scriptures.
Physical death.
Spiritual death for the unbeliever.
Spiritual death for the believer.
Eternal death.
Second death.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Physical)
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--Both of these speak of speak of spiritual of spiritual death for the unbeliever. (separation)
Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--Spiritual death for the unbeliever. (separation)
The example of the rich man and Lazarus is an example of eternal death.
The Great White Throne Judgement is the Second Death--the ultimate separation from God.
In the last two examples they will be dead but living. They will be separated but able to feel the pain. They will not be lifeless in the way that we think of it. We do not adhere to the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine of Annihilation. That would be your belief in death.
Yes, and all for what? To face the Second Death--eternally separated from God in the Lake of Fire.
2Cor.5:18-21 speaks of the Great Commission to be carried out in the here and now. Now are we ambassadors for Christ. Now are we to carry out the gospel that others may be reconciled to Christ. Now is the day of salvation. Tomorrow may be too late. There is nothing difficult about this passage.
No, when the resurrection occurs, I believe the rapture takes place first. There will be a second resurrection--that of the unsaved. Else how will they be able to stand before God at the end of the Millennium? How will they be able to feel pain and remorse in the Lake of Fire. They will have a body such as the rich man demonstrated. He wanted Lazarus to cool the tip of his tongue. He was also separated, not only from Abraham and Lazarus, but from God himself. That is death--a life that goes on in separation from God.
Yes, but Jesus said the dead can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Calvinism and DoGs teach that the dead do not have the ability to hear God. But Jesus said the dead shall hear his voice. He did not say the living. And Jesus said that those dead who hear his voice shall live. So spiritual life FOLLOWS first hearing.
If Jesus regenerates you and makes you spiritually alive before you have the ability to hear, then John 5:25 is false. It should say the "living" shall hear the voice of the Son of God. It does not. It says the "dead".
And Isaiah was not simply speaking to the Jews.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Calvinism and DoGs teach that the dead do not have the ability to hear God. But Jesus said the dead shall hear his voice. He did not say the living. And Jesus said that those dead who hear his voice shall live. So spiritual life FOLLOWS first hearing.
If Jesus regenerates you and makes you spiritually alive before you have the ability to hear, then John 5:25 is false. It should say the "living" shall hear the voice of the Son of God. It does not. It says the "dead".
And Isaiah was not simply speaking to the Jews.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Very simply, until a man is regenerated, he is spiritually dead, separated from God, and all men who are born of Adam, are in the eyes of the Creator spiritually dead, even the elect, they are the ones being referred to here, and they are the ones that will be given life in the Spirit's own due time and being given life, shall hear.
Jesus said it Himself, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they know me".
Another passage that shows death means separation is when Jesus raised the young girl who died in Luke 8.
Luke 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
This young girl was physically dead. Whether her spirit was in the torment section of hell, or in the paradise section of hell I do not know. But notice first it says Jesus "called".
But very importantly, look what it says about the girl's spirit. It says the girl's spirit came again. The action shown is by the girl's spirit. It does not say Jesus pulled her spirit back from the dead and made it enter her body, no, it shows her spirit responded in obedience to Jesus's command and came back to her body.
She could hear Jesus when he called, and she obeyed and came back to her body.
Luke 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
This young girl was physically dead. Whether her spirit was in the torment section of hell, or in the paradise section of hell I do not know. But notice first it says Jesus "called".
But very importantly, look what it says about the girl's spirit. It says the girl's spirit came again. The action shown is by the girl's spirit. It does not say Jesus pulled her spirit back from the dead and made it enter her body, no, it shows her spirit responded in obedience to Jesus's command and came back to her body.
She could hear Jesus when he called, and she obeyed and came back to her body.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If the dead can hear HIS voice why do not all live. Apparently not all can hear HIS voice. WHY????
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Don't be surprised. Jesus Christ is GOD and HE did perform supernatural acts!