How Do They Know?

[Winman]

Very simply, until a man is regenerated, he is spiritually dead, separated from God, and all men who are born of Adam, are in the eyes of the Creator spiritually dead, even the elect, they are the ones being referred to here, and they are the ones that will be given life in the Spirit's own due time and being given life, shall hear.
Jesus said it Himself, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they know me".

No, that is incorrect. Jesus did not say the living shall hear his voice, he said the dead. He meant the spiritually dead. This is shown again in John 11.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus here says that if a person believes in him, even though he were dead (spiritually), YET (which means afterward) shall he live.

It is only because you have been taught that the spiritually dead are like a lifeless corpse that you cannot grasp this. The scriptures do not show a spiritually dead man to be like a corpse. They can hear, see, speak, feel, think, believe, and even repent. The rich man repented in hell, although it was too late to save him. But he requested that Abraham send someone from the dead to warn his brothers.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Though it was too late, the rich man clearly repented and asked Abraham to send someone to warn his brothers. And notice that the rich man understood they only need hear the word of God. He asked that someone would "testify" to them.

And then look at Abraham's response. He said they have Moses and the prophets, let them "hear" them. No regeneration spoken of, only hearing the word of God.

But then Abraham says if they will not hear the word of God, neither will they be "persuaded' if someone went to them from the dead.

We are not regenerated to believe, we are persuaded to believe. This is said many times in scripture.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Calvinists and DoGs make faith into some magical, mystical power. That is straight out of the false teaching of Catholicism. No, the scriptures say Paul "reasoned" and "persuaded" both the Jews and Greeks. Notice above that Abraham also said "persuaded".

2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Hearing the word of God is not supernatural. Believing the word of God is not supernatural. But when a person believes, then the Holy Spirit enters a man and regenerates him. That is supernatural.

Men can hear. Men can reason. Even God says let us reason together.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Hearing the word of God is man's part of salvation. This is not supernatural at all, all men have the ability to both hear and believe.

But when the Holy Spirit enters a man upon believing, then the man is regenerated. This regeneration is a supernatural act. This is God's part in salvation. A man cannot save himself, a man has no power to make himself spiritually alive, only God can do that. But God has promised to do that for those that believe.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To whom does God give the power to become the sons of God? To those who receive Jesus and believe on his name. So regeneration follows believing.

It is not like I am making this stuff up. I and others have shown you dozens of scriptures that clearly support our position and contradict yours. But you refuse to believe.

 

[OldRegular]

It is only because you have been taught that the spiritually dead are like a lifeless corpse that you cannot grasp this. The scriptures do not show a spiritually dead man to be like a corpse. They can hear, see, speak, feel, think, believe, and even repent. The rich man repented in hell, although it was too late to save him. But he requested that Abraham send someone from the dead to warn his brothers

Winman

With each post you show your ignorance of what the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace teaches. Where did you get the idea that the spiritually dead men was a lifeless corpse. They are in a physical body which can obviously hear, see, speak, feel, and sometimes think. However, one who is spiritually dead cannot repent and believe unless GOD performs an act of Grace in their lives called regeneration.

Also you are reading something into the story of Lazrus and the rich man that is not there. There is nothing indicating that the rich man repented. You are simply assuming that.

 

[DHK]

Winman

With each post you show your ignorance of what the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace teaches.

More civility please. He is not ignorant, and does not need personal attacks.

Where did you get the idea that the spiritually dead men was a lifeless corpse.

Winman doesn't believe this; he gets the idea that it is your belief as you refuse to stray from the definition of "death" = "without life". He is only making a logical conclusion based on your beliefs.

They are in a physical body which can obviously hear, see, speak, feel, and sometimes think. However, one who is spiritually dead cannot repent and believe unless GOD performs an act of Grace in their lives called regeneration.

If dead means "separated" then through faith that person can be reconciled to God, and indeed is through the Word of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is "by grace through faith." Dead doesn't mean lifelessness. It means separated, separated from God. An individual separated from God needs to be reconciled to God. That requires faith in the message of God, the gospel.

 

[Amy.G]

Spirit separated from the body = physical death.

Spirit separated from God = spiritual death.



Death is separation.

 

[Winman]

Winman

With each post you show your ignorance of what the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace teaches. Where did you get the idea that the spiritually dead men was a lifeless corpse. They are in a physical body which can obviously hear, see, speak, feel, and sometimes think. However, one who is spiritually dead cannot repent and believe unless GOD performs an act of Grace in their lives called regeneration.

Also you are reading something into the story of Lazrus and the rich man that is not there. There is nothing indicating that the rich man repented. You are simply assuming that.

The rich man absolutely repented. Look what he said to Abraham.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

The rich man absolutely repented. He had trusted in his riches and not God. And now he is forever aware of his mistake and asks if Abraham will send someone from the dead to warn his brothers. Notice he says they will repent.

If you do not see repentance here, you have no discernment.

 

[OldRegular]

The rich man absolutely repented. Look what he said to Abraham.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

The rich man absolutely repented. He had trusted in his riches and not God. And now he is forever aware of his mistake and asks if Abraham will send someone from the dead to warn his brothers. Notice he says they will repent.

If you do not see repentance here, you have no discernment.

The Scripture said "they will repent". It says nothing about the rich man repenting. You are maliciously twisting Scripture to prove your false beliefs.

 

[DHK]

The Scripture said "they will repent". It says nothing about the rich man repenting. You are maliciously twisting Scripture to prove your false beliefs.

Do you not think that on that final day, the Judgement Day of the Great White Throne Judgment, that ALL present will repent?
Do you not think that for all eternity in the Lake of Fire there will be repentance (a change of mind towards God) by those spending their eternity in torment there?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Do you not think that on that final day, the Judgement Day of the Great White Throne Judgment, that ALL present will repent?
Do you not think that for all eternity in the Lake of Fire there will be repentance (a change of mind towards God) by those spending their eternity in torment there?

You're being tricky here, DHK, (and I say that with no malice).
I think if ORB says no to both questions, you're going to quote Philippians 2:10.

But even if they do repent, it will be too late.

 

[DHK]

You're being tricky here, DHK, (and I say that with no malice).
I think if ORB says no to both questions, you're going to quote Philippians 2:10.

But even if they do repent, it will be too late.

Agreed. Absolutely. Today is the day of salvation. Tomorrow will be late.
But one day every knee will bow; every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father. Perhaps, even then there may not be true repentance. But in the situation of the rich man and Lazarus, I believe there was repentance on the part of the rich man. He didn't want to stay there, and so it will be with all who end up in the Lake of Fire, but it will be too late.

 

[asterisktom]

Agreed. Absolutely. Today is the day of salvation. Tomorrow will be late.
But one day every knee will bow; every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father. Perhaps, even then there may not be true repentance. But in the situation of the rich man and Lazarus, I believe there was repentance on the part of the rich man. He didn't want to stay there, and so it will be with all who end up in the Lake of Fire, but it will be too late.

There can be no repentance without the working of God. God's Spirit grants repentance. Those in hell - like the rich man - are forever beyond God's gracious working, thus, cannot repent.

They can - and most certainly do - regret their actions and life course (METAMELOMAI).
They can not repent (METANOEO).

Repentance is much more than just changing of the mind. A careful study of these two words will bear this out.

 

[pinoybaptist]

There can be no repentance without the working of God. God's Spirit grants repentance. Those in hell - like the rich man - are forever beyond God's gracious working, thus, cannot repent.

In connection with what you said, who would be those "under the earth" ?

 

[asterisktom]

In connection with what you said, who would be those "under the earth" ?

There will be many unfortunates who have died in their sins. They, too, will bow before Christ, acknowledging Him as Lord. Yet it will bowing out of constraint, not repentance.

 

[DHK]

There can be no repentance without the working of God. God's Spirit grants repentance. Those in hell - like the rich man - are forever beyond God's gracious working, thus, cannot repent.

That is not true. My children have often repented of what they have done. And it is not just regret. It also does not involve the Spirit of God. Repentance is a change of mind.
If there is no repentance there is no forgiveness. However, often when there is repentance there is still no forgiveness because the repentance came to late, as is the case with those who face God at the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[Amy.G]

Repentance is much more than just changing of the mind. A careful study of these two words will bear this out.

All definitions of repentance that I have found clearly say that repentance is a change of mind. Where do you find a different definition?

 

[asterisktom]

That is not true. My children have often repented of what they have done. And it is not just regret.

And I have no problem believing that they did repent. I am just not sure what that has to do with the subject.

It also does not involve the Spirit of God.

Oh, I hope, for your children's sake that it did involve the Spirit of God. Otherwise we are not talking of true repentance. Sorrow, even godly sorrow, does not reach to "salvation not to be regretted", 2 Cor. 7:10.

Consider the case of Esau in Heb. 12:17. Surely you see that this is more than change of mind?

Acts 5:31; 11:18; Rom. 2:4; 2 Tim. 2:25 all show that it is God's prerogative to grant repentance. It certainly does involve the Spirit of God. For salvation to be of the Lord, as Jonah confesses, this essential component of salvation must be of Him also, otherwise there would be certain cause for boasting in those who are saved.

Take a look especially at that 2 Tim. 2:25-26:

"in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

Notice that there are three results of this repentance: 1. A full knowledge [EPIGNOSIS] of the truth, 2. spiritual return to senses, 3. freedom from the Devil's bondage.

But all of these are contingent on the will of God, the mode in the Greek here not at all giving 100 percent certainty this will happen in this particular case.

 

[asterisktom]

All definitions of repentance that I have found clearly say that repentance is a change of mind. Where do you find a different definition?

Hello Amy,

Please take a look at the comments I wrote to DHK. Hopefully they answer your question.

 

[DHK]

And I have no problem believing that they did repent. I am just not sure what that has to do with the subject.

The subject is repentance not salvation. Those in hell can repent without being saved.

Oh, I hope, for your children's sake that it did involve the Spirit of God. Otherwise we are not talking of true repentance. Sorrow, even godly sorrow, does not reach to "salvation not to be regretted", 2 Cor. 7:10.

You are taking Scripture out of context. 2Cor.7 doesn't speak of regeneration or salvation in any context whatsoever. It speaks of a believer's repentance from specific sin. 1John 1:9 speaks about the same thing. Why confess your sins unless you have repented of them first? Repentance is for believers as well.

Consider the case of Esau in Heb. 12:17. Surely you see that this is more than change of mind?

No, it isn't. Consider another translation: the WEB

Hebrews 12:17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears.

It was a heart issue. There was no place in his heart for a change of mind. And there was no place in his father's heart for a change of mind. The decision had already been made. The tears were not those of one seeking true repentance for he had already determined in his heart to kill his brother.

Acts 5:31; 11:18; Rom. 2:4; 2 Tim. 2:25 all show that it is God's prerogative to grant repentance. It certainly does involve the Spirit of God. For salvation to be of the Lord, as Jonah confesses, this essential component of salvation must be of Him also, otherwise there would be certain cause for boasting in those who are saved.

God doesn't change his mind. Faith is a prerequisite to salvation. Repentance is the flip side of faith--two sides of the same coin. The construction in Acts 5:31 is much like that in Acts 2:38. God gives remission of sins. Repentance is that "change" which includes remission of sins. There are many such passages, as you have listed. They usually mean that salvation is granted on the basis of repentance.

Take a look especially at that 2 Tim. 2:25-26:

"in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

The subject of the passage is really Timothy and other pastors who need to be teachers--those who need to be humble in their teaching in order that those who are in opposition to the truth may be drawn to the truth.

"If God peradventure will give them repentance, etc."
Give them such a view of the error which they have embraced, and such regret for having embraced it, that they shall be willing to admit the truth. (Barnes)

Their admission of the truth, as Barnes says, results in repentance which is a change of mind whether it be toward sin or toward God, as the case may be.

 

[asterisktom]

The subject is repentance not salvation. Those in hell can repent without being saved.

You are taking Scripture out of context. 2Cor.7 doesn't speak of regeneration or salvation in any context whatsoever. It speaks of a believer's repentance from specific sin. 1John 1:9 speaks about the same thing. Why confess your sins unless you have repented of them first? Repentance is for believers as well.

Doesn't speak of salvation? Do you not see the very word there? Read the whole context, as well.

No, it isn't. Consider another translation: the WEB

Hebrews 12:17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears.

You don't like the verse, so you hunt up a version that has your phrase. Well, that's fine. But your "change of mind" is not in the Greek. Metanoia is.

It was a heart issue. There was no place in his heart for a change of mind. And there was no place in his father's heart for a change of mind. The decision had already been made. The tears were not those of one seeking true repentance for he had already determined in his heart to kill his brother.

I guess you see "mind" and "heart" as interchangeable. Either way, our heart and mind are both so corrupted that God has to save us by His grace, giving us faith to believe, renewed minds to understand, hearts to will and to do of His good pleasure.

God doesn't change his mind. Faith is a prerequisite to salvation. Repentance is the flip side of faith--two sides of the same coin. The construction in Acts 5:31 is much like that in Acts 2:38. God gives remission of sins. Repentance is that "change" which includes remission of sins. There are many such passages, as you have listed. They usually mean that salvation is granted on the basis of repentance.


The subject of the passage is really Timothy and other pastors who need to be teachers--those who need to be humble in their teaching in order that those who are in opposition to the truth may be drawn to the truth.

Their admission of the truth, as Barnes says, results in repentance which is a change of mind whether it be toward sin or toward God, as the case may be.

In all of the above you are basically just ignoring what the Bible says - do you really believe that Acts 5:31 can be so easily explained away?

"Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

God the Father exalted Christ.
Where? to His right hand.
In what capacity? (limiting it just to this verse) To be Prince and Saviour.
To what purpose? to give repentance.
To offer repentance? To enable repentance? No. To give it.

BTW, we have a purposeful but necessarily limited giving of repentance here. To whom is repentance given, according to this verse? to Israel. Not to the whole world, whether collectively or individually.

The Greek is very clear here in Acts 5:31 concerning this granting of repentance. Shall we examine this more closely? I'm not going to do it, however, if you are just going to say, "Well, Doctor so-and-so says otherwise." I purposely left Calvin or Owen out of this, preferring rather to just deal with the text that we both have in front of us.

 

[DHK]

Doesn't speak of salvation? Do you not see the very word there? Read the whole context, as well.

I believe this passage refers to a specific situation. Were it not for the sorrow and repentance over the horrific and ungodly sin mentioned in the first epistle "the salvation" referred to would have been death. It was speaking of a believer disciplined out of the church.

You don't like the verse, so you hunt up a version that has your phrase. Well, that's fine. But your "change of mind" is not in the Greek. Metanoia is.

You can't take the story out of its context. Had Esau repented? No! He had it in his mind to kill his brother. There was no repentance. The tears were not genuine.

I guess you see "mind" and "heart" as interchangeable. Either way, our heart and mind are both so corrupted that God has to save us by His grace, giving us faith to believe, renewed minds to understand, hearts to will and to do of His good pleasure.

See answer above. Esau never repented.
BTW, heart and mind are often used interchangeably in the Bible.
Out of the heart are issues of life, Jesus said.
Yet Paul speaks about the battle being with the mind.
If we don't have faith to believe in God and trust him as Saviour, then God will never give us anything including faith. God doesn't give spiritual gifts to unbelievers.

In all of the above you are basically just ignoring what the Bible says - do you really believe that Acts 5:31 can be so easily explained away?

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
--Let's consider this one.
The life is eternal life. That is what God has granted. How has he granted it? It comes through repentance. It is repentance unto life.
For example:
If I want to go to England the airline will promise me safe passage to England. But I must have a ticket. The promise to England is always there. They have promised me safe passage to England through a ticket.
I have been promised salvation through repentance in Christ.

"Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

The same thing happens here. The promise is forgiveness of sins, but it is through repentance. It is always through repentance/faith.

God the Father exalted Christ.
Where? to His right hand.
In what capacity? (limiting it just to this verse) To be Prince and Saviour.
To what purpose? to give repentance.
To offer repentance? To enable repentance? No. To give it.

God does not give gifts to unsaved men. They must come to Christ on their own accord.

 

[asterisktom]

I believe this passage refers to a specific situation. Were it not for the sorrow and repentance over the horrific and ungodly sin mentioned in the first epistle "the salvation" referred to would have been death. It was speaking of a believer disciplined out of the church.

You can't take the story out of its context. Had Esau repented? No! He had it in his mind to kill his brother. There was no repentance. The tears were not genuine.

See answer above. Esau never repented.
BTW, heart and mind are often used interchangeably in the Bible.
Out of the heart are issues of life, Jesus said.
Yet Paul speaks about the battle being with the mind.
If we don't have faith to believe in God and trust him as Saviour, then God will never give us anything including faith. God doesn't give spiritual gifts to unbelievers.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
--Let's consider this one.
The life is eternal life. That is what God has granted. How has he granted it? It comes through repentance. It is repentance unto life.
For example:
If I want to go to England the airline will promise me safe passage to England. But I must have a ticket. The promise to England is always there. They have promised me safe passage to England through a ticket.
I have been promised salvation through repentance in Christ.

The same thing happens here. The promise is forgiveness of sins, but it is through repentance. It is always through repentance/faith.

God does not give gifts to unsaved men. They must come to Christ on their own accord.

OK. You win. I'm not wasting my time here on this. You either see it or you don't.