How Do They Know?

[OldRegular]

DHK

If you know anything you should know that conscience is not a reliable guide to almost anything. The conscience of a head hunter in Borneo is certainly different than the conscience of a Jew at the time of Jesus Christ. The conscience of an Emperor worshipper in pre war Japan was certainly of the conscience of the average American.

Also for your information conscience has nothing to do with regeneration. Regeneration is solely the work of the Holy Spirit. See what error you are drawn into when you make man the author and finisher of his faith rather than Jesus Christ as Scripture teaches!

 

[Winman]

As I said, I don't call myself a Calvinist.

However, your statement is not hard to refute. John 20:31 doesn't specificallly say "spiritual" life. It says "life".

I believe this passage is speaking of eternal life with God, not spiritual life that is the gift of God at regeneration.

I disagree with Hodge's statement about "instantaneous" conversion.

I see salvation as a process. It takes more or less time according to God's purpose with that individual.

peace to youraying:

What kinds of life are there? There is physical life and spiritual life. The persons spoken of in John 20:31 are obviously physically alive, so he can only be speaking of being born again, spiritual life.

 

[OldRegular]

Calvinism teaches that a man must be regenerated or made spiritually alive before they can even have the ability to desire and understand God's word, be convicted, repent, or believe.

Scripture teaches that man is spiritually dead, separated from GOD, and must be regenerated or born again before he can respond in faith to the Gospel call. So Calvinism is correct on this point.

 

[Winman]

Scripture teaches that man is spiritually dead, separated from GOD, and must be regenerated or born again before he can respond in faith to the Gospel call. So Calvinism is correct on this point.

That is not what the scriptures teach.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

What is the first thing mentioned here? It is the scriptures, the word of God (But these are written). Why are they written? That ye might believe. Faith comes from hearing the word of God. What happens if you believe? You have life, and this is absolutely speaking of spiritual life.

Once again, the scriptures clearly show this order in salvation:

#1 Hear the word of God
#2 Believe the word of God
#3 Receive the Holy Spirit and be regenerated or made spiritually alive.

I have shown you so many examples of this from scripture, but you choose to ignore this plain truth.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman, DHK

You continue to recycle the same Scripture but have yet to address the cahllenge of the OP: Since Salvation is a Supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to receive Jesus Christ?

Also what is it about your character, morals, conscience, etc. that distinguishes you from those who reject the Gospel. Perhaps if you could answer that question you could change the mind of every Calvinist on this Forum and make them Freewillers.

 

[DHK]

Scripture teaches that man is spiritually dead, separated from GOD, and must be regenerated or born again before he can respond in faith to the Gospel call. So Calvinism is correct on this point.

I keep asking OR, Biwald, and many others the definition of "dead," but get no answer. Do you actually mean a person must be a dead corpse and the resurrection take place before he can be regenerated? What does "dead" mean?

If death simply means separation from God, as you infer, then what is it that hinders a man from crying out to God by faith that that separation might be reconciled. There is nothing. Death is not annihilation. It is not lifelessness. It is simple separation--a separation that can be bridged and is bridged through the blood of Jesus Christ. Once you fasten yourself to the definition of "death" and get away from this "dead corpse" idea, then regeneration will make sense to you and you can see how it is possible to take place at the same time of man and God being reconciled at the time of atonement or justification. It is all a one-time act; one time event in history. There was no process that took place when 3,000 were saved and regenerated immediately on the Day of Pentecost. They heard the Word and were regenerated and saved, then baptized and added to the church. The regeneration and salvation were one and the same thing. It all happened the same day.

 

[OldRegular]

That is not what the scriptures teach.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Winman you can't seem to get it through your hear that Calvinism teaches that faith is essential to Salvation. One thing is certain. Those whom God chooses unto Salvation in Jesus Christ and regenerates Will in GOD's own good time be glorified.


Philippians 1:6, KJV
6/ Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[OldRegular]

I keep asking OR, Biwald, and many others the definition of "dead," but get no answer. Do you actually mean a person must be a dead corpse and the resurrection take place before he can be regenerated? What does "dead" mean?

That question is so juvenile it does not warrant a response.

 

[DHK]

That question is so juvenile it does not warrant a response.

So I take it to mean that you don't have that ability, or don't know the answer.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman, DHK

You continue to recycle the same Scripture but have yet to address the cahllenge of the OP: Since Salvation is a Supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to receive Jesus Christ?

Also what is it about your character, morals, conscience, etc. that distinguishes you from those who reject the Gospel. Perhaps if you could answer that question you could change the mind of every Calvinist on this Forum and make them Freewillers.

 

[DHK]

Winman, DHK

You continue to recycle the same Scripture but have yet to address the cahllenge of the OP: Since Salvation is a Supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to receive Jesus Christ?

Also what is it about your character, morals, conscience, etc. that distinguishes you from those who reject the Gospel. Perhaps if you could answer that question you could change the mind of every Calvinist on this Forum and make them Freewillers.

I have answered your questions. Time for you to answer mine.

 

[OldRegular]

So I take it to mean that you don't have that ability, or don't know the answer.

Take it any way you like. If you were as wise about Scripture as you pretend you would be familiar with the pronouncement of Jesus Christ:

John 5:25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Now I ask you O Wise One: Was Jesus Christ talking about a bodily resurrection or a spiritual resurrection?

 

[DHK]

Take it any way you like. If you were as wise about Scripture as you pretend you would be familiar with the pronouncement of Jesus Christ:

John 5:25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Now I ask you O Wise One: Was Jesus Christ talking about a bodily resurrection or a spiritual resurrection?

Here is the verse I am speaking of:

Ephesians 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

Is he speaking of a bodily resurrection here? What does the word "dead" mean? Why the failure to answer this question?

 

[Winman]

Winman, DHK

You continue to recycle the same Scripture but have yet to address the cahllenge of the OP: Since Salvation is a Supernatural work of God how do those who hold the doctrine of Freewillism know that God has not performed an act of Grace in their life and given them the Faith to receive Jesus Christ?

Also what is it about your character, morals, conscience, etc. that distinguishes you from those who reject the Gospel. Perhaps if you could answer that question you could change the mind of every Calvinist on this Forum and make them Freewillers.

I do believe my salvation was a work of grace from God, but not in the same way you do. First, I believe God sought me out. I was a boy who lived in a not very religious family. We did not go to church very often at all. But a neighbor who was a former missionary asked if she could take myself and older brother to church. We were allowed and went, and that day the preacher preached a powerful sermon on sin and hell. I was very convicted by this preaching and went down at the invitation. There they again showed me I was a sinner and that Jesus died for my sins and asked if I wanted to receive Jesus as my saviour. I did, and prayed for Jesus to save me. That is my testimony.

I truly believe God sent my neighbor to seek me out that day. We moved soon after and I may have never been saved if not for that day. And I believe the sermon that preacher preached that day convicted me, in fact, I know it did.

And then the scriptures told me I could accept Christ and I did.

Where I differ from you is that I believe the spiritually dead can hear, understand and believe the gospel.

Hearing the gospel doesn't save you, and even your faith doesn't save you, it is Jesus that saves you. He has all the power, I have nothing. But when you come to Jesus in dependence he saves you just as he healed the blind and lame that came to him.

Did the blind and lame have to be healed before they came to Christ? Or did they come just as they were, blind and lame and helpless? And when they asked for Jesus's mercy in complete dependence upon him he healed them. So faith will draw you to Jesus, but it is Jesus himself who heals you.

And the blind and lame came because they heard of Jesus. God did not zap them. They heard how he was healing all those who came to him with sicknesses. This created faith and hope that he would heal them too. So again, it is hearing the word of God, or hearing of Jesus that creates faith in the heart. But it is not some magical, mystical force. Even unsaved people have the ability to believe what they hear as truth, or reject it as falsehood.

God's word first convicted me. Then God's word gave me faith and hope that Jesus would save me if I called on him. But it was Jesus himself who saved me when I did come to him, I have no power whatsoever.

 

[canadyjd]

What kinds of life are there? There is physical life and spiritual life. The persons spoken of in John 20:31 are obviously physically alive, so he can only be speaking of being born again, spiritual life.

I am pretty certain that scripture also speaks of "eternal life" and a "resurrected life".

John 20:31 is speaking of eternal life.

peace to youraying:

 

[zrs6v4]

Here is the verse I am speaking of:

Ephesians 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

Is he speaking of a bodily resurrection here? What does the word "dead" mean? Why the failure to answer this question?

I would say spiritually dead means:

1. Spiritually dead to good works before God including fully trusting Him at our first good move to Christ at salvation. (I dont mean giving to charity or helping people)
2. spiritually blind of God to a point of not reacting to Gospel call in saving faith
3. Unable to understand God's messages to a point of saving faith because of the great degree of deceit and self-justification efforts in our hearts.
4. spiritually seperated from God because of unholiness (sins) and heading to judgment and wrath.
5. It does not mean the spirit is totally unresponsive like a dead corpse, but rather only responsive to its sin nature and unresponsive to a God pleasing state until God's Spirit does something. So the soul has a disease called sin and seperation and it is fully affected in every way.

At this point I think that when the Scriptures compare our souls to dead corpses I think the point is that we are totally not good in anyway. In the very bottom of our hearts we only breathe out Idolatry and hate of God's ways, even if we think we have good intentions or we are sincere- We need God in deeper ways than we can understand.

So in Ephesians I think the key is that we are 100% bought by sin and not turning back until God does something- all of us were Satan's children so to speak. At this point I am in a dilemma with regeneration and the calling from God, but it is very minor as they both do the same thing in my mind. Whether the Spirit makes us alive so we can understand the Gospel or He just effectually shows us (teaches) by the same command He made the universe, I am not sure. In either case the work of the Spirit is unfailing in its depths according to God's secrets.

I think John 5:25 can be easily misunderstood because Jesus goes from speaking of the present reality of eternal life to the final judgment. So here are the options that I can see, either:

1. Jesus is talking about the end of time when all who hear his voice will come to judgment. This must mean the final summon of all people to be judged good or bad. This could be thought because of what Jesus says later. I dont think this is what He means in this verse though.

2. Jesus is talking about eternal life offered to all people when He says the "dead will hear". I have heard people use this to say that Jesus says that the dead can hear. I disagree because within this very verse Jesus says that those "who hear WILL LIVE". If all dead people hear and live then nobody is going to hell (universalism). I disagree with this as well.

3. I think Jesus is specifically talking about His sheep who He is to bless with eternal life. They WILL hear and WILL Live even though they are dead like everyone else. This is because in some sovereign way (some say regeneration) God will cause people who are spiritually dead to hear and understand and believe the gospel willingly. This is very similar to His comment in John 10 about the Sheep who will "hear His voice and WILL LIVE" even though they are presently dead in sin or not born yet.

 

[Winman]

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

I have seen Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracer's use this verse several times to attempt to prove that God must regenerate a man before he has the ability to seek God, understand scripture, repent, and trust on Christ.

The problem is, this verse does not say one word about that. It is simply saying that we as sinners who were spiritually dead in sins have been quickened and made alive.

Every non-Cal believes this. When I trusted Christ as a lost sinner the Holy Spirit came into me and washed me of my sins and quickened me spiritually.

Calvinists read far more into this verse than it says. It says nothing about the order of events in salvation whatsoever. This verse does not prove the Calvinistic doctrine concerning the order of events in salvation whatsoever.

 

[OldRegular]

Here is the verse I am speaking of:

Ephesians 2:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

Is he speaking of a bodily resurrection here? What does the word "dead" mean? Why the failure to answer this question?

Surely you jest! So you think the Apostle Paul had taken leave of his senses and was writing a letter to those dead and in their graves; and then the Church Fathers included it in the Canon of Scripture?:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

I have seen Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracer's use this verse several times to attempt to prove that God must regenerate a man before he has the ability to seek God, understand scripture, repent, and trust on Christ.

The problem is, this verse does not say one word about that. It is simply saying that we as sinners who were spiritually dead in sins have been quickened and made alive.

Every non-Cal believes this. When I trusted Christ as a lost sinner the Holy Spirit came into me and washed me of my sins and quickened me spiritually.

Calvinists read far more into this verse than it says. It says nothing about the order of events in salvation whatsoever. This verse does not prove the Calvinistic doctrine concerning the order of events in salvation whatsoever.

Winman

You need to read the entire passage, Ephesians 2:1-10.

Verse 8 tells us that after GOD gave spiritual life to those who were spiritually dead HE gave them the gift of faith by which they would believe the Gospel Call.

 

[DHK]

Surely you jest! So you think the Apostle Paul had taken leave of his senses and was writing a letter to those dead and in their graves; and then the Church Fathers included it in the Canon of Scripture?:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

No, but if that is what you are suggesting then you have taken leave of your senses.
You have avoided the question. You circle around it. You play with words. Your game is semantics and not theology.
The Ephesians were spiritually dead, and you still can't explain what that means, can you?
What does it mean when Paul says: "You were dead" (Eph.2:1)