How Do They Know?

[canadyjd]

That's not what I want to know. Calvinists are always accusing me of misrepresenting Calvinism, so I am asking you directly what you believe.

Why does a regenerated person have to have faith? Don't they already have everlasting life the moment they are regenerated?

First, I don't call myself a "calvinist".

That said, I thought I already stated what I believe quite clearly. Salvation is a process that is a work of God. Salvation is appropriated by faith.

So yes, a regenerated person must exercise faith in Jesus Christ to appropriate salvation. Once they have exercised faith, Holy Spirit indwells permenantly.

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

Scripture states that GOD gives the gift of Faith to those he has regenerated. That is sufficient for me. If it is not for you then you have a problem!

We have gone through this before Winman. There are a number of things that occur in Salvation; you know like election, regeneration, conversion, repentance, forgiveness, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification.

We go around in circles here.
First you differentiate between regeneration and conversion, when both are speaking of the same event. Both require faith, and God does not give that faith. God does not give faith to the unregenerate or the unconverted or the unsaved or the unadopted or those that are not justified. God does not give faith to those who have not come to salvation by faith in him. The gift of faith is a spiritual gift that is given to believers only. To demonstrate otherwise you have yet to do. You have yet to give one Scripture that shows God gives faith to the unsaved. It is an unscriptural concept.

 

[Winman]

So yes, a regenerated person must exercise faith in Jesus Christ to appropriate salvation. Once they have exercised faith, Holy Spirit indwells permenantly.

Wait a minute, what do you mean once you have exercised faith the Holy Spirit indwells permanently? Jesus said he would give the Comforter or Holy Spirit and he would abide with us forever.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

If the Holy Spirit enters a man and regenerates him, he already has the Spirit which will abide forever. We already have eternal life. So why would we need to repent or believe on Christ? It is unnecessary.

 

[OldRegular]

We go around in circles here.
First you differentiate between regeneration and conversion, when both are speaking of the same event.

You are incorrect DHK. Regeneration and conversion are not the same thing. It is you who are running around in circles chasing your tail.

Regeneration

The initial event in salvation of the elect is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are given the gift of saving faith [Ephesians 2:1-8]. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the Gospel Call.

Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel Call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience.

 

[canadyjd]

Wait a minute, what do you mean once you have exercised faith the Holy Spirit indwells permanently? Jesus said he would give the Comforter or Holy Spirit and he would abide with us forever.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

If the Holy Spirit enters a man and regenerates him, he already has the Spirit which will abide forever.

I don't see anywhere in scripture that Holy Spirit must "enter" or "indwell" a man in order to regenerate him. Nor does Holy Spirit have to "enter" or "indwell" a man to convict him of sin. Nor does Holy Spirit have to "enter" or "indwell" a man to draw him to Jesus.

All of these works, IMHO, Holy Spirit does prior to the permanent indwelling which accompanies salvation.

We already have eternal life. So why would we need to repent or believe on Christ? It is unnecessary.

That is not what I believe. Scripture is clear that salvation is appropriated by faith.

peace to youraying:

 

[OldRegular]

If the Holy Spirit enters a man and regenerates him, he already has the Spirit which will abide forever. We already have eternal life. So why would we need to repent or believe on Christ? It is unnecessary.

You are wrong Wiman, Scripture states that we must believe and repent. That should be sufficient.

 

[Skandelon]

You are wrong Wiman, Scripture states that we must believe and repent. That should be sufficient.

Yeah Winman, when the apostles said, "Repent and believe so that you may be saved." They really meant, "If you are saved you will repent and believe." Duh! Anybody would know that if they would just read the footnotes of a Geneva study bible. See, that is your problem. You have the wrong bible.:laugh:

 

[Winman]

You are wrong Wiman, Scripture states that we must believe and repent. That should be sufficient.

Why? If you have already been regenerated or quickened, made alive, born again, and the Holy Spirit is going to abide with you forever, what need is there to repent and believe on Jesus?

And if this is so, then it is not repenting and trusting on Jesus that gives you life. No, it is regeneration which you do not believe faith is necessary for that gives you everlasting life.

This is what I have been trying to get across for months. This doctrine makes the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ meaningless and even unnecessary. The scriptures are meaningless and unnecessay too. God just makes you alive simply because he elected to before the foundation of the world.

 

[Winman]

I don't see anywhere in scripture that Holy Spirit must "enter" or "indwell" a man in order to regenerate him. Nor does Holy Spirit have to "enter" or "indwell" a man to convict him of sin. Nor does Holy Spirit have to "enter" or "indwell" a man to draw him to Jesus.

All of these works, IMHO, Holy Spirit does prior to the permanent indwelling which accompanies salvation.

Well, this is certainly different from what most of the other Calvinists here believe. You are actually in agreement to what I believe here except the "regeneration". I do not believe the Holy Spirit enters a man and regenerates him until he repents and trusts on Jesus Christ.

But you still believe the calling and drawing of the Holy Spirit is irresistable don't you? You do not believe the Holy Spirit can be resisted do you?

And you still have the same problem OR has. If a man is regenerated, which means quickened, born again, made alive, then why does a person need to repent or believe on Christ?

 

[Winman]

Yeah Winman, when the apostles said, "Repent and believe so that you may be saved." They really meant, "If you are saved you will repent and believe." Duh! Anybody would know that if they would just read the footnotes of a Geneva study bible. See, that is your problem. You have the wrong bible.:laugh:

As I've pointed out many times, Calvinists understand scripture in the exact reverse of what it really says.

 

[OldRegular]

This doctrine makes the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ meaningless and even unnecessary. The scriptures are meaningless and unnecessay too. God just makes you alive simply because he elected to before the foundation of the world.

That statement shows a complete ignorance of the necessity of the death of Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of those God will bring to salvation. Are you so ignorant of what Scripture says to believe that GOD could save sinful man unless someone paid the penalty for sin. I suggest that you spend some time studying the following Scripture. If you cannot understand it get someone, perhaps your pastor, to explain it to you.

Romans 3:23-26
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Can you understand from the above Scripture why faith in Jesus Christ is essential to Salvation? No one on this Forum who believes in the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation has ever stated that faith was not essential to Salvation. All we have stated is that sinful man will not come to Jesus Christ for Salvation unless and until God the Holy Spirit performs an act of Grace in his life. That act of Grace Scripture calls the new birth or regeneration.

 

[canadyjd]

Well, this is certainly different from what most of the other Calvinists here believe. You are actually in agreement to what I believe here except the "regeneration". I do not believe the Holy Spirit enters a man and regenerates him until he repents and trusts on Jesus Christ.

And so, we disagree.

But you still believe the calling and drawing of the Holy Spirit is irresistable don't you? You do not believe the Holy Spirit can be resisted do you?

I believe God is able to bring everyone He wants to salvation. I don't believe He needs to hold back His influence to preserve someone's "free-will".

And you still have the same problem OR has. If a man is regenerated, which means quickened, born again, made alive, then why does a person need to repent or believe on Christ?

Because salvation is appropriated by faith in Jesus Christ. The fact that regeneration precedes salvation (though not indwelling) doesn't change the method God has ordained to bring His children to salvation.

peace to youraying:

 

[OldRegular]

As I've pointed out many times, Calvinists understand scripture in the exact reverse of what it really says.

No Winman! We believe and understand all of Scripture as it addresses Salvation. It is not clear that you understand any of it or you would not make asinine statements that the doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation

Originally Posted by Winman
makes the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ meaningless and even unnecessary.

 

[Winman]

And so, we disagree.I believe God is able to bring everyone He wants to salvation. I don't believe He needs to hold back His influence to preserve someone's "free-will". Because salvation is appropriated by faith in Jesus Christ. The fact that regeneration precedes salvation (though not indwelling) doesn't change the method God has ordained to bring His children to salvation.
peace to youraying:

Well, I know that there is variation among Calvinists, but here is part of an article written by A.A. Hodge on the subject of regeneration.

Regeneration is therefore essentially the communication of a new spiritual life, and is properly called a 'new birth.' (2) As to its efficient cause: It is effected by divine power acting supernaturally and immediately upon the soul, quickening it to spiritual life, and implanting gracious principles of action. (3) As to man's action: Conversion (conversio actualis) instantly follows, as the change of action consequent upon the change of character, and consists in repentance, faith, holy obedience, etc.

According to this Calvinist writer, a person is made spiritually alive before repentance, faith, holy obedience.

So, it is not repenting and believing on Christ that brings spiritual life, no these actions follow being made spiritually alive.

This absolutely contradicts scripture.

The scriptures say a man must believe before receiving spiritual life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

So Calvinism teaches that regeneration gives a man spiritual life which enables him to believe, but the scriptures teach you must first believe before you might have spiritual life.

 

[DHK]

You are incorrect DHK. Regeneration and conversion are not the same thing. It is you who are running around in circles chasing your tail.

Regeneration

The initial event in salvation of the elect is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are given the gift of saving faith [Ephesians 2:1-8]. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the Gospel Call.

I don't know where you get your definitions from. They are odd. They are also contradictory. The definition here of regeneration ignores "conscience." What about "conscience" OR? What have you to say about it?
Let me quote to you what A.H. Strong says about "conscience"

A.H. Strong says: “Conscience recognizes the existence of a moral law which has supreme authority; known violations of this law are followed by feelings of ill desert and fears of judgment; this moral law, since it is not self imposed, and these threats of judgment, since they are not self-executing, respectively argue the existence of a holy will that has imposed that law, and of a punitive power that will execute the threats of the moral nature” (p.82).

The conscience of man, described in Romans 2:14,15 recognizes God's moral law and is able to differentiate between right and wrong. He knows when he does wrong. He is able to choose that which is right. Like the Jews that Stephen was speaking to: they were able to resist the Holy Spirit or to accept Him. In Stephen's time, they resisted the Holy Spirit, rejected Christ, and crucified Him--all out of their own free will. They were convicted of the Holy Spirit, yes. But God didn't hold a knife to their throat and force them. It was their choice.

And speaking about a knife held to one's throat...What happened on the Day of Pentecost when 3.000 were both regenerated and saved at the same time. It always takes place at the same time. Look at what it says:


Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

--It is called the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
--It is called resisting the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
--Again, conviction of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was drawing them. But they refused and stoned Stephen instead. Not all that the Holy Spirit draws are regenerated. Not all that the Holy Spirit draws will be saved. Not all that the Holy Spirit draws are the elect. The Holy Spirit can be resisted.

I ask you--in your definition above, please define "those who are spiritually dead."
In Ephesians 2:1, did Paul write to dead corpses? What does the word "dead" mean?

 

[David Michael Harris]

Salvation is appropriated by faith in Jesus Christ, upon hearing His gospel. (I Cor. 1:20-21 or so).

That is why the gospel is necessary. That is why the presence of Holy Spirit is necessary, prior to salvation. Call it "drawing" or regeneration or conviction, whatever. Without Holy Spirit, their is no coming to Christ in salvation.

It is part of the process of salvation that displays the "wisdom of God".

The Spirit transforms us so that we will believe the truth of the gospel.

After salvation, the Spirit indwells permanently.

peace to youraying:

I would say that regeneration is after and a end result of the other two words, drawing, conviction. I would say we are born again after the drawing and conviction. When we believe. Believe and your life will change for ever.

 

[Winman]

--It is called the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the men on Pentacost were deeply convicted of their sin by Peter's preaching and repented. The men in Acts 7 were also deeply convicted but rebelled against the preaching of Stephen. They hardened their hearts and became angry and obstinate, much like Pharaoh when God poured out his plagues on Egypt.

Calvinism teaches that a man must be regenerated or made spiritually alive before they can even have the ability to desire and understand God's word, be convicted, repent, or believe.

But the scriptures teach exactly the opposite.

Psa 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Psa 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

The scriptures teach it is the word of God that quickens a man. A man must first hear and believe the word of God before the spirit quickens him.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Here Jesus said it is the spirit that quickens or makes a man spiritually alive, but then he explains it is his Word that is spirit and life. But you have to believe them. The men Jesus was speaking to did not.

And this explains verse 65. Jesus is saying that no man can come to Christ unless he hears and believes the word of God that was given to them.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

It is true that no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him, but then Jesus explains how God draws men. It is with his Word, the holy scriptures. He says every man that "hath heard", this is, everyman who listens and believes, and has learned from the scriptures comes to Jesus.

Calvinism reverses this and says a man is spiritually quickened before he will have the ability to desire or believe the scriptures.

 

[canadyjd]

Well, I know that there is variation among Calvinists, but here is part of an article written by A.A. Hodge on the subject of regeneration.....According to this Calvinist writer, a person is made spiritually alive before repentance, faith, holy obedience...

The scriptures say a man must believe before receiving spiritual life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

So Calvinism teaches that regeneration gives a man spiritual life which enables him to believe, but the scriptures teach you must first believe before you might have spiritual life.

As I said, I don't call myself a Calvinist.

However, your statement is not hard to refute. John 20:31 doesn't specificallly say "spiritual" life. It says "life".

I believe this passage is speaking of eternal life with God, not spiritual life that is the gift of God at regeneration.

I disagree with Hodge's statement about "instantaneous" conversion.

I see salvation as a process. It takes more or less time according to God's purpose with that individual.

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

I see salvation as a process. It takes more or less time according to God's purpose with that individual.

peace to youraying:

How can it be a process when on the day of Pentecost 3,000 were saved (instantaneously) when they heard the word of God (and were saved), then baptized, and added to the church that same day. All of these were Jews that had come to the Feast of Pentecost. It is without doubt that some of these were the very ones that had crucified Christ or at least sentenced him to be crucified.
There was no process as you read the account here.

 

[OldRegular]

How can it be a process when on the day of Pentecost 3,000 were saved (instantaneously) when they heard the word of God (and were saved), then baptized, and added to the church that same day. All of these were Jews that had come to the Feast of Pentecost. It is without doubt that some of these were the very ones that had crucified Christ or at least sentenced him to be crucified.
There was no process as you read the account here.

If you read all of Acts you will see a number of events occurring, particularly the receiving of the Holy Spirit, that are no longer the norm for believers.

There is nothing in Scripture.that states that conversion cannot immediately follow regeneration but there is nothing in Scripture that says it must. Even you DHK must admit that Pentecost was a once in a lifetime event.