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How Do They Know?

Winman

Active Member
Since you are quoting from Scripture as recorded by the Apostle Paul why don't you believe what he says when he writes:

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the unregenerate man FYI!

That verse is pulled out of context. I explained this to you a couple of months ago. You have to read both chapters 1 and 2 to understand this specific verse.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;


If you read chapter 1 you will understand 2:14 better. Paul is speaking of natural man. Yes, he is an unbeliever and does not have the Holy Ghost, but that is not the reason the gospel is foolishness to him.

You are well aware of this type of person. This is a humanist. They try to explain everything in natural terms, and assign a natural cause to everything. This is how the Greeks were. The Greeks were known especially for humanistic philosophy, the effects of Greece are very prominent in the world today.

The first thing 1 Cor 2:14 says it that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. The natural man can hear the words and understand their meaning just as well as you and I do. You can hear people on TV make fun of the gospel. They understand who Jesus is, they know we believe he died for our sins. They understand what that means, but it is foolishness to them. Most natural men do not even believe in God, or believe that one religion is as good as another. So, they don't even bother listening to it. To them it is silly superstition.

Now that said, even if they did try to read it and understand it, they would have great difficulty. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals what the word of God says. It is difficult for Christians to understand the scriptures properly, it would be nearly impossible for them. It really will not make a whole lot of sense to them.

But the gospel is simple. The scriptures say a child can understand the gospel and be saved. God did not make the gospel complicated.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Here Paul says to Timothy that he has known the holy scriptures from a child. And he says the scriptures are able to make a child wise unto salvation.

So, even an unsaved child can hear the gospel and understand, and if he believes it he will be saved. He had to be unsaved, because salvation is the last thing mentioned in the order shown.

Notice it does not say a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, it says the scriptures are able to make him wise unto salvation.

What does 2 Tim 3:15 show first? Faith? Nope, the scriptures. What next? Faith. What last? Salvation.

It is always #1 Word of God, #2 Believe, #3 Receive Holy Spirit and be regenerated. Always.

So, you can take 1 Cor 2:14 out of context and try to teach that it is saying it is impossible that the unregenerate can understand the scriptures, but that is not what it is saying.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Yes, he is an unbeliever and does not have the Holy Ghost, but that is not the reason the gospel is foolishness to him.

<snip>

The first thing 1 Cor 2:14 says it that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.

You got two things correct. Keep working at it.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
That makes the score 2 to 0.

Your math skills are as poor as your understanding of salvation. You concede that the natural man cannot understand the things of GOD but insist this man of his own free will can become a child of GOD. Do you understand how foolish that is?
 

Winman

Active Member
Your math skills are as poor as your understanding of salvation. You concede that the natural man cannot understand the things of GOD but insist this man of his own free will can become a child of GOD. Do you understand how foolish that is?

The natural man can understand the gospel. That is why I showed 2 Timothy 3:15

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul himself believed a child can know the holy scriptures which are able to make one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ.

The natural man cannot understand the meat of the word, be he can understand the milk.

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.


The Philipian jailer asked what he had to do to be saved. Paul simply said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house".

He heard and understood the word of God, believed, and was regenerated.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Winman

You are putting words into the passage 1 Corinthians 2:14 that are not there.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The passage says nothing about milk and meat. The natural man is the man who is spiritually dead and can do nothing until regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given the faith to respond to the Gospel Call.
 

Winman

Active Member
Winman

You are putting words into the passage 1 Corinthians 2:14 that are not there.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The passage says nothing about milk and meat. The natural man is the man who is spiritually dead and can do nothing until regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given the faith to respond to the Gospel Call.

You are correct, the passage does not say anything about the meat and milk. But unsaved man can understand the gospel. The gospel is simple.

Many unsaved people know a great deal about the scriptures. There are Catholics that are not saved that nevertheless can discuss doctrine that would go right over our heads. Millions of unsaved people can tell you the Ten Commandments.

So, this does not mean that unsaved man cannot undertand the scriptures whatsoever. You would have to deny reality to say that. Go to some evolution website and see how they make fun of the six day creation account. They know quite clearly what Genesis 1 says and mock it. It is foolishness to them.

Here is an article from a Vatican astronomer who says the Creation account if superstition.

The belief that God created the universe in six days is an unfounded superstition that both discredits religious faith and demeans science, the Vatican astronomer Guy J. Consolmagno SJ has declared.

Consolmagno, a Jesuit priest who in his scientific work has pioneered the field of gravitoelectrodynamics, described creationism, which proponents want taught in schools alongside or in place of evolution, as a ìkind of paganismî.

Far from being a Christian viewpoint, it harks back to primitive beliefs in ìnature godsî who were held responsible for natural events, he commented.

He added that a ìdestructive mythî has developed in modern societies that religion and science are competing ideologies ñ and that this is fed by creationism, which scholars say is a distortion of the biblical texts it claims as its own.

Fr Consolmagno works in the Vatican observatory in Arizona. He is also curator of the Vatican meteorite collection in Italy. In addition to his work in astronomy, he studied philosophy and theology at Loyola University, Chicago, and physics at the University of Chicago. He has spent several terms as a visiting scientist at the Goddard Space Flight Center.

This is a perfect example of a natural man described by Paul. He is worldly and looks for natural explanations. He trusts in human wisdom over the revelations of scripture.

But this man probably understands a great deal of scripture but doesn't believe it.
 
I found God's grace quite irresistible I could not ignore such a Divine person and a beautiful and wonderful offer but I still opened the door to Him and that was after some weeks of conviction. Ultimately I can't quite get my head around it. I tend to look at it as a man drowning who knows he is in big trouble and a hand is offered to him. You would be have to be completely crazy not to reach for that hand. We do resist I think, but as to resisting something as beautiful as God I would say it's just not possible.


And that's the mystery of it. We resist because man is naturally rebellious, but when God's grace sheds light on the darkness of a man's darkened soul, His love and mercy break the sinner and open the heart to respond.

Can man recieve this new birth apart from God? Can man in himself, darkened in his sin, seek God?

So many questions and so many scriptural answers that man can barely comprehend the magnificence of the work of the the cross.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
So do the demons.
Salvation is not just an academic exercise.

You freewillers have made Salvation an academic exercise. I said in the OP that Salvation is a supernatural work of GOD.

That being said you are late with your snide remark DHK. Check my post #154.

Salvation is not simply believing in the fact of the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. If it were then I suppose one could argue that the demons were saved; but they were not.

Salvation is a supernatural act of God.
 

David Michael Harris

Active Member
And that's the mystery of it. We resist because man is naturally rebellious, but when God's grace sheds light on the darkness of a man's darkened soul, His love and mercy break the sinner and open the heart to respond.

Can man recieve this new birth apart from God? Can man in himself, darkened in his sin, seek God?

So many questions and so many scriptural answers that man can barely comprehend the magnificence of the work of the the cross.

He came to seek and to save that which was lost.

:)
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You freewillers have made Salvation an academic exercise. I said in the OP that Salvation is a supernatural work of GOD.

That being said you are late with your snide remark DHK. Check my post #154.

Salvation is not simply believing in the fact of the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. If it were then I suppose one could argue that the demons were saved; but they were not.

Salvation is a supernatural act of God.
In #154 you quoted Jesus response to Peter's confession of faith, which was basically the revelation of God's Word, that which we have in God's Word today. So I ask you the same unanswered questions again:

How do you know the faith by which you believed was a gift?
And if it is a gift, how do you know it was given by God?
How can you be sure? What evidence do you have?

You claim that this "new birth" supernatural act of God is without faith.
How do you know when and even if it has taken place? What are the indicators? Is it a nice warm glowing all inside you? What happened?

Afterward you say that God gave you faith to believe in order to be saved. How do you know God gave you faith to believe? Maybe you were deceived into thinking that the faith you believed with was given by God. Why couldn't it have come from some other source?
I am not questioning your salvation. It seems that you are using your presuppositions to determine how your salvation took place, and yet can't explain your salvation experience.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
In #154 you quoted Jesus response to Peter's confession of faith, which was basically the revelation of God's Word, that which we have in God's Word today. So I ask you the same unanswered questions again:

How do you know the faith by which you believed was a gift?
And if it is a gift, how do you know it was given by God?
How can you be sure? What evidence do you have?

You claim that this "new birth" supernatural act of God is without faith.
How do you know when and even if it has taken place? What are the indicators? Is it a nice warm glowing all inside you? What happened?

Afterward you say that God gave you faith to believe in order to be saved. How do you know God gave you faith to believe? Maybe you were deceived into thinking that the faith you believed with was given by God. Why couldn't it have come from some other source?
I am not questioning your salvation. It seems that you are using your presuppositions to determine how your salvation took place, and yet can't explain your salvation experience.

Jesus loves me this I know, cause the Bible tells me so.:wavey::wavey::laugh::laugh:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Jesus loves me this I know, cause the Bible tells me so.:wavey::wavey::laugh::laugh:
That is right, and it is what I children. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. I know that I am saved because of the promises of the Word of God. But the Word of God does not differentiate between salvation and the new birth, and you do. The word of God does not teach that faith is given to the unregenerate and you do.
So truthfully, the Bible does not tell you so.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
That is right, and it is what I children. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. I know that I am saved because of the promises of the Word of God. But the Word of God does not differentiate between salvation and the new birth, and you do. The word of God does not teach that faith is given to the unregenerate and you do.
So truthfully, the Bible does not tell you so.

You obviously have no idea what the Bible is teaching about the Sovereignty of GOD in Salvation. Perhaps you should give up on DHK's pride and depend on the Holy Spirit.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
The word of God does not teach that faith is given to the unregenerate and you do.

That is a lie. I have never said that GOD gives faith to the unregenerate. I have said that God regenerates those who are dead in trespass and sin and then given them the gift of faith whereby they believe the Gospel Call. You might try reading Ephesians 2:1-8. You will be amazed!
 

Winman

Active Member
That is a lie. I have never said that GOD gives faith to the unregenerate. I have said that God regenerates those who are dead in trespass and sin and then given them the gift of faith whereby they believe the Gospel Call. You might try reading Ephesians 2:1-8. You will be amazed!

Why does God have to give a regenerated person faith? Don't they already have everlasting life the moment they are regenerated?
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Why does God have to give a regenerated person faith? Don't they already have everlasting life the moment they are regenerated?
Salvation is appropriated by faith in Jesus Christ, upon hearing His gospel. (I Cor. 1:20-21 or so).

That is why the gospel is necessary. That is why the presence of Holy Spirit is necessary, prior to salvation. Call it "drawing" or regeneration or conviction, whatever. Without Holy Spirit, their is no coming to Christ in salvation.

It is part of the process of salvation that displays the "wisdom of God".

The Spirit transforms us so that we will believe the truth of the gospel.

After salvation, the Spirit indwells permanently.

peace to you:praying:
 

Winman

Active Member
That's not what I want to know. Calvinists are always accusing me of misrepresenting Calvinism, so I am asking you directly what you believe.

Why does a regenerated person have to have faith? Don't they already have everlasting life the moment they are regenerated?
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
That's not what I want to know. Calvinists are always accusing me of misrepresenting Calvinism, so I am asking you directly what you believe.

Why does a regenerated person have to have faith? Don't they already have everlasting life the moment they are regenerated?

Scripture states that GOD gives the gift of Faith to those he has regenerated. That is sufficient for me. If it is not for you then you have a problem!

We have gone through this before Winman. There are a number of things that occur in Salvation; you know like election, regeneration, conversion, repentance, forgiveness, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification.
 
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