Explain why God is patient with men if indeed men have nothing to do with being saved

[Skandelon]

:thumbs:

But that is not the sense of the passage whatsoever. It is God's word itself that says she worshipped God.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Lydia was a true worshipper of God just as Cornelius was, and that is the sense given in this passage. But you must change this to suit your doctrine. Truth is, this passage contradicts Total Depravity.

And when it says the Lord opened her heart, this is speaking of understanding the scriptures, just as when the Lord spoke to his disciples after the resurrection.

Luke 24: 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

:thumbs: Good answer. And how does he open our hearts to understand these things? God uses human means. People, like Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit using Spirit inspired scripture sitting down and explaining and persuading.....isn't that God at work in our world?

 

[Grasshopper]

But that is not the sense of the passage whatsoever. It is God's word itself that says she worshipped God.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Lydia was a true worshipper of God just as Cornelius was, and that is the sense given in this passage. But you must change this to suit your doctrine. Truth is, this passage contradicts Total Depravity.

Then why was it necessary for God to "open her heart"? Was it because she was incapable in her own strength?

And when it says the Lord opened her heart, this is speaking of understanding the scriptures, just as when the Lord spoke to his disciples after the resurrection.

So God enabled her to understand the scripture? Was she not capable to do so without God's help? Does God "open the heart" of all men?

 

[MB]

A simple explanation. God is patient because He's waiting for our surrender. Not our choosing Him, but the giving up, of our rebellion.
MB

 

[Grasshopper]

A simple explanation. God is patient because He's waiting for our surrender. Not our choosing Him, but the giving up, of our rebellion.
MB

Thus is the difference in the two camps. Your side believes man is capable of giving up our rebellion, my side says it is impossible outside a transforming work of God.

 

[MB]

Then why was it necessary for God to "open her heart"? Was it because she was incapable in her own strength?

He opened her heart so she could receive the truth of the gospel. At the time to be saved the only source they had was from the preacher to hear the gospel. If opening her heart were regeneration why didn't he just say she was regenerated so she could understand?.

So God enabled her to understand the scripture? Was she not capable to do so without God's help? Does God "open the heart" of all men?

What does scripture say? no one come's to Christ unless the Father draws them. What is preaching for if not to convince the hearer of the gospel?
What is preaching for if not to plant the seed? What is preaching for if not to convict the hearer of there sins ? Conviction is what beats us because we all know what we have done in our lives. It's what takes us to our knees in surrender. Surrender is not doing anything anylonger there for it is not a work. You surrendered didn't you?. You confess your sins didn't you? You confessed Christ before men didn't you. Tell us why? Was it because you were saved first?. If so was this Salvation plus works? If we didn't have to go through all these things why is it even mentioned?
We must all of us shed the old man before we can put on the new man.
MB

 

[Skandelon]

Thus is the difference in the two camps. Your side believes man is capable of giving up our rebellion, my side says it is impossible outside a transforming work of God.

With that in mind, now tell us what is God waiting on? Why does God continually throughout scripture express his patience and long-suffering toward us if indeed everything is "impossible outside the transforming work of God?"

 

[Skandelon]

Then why was it necessary for God to "open her heart"? Was it because she was incapable in her own strength?

How can they believe unless someone preaches? She is incapable of believing in someone she hasn't heard of. God uses human means to bring about his desires. He kept the Jews in darkness by preaching in parables. In the same manner he opens peoples eyes by sending them the clear message in their own language. Paul is God's means of opening her heart, just like the blinding the light was the means God used to change the heart of Paul. Both means that prove to be powerless and insufficient if the "effectual call" is being used.

 

[MB]

Thus is the difference in the two camps. Your side believes man is capable of giving up our rebellion, my side says it is impossible outside a transforming work of God.

[/quote]
My side didn't say that, scripture says that.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Disability isn't justified anywhere in scripture. Only in the Calvinist imagination.
MB

 

[pinoybaptist]

Disability isn't justified anywhere in scripture. Only in the Calvinist imagination.
MB

Then how do you explain Jeremiah 13:23 -
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good , that are accustomed to do evil .

 

[Skandelon]

Then how do you explain Jeremiah 13:23 -
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good , that are accustomed to do evil .

We are not arguing that we can start being righteous according to the demand of the law, as this passage is clearly addressing.

23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil. 24 "I will scatter you like chaff driven by the desert wind. 25 This is your lot, the portion I have decreed for you," declares the Lord, "because you have forgotten me and trusted in false gods. 26 I will pull up your skirts over your face that your shame may be seen-- 27 your adulteries and lustful neighings, your shameless prostitution! I have seen your detestable acts on the hills and in the fields. Woe to you, O Jerusalem! How long will you be unclean?"

Why does God ask them "how long will you be unclean?" What is he waiting on? Why doesn't he just effectually make them clean instead of pretending like they have something they can do first?

We all agree that we cannot be righteous through the law...through morality. But as Paul explains in Romans 3, there is a new righteousness being revealed from heaven which does not come through the law, but through faith. So, to your question, how does an Ethiopian change his skin...how can those accustom to evil do good? You can't! Jesus can and has...so give up trying and believe upon him to be righteousness for you! That is the good news...what once was impossible for you is now possible.

 

[Robert Snow]

Grasshopper is not the only one. The rest of us are just tired of arguing with those who don't see the truth. It's not worth my time, to be quite honest. To see one person post the same thing over and over and over and over and over again reminds me of my kids when they were like 2 years old. But they've matured. I hope the OP does too.

If it's not worth your time, quit responding!

We are attempting to show those who have not fallen for the deception of Calvinism the errors in hopes of keeping them from following this false doctrine.

 

[Robert Snow]

Because at this point in time she was regenerate had already been irresistibly drawn to her God, and ready for the good news of her finished salvation.

Hogwash! So, she was saved before she was saved. This makes about as much sense as anything else Calvinists believe concerning salvation.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Hogwash! So, she was saved before she was saved. This makes about as much sense as anything else Calvinists believe concerning salvation.

What is hogwash is denial of many here, hopefully not including you, that eternal salvation is finished, eternal redemption is finished, and everything Jesus Christ needed to accomplish is finished, no thanks to Arminians, Pelagians, semi-Pelagians and others who insist that no it is not finished.
Everything is done.
It is the Holy Spirit's dispensation/time right now, and His task is to regenerate, quicken, bring back to life, all for whom Christ died, in His own time.
All that I've said is scripture.
In as far as salvation, depending on her age at that time, she was or was not saved, but if she was born after the cross, then her salvation is doubly attained by Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and as the Lamb of God at calvary's mount.
What she, and others who are God's own are not, is born regenerate.
Regeneration is NOT salvation, neither is it redemption.
So, before you resort to insults, please think twice about what is said, and what you are going to say.
Thank you.

 

[MB]

Then how do you explain Jeremiah 13:23 -
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good , that are accustomed to do evil .

Two different covenants two different theologies. The first led us to the second. The second we are saved by grace not the Law. We have been proclaimed to be with out difference. Spots never mattered anyway except in the sacrifice. It is true we can't change our spots but the Holy Spirit and the gospel can. You don't deny that do you?
MB

 

[pinoybaptist]

Two different covenants two different theologies. The first led us to the second. The second we are saved by grace not the Law. We have been proclaimed to be with out difference. Spots never mattered anyway except in the sacrifice. It is true we can't change our spots but the Holy Spirit and the gospel can. You don't deny that do you?
MB

So, if I follow you correctly, in the first covenant, there was no grace, and in the second, there is no law ? So, in the first covenant, eternal salvation is by law, obedience, adherence to, and compliance with it, and in the second covenant, it doesn't matter if the law is disregarded since eternal salvation is by grace ?
Help me understand what you are saying, I am not trying to be thick here.
I know that Scripture says the law was designed to bring us to Christ, but the Jeremiah scripture shows a principle that God is speaking of and that is the inability to do good (according to His terms of good) because like leopards born with spots, and an Ethiopian born black (with neither having the capacity to change their nature) so is the man unable to change his natural predisposition to evil (according, again, to God's definition of what evil is).

And as far as the Holy Spirit, there is nothing in Scripture that says man's old nature is removed from him, but rather, that a new nature is added to him, so that, if the spotted leopard is the natural man, a new man is added to him, this one is spiritual and God-centered. Again, expanding this analogy a little more, the Ethiopian regenerated man may still have black skin, but the new man inside him does not.

And the gospel ?

I have said it before and say it again, the Holy Spirit needs no means or vehicle to quicken His own people. He does it by Himself. The gospel is simply good news intended for the regenerate's ears, not for every man's ears, and while preaching it causes it to fall on everyone's ears, only those with ears to hear can really hear.

 

[Robert Snow]

What is hogwash is denial of many here, hopefully not including you, that eternal salvation is finished, eternal redemption is finished, and everything Jesus Christ needed to accomplish is finished, no thanks to Arminians, Pelagians, semi-Pelagians and others who insist that no it is not finished.
Everything is done.
It is the Holy Spirit's dispensation/time right now, and His task is to regenerate, quicken, bring back to life, all for whom Christ died, in His own time.
All that I've said is scripture.
In as far as salvation, depending on her age at that time, she was or was not saved, but if she was born after the cross, then her salvation is doubly attained by Christ as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and as the Lamb of God at calvary's mount.
What she, and others who are God's own are not, is born regenerate.
Regeneration is NOT salvation, neither is it redemption.
So, before you resort to insults, please think twice about what is said, and what you are going to say.
Thank you.

I've been a Christian for over 40 years and this is the strangest thing I have ever heard.

I'll take the old fundamental baptist belief myself. The Gospel is open to anyone who will believe the Gospel and come to the Lord Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness!

This very evening, before coming to work, I talked to the pastor who led me to the Lord back in 1969 and he agreed that Calvinism is pure false doctrine. He had more to say, but I won't repeat it here!

 

[Skandelon]

Again, I would like to thank all the Calvinists for teaching me patience as I await an answer to this question. Only if I had an effectual way to make you answer, then I wouldn't have to be patient, or would I?

Here is the question in case you all forgot it. If indeed men have nothing to do with being regenerated, then what is God waiting on? Why does he say in many different ways that he is patient with us? Please explain.

(Pinoy, no offense, but I really don't want to discuss this point with a hyper-calvinist)

 

[Grasshopper]

Again, I would like to thank all the Calvinists for teaching me patience as I await an answer to this question. Only if I had an effectual way to make you answer, then I wouldn't have to be patient, or would I?

Here is the question in case you all forgot it. If indeed men have nothing to do with being regenerated, then what is God waiting on? Why does he say in many different ways that he is patient with us? Please explain.

(Pinoy, no offense, but I really don't want to discuss this point with a hyper-calvinist)

Perhaps it would be best to point to the verses that state God is waiting on man and is patient with man. Then perhaps some use could come of this thread.

Secondly if God knows the future and He knows those whom will not be saved, why is He patient with them? Or is He? Is the patience only with those He knows will come to Him?

 

[Skandelon]

Perhaps it would be best to point to the verses that state God is waiting on man and is patient with man. Then perhaps some use could come of this thread.

Read the OP please.

Secondly if God knows the future and He knows those whom will not be saved, why is He patient with them? Or is He? Is the patience only with those He knows will come to Him?

Knowing something before hand doesn't negate the need for patience or long suffering because their is still the need to wait for the agent to act.

 

[MB]

So, if I follow you correctly, in the first covenant, there was no grace, and in the second, there is no law ? So, in the first covenant, eternal salvation is by law, obedience, adherence to, and compliance with it, and in the second covenant, it doesn't matter if the law is disregarded since eternal salvation is by grace ?

I never said any of this. Why do you assume you can read my mind?
Please show eternal Salvation from the OT and that it was by grace?

Help me understand what you are saying, I am not trying to be thick here.
I know that Scripture says the law was designed to bring us to Christ, but the Jeremiah scripture shows a principle that God is speaking of and that is the inability to do good (according to His terms of good) because like leopards born with spots, and an Ethiopian born black (with neither having the capacity to change their nature) so is the man unable to change his natural predisposition to evil (according, again, to God's definition of what evil is).

Like I said different covenants. God's response to believers was different in OT times. We have a new contract one that includeds the Gentiles and a different Law that superceeds the previous. We are to Love our neighbors as our selves and Love God with all we have this fulfills the old Law.
There is no man with out sin the only difference between men is Salvation. Salvation does not save the flesh and sin still dwells with in it. Once we are raptured or ressurrected we will have a new body.

And as far as the Holy Spirit, there is nothing in Scripture that says man's old nature is removed from him, but rather, that a new nature is added to him, so that, if the spotted leopard is the natural man, a new man is added to him, this one is spiritual and God-centered. Again, expanding this analogy a little more, the Ethiopian regenerated man may still have black skin, but the new man inside him does not.

I wonder how you know what color the Etheopian's new man is. How do you know if he even has a color? I've never seen a spirit.

And the gospel ?

I have said it before and say it again, the Holy Spirit needs no means or vehicle to quicken His own people. He does it by Himself. The gospel is simply good news intended for the regenerate's ears, not for every man's ears, and while preaching it causes it to fall on everyone's ears, only those with ears to hear can really hear.

LOL Not one word of the underlined is true nor can it be proved from scripture. Like you did at the beginning of this post, you do to doctrine as well. You assume way to much of it. The gospel was written for the lost.
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
MB