Pre-trib questions

[Shortandy]

I must first confess that eschatology is not something I have spent any real time studying. I have not particular view that I hold to. However, recently a group of Christian men that I have been meeting with have started asking things and teaching things on this issue.

My question of for those who hold to a pre-trib view of the rapture. How does this view....that we will be called up before the suffering fit with the rest of scripture. At face-value it seems to contradict what we know....that "all those who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus shall suffer." Didn't Jesus promise His disciples suffering and hardship for His name? Didn't Paul in Phil. 1:29 say that it has been granted unto us not only to believe but to suffer?

I am wondering how this pre-tribe escape fits in to our whole view of the Bible.

Looking forward to your responses.

 

[Revmitchell]

I must first confess that eschatology is not something I have spent any real time studying. I have not particular view that I hold to. However, recently a group of Christian men that I have been meeting with have started asking things and teaching things on this issue.

My question of for those who hold to a pre-trib view of the rapture. How does this view....that we will be called up before the suffering fit with the rest of scripture. At face-value it seems to contradict what we know....that "all those who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus shall suffer." Didn't Jesus promise His disciples suffering and hardship for His name? Didn't Paul in Phil. 1:29 say that it has been granted unto us not only to believe but to suffer?

I am wondering how this pre-tribe escape fits in to our whole view of the Bible.

Looking forward to your responses.

People have and continue to suffer for Christ. That suffering does not speak to the tribulation period and there is no reason to think it should. But the real question should deal with the true nature of the tribulation period. Is it simply a period of "suffering" or is it the wrath of God?

Those of us who hold to the pre-trib view understand from scripture that the tribulation is more than just a period of suffering as Christians all over the world suffer now. But it is God pouring out wrath on the unbelieving world but not yet the final judgment.

1 thess 5:9

 

[OldRegular]

I am wondering how this pre-tribe escape fits in to our whole view of the Bible.

Looking forward to your responses.

The truth is that the pre-trib escape is the mythological invention of Darby/Scofield dispensationalism and the false doctrine that GOD has two distinct peoples; the Jews, an earthly people, and the Church, a heavenly people.

John F. Walvoord, the preeminent dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary confesses that the validity of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ depends on the definition of the Church. Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

"If the question be asked: Will the church be raptured before end-time events? it becomes very important to define the church as an entity that is distinct from Israel or saints in general. In prophetic passages concerning the Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described, and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant. If they are part of the church, then the church is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot. Many post tribulationists, in an attempt to establish their own point of view, beg the question at the very beginning by assuming that the church includes saints of all ages. The concept that the church is distinct from Israel is a part of dispensational truth that distinguishes the work of God in the Old Testament under the Mosaic Law, the work of God in the present age as he calls out both Jews and Gentiles to form the church as the body of Christ, and the millennial kingdom in which the saints of all ages participate in various ways but maintain their individual and corporate identity. Hence, the church will be raptured or resurrected, and will reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom, but the saved of Israel as well as the saved of the Gentiles who are not part of the church will also be part of the millennial kingdom. Distinguishing the church from saints of other periods that precede or follow the present age is essential to a correct answer on the pretribulational issue. It is not too much to say that the doctrine of the church, or ecclesiology, determines this aspect of eschatology."

The definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

We see from the definition of the Church as presented in the Baptist Faith and Message and the remarks by Walvoord that the doctrine of a pretribulation rapture of the Church contradicts not only historic Baptist Theology but current Southern Baptist theology as well.

 

[Jerome]

Whole view of the Bible?

You mean like how Noah wimped out and hopped on the ark rather than experiencing the God-promised hardship and suffering? Talk about a cop-out!

Or how about those Israelites? Blood on the doorposts? What were they thinking, that they would be passed over when the suffering came? If only there had been bible study teachers back then to dissuade the Hebrews from Moses' "escape hatch" theology!

 

[David Michael Harris]

Whole view of the Bible?

You mean like how Noah wimped out and hopped on the ark rather than experiencing the God-promised hardship and suffering? Talk about a cop-out!

Or how about those Israelites? Blood on the doorposts? What were they thinking, that they would be passed over when the suffering came? If only there had been bible study teachers back then to dissuade the Hebrews from Moses' "escape hatch" theology!

26 years in and not really caught up on this one. Dispi a bit, does not seem to important to me at the moment.

 

[OldRegular]

Whole view of the Bible?

You mean like how Noah wimped out and hopped on the ark rather than experiencing the God-promised hardship and suffering? Talk about a cop-out!

Or how about those Israelites? Blood on the doorposts? What were they thinking, that they would be passed over when the suffering came? If only there had been bible study teachers back then to dissuade the Hebrews from Moses' "escape hatch" theology!

And your point is???????

Noah was being obedient to GOD. The Israelites were being obedient to GOD; those who were not suffered the same as the Egyptians.

If you can show a passage of Scripturege that tells Christians to rapture themselves out then do so otherwise your remarks are pointless.

 

[Steven2006]

I also haven't spent a lot of time studying eschatology.

What I would like to see is less of people just saying something is false, but rather spell out how they believe things will occur and show some verses that led them to those conclusions. That is what I would find most helpful.

 

[OldRegular]

I also haven't spent a lot of time studying eschatology.

What I would like to see is less of people just saying something is false, but rather spell out how they believe things will occur and show some verses that led them to those conclusions. That is what I would find most helpful.

Nothing trumps the following Scripture when it comes to eschatology:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

We see in this passage a general resurrection and a general judgment. I realize that many will say the resurrections do not occur at the same hour but the hour is the hour is the hour, ad infinitum.

Some confirming Scripture are:

John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[Steven2006]

Nothing trumps the following Scripture when it comes to eschatology:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

We see in this passage a general resurrection and a general judgment. I realize that many will say the resurrections do not occur at the same hour but the hour is the hour is the hour, ad infinitum.

Some confirming Scripture are:

John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Thank you for posting some scriptures with your answer.

So you believe we will go through the tribulation and then a general resurrection and judgment, then what? Give me your Readers Digest condensed version of what happens. Do you believe then Jesus will set up His kingdom for 1000 years? Or do you believe that is already happening?

 

[Jerome]

Rev. 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The fact is, in reading this passage with an unbiassed judgment, having no purpose whatever to serve, having no theory to defend,—and I confess I have none, for I know but very little about mysteries to come,—I could not help seeing there are two literal resurrections here spoken of, one of the spirits of the just, and the other of the bodies of the wicked; one of the saints who sleep in Jesus, whom God shall bring wilh him, and another of those who live and die impenitent, who perish in their sins." ---Charles Spurgeon, The First Resurrection

 

[AnotherBaptist]

...What I would like to see is less of people just saying something is false, but rather spell out how they believe things will occur and show some verses that led them to those conclusions. That is what I would find most helpful.

It's called the art of refutation. You can prove disbelief in an opposing view way easier than you can prove belief in your own view. It's employed in virtually every field of theology, not just eschatology.

 

[OldRegular]

Thank you for posting some scriptures with your answer.

So you believe we will go through the tribulation and then a general resurrection and judgment, then what? Give me your Readers Digest condensed version of what happens. Do you believe then Jesus will set up His kingdom for 1000 years? Or do you believe that is already happening?

After the General Resurrection and Judgment the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, shall dwell with the Triune GOD throughout eternity in the New Heaven and earth. Satan and the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire. [Revelation 20, 21, & 22.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Old Regular.

Nothing trumps the following Scripture when it comes to eschatology:

.I would ask a few questions about your beliefs (which have as yet, to a one, gone unanswered)


John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

We see in this passage a general resurrection and a general judgment. I realize that many will say the resurrections do not occur at the same hour but the hour is the hour is the hour, ad infinitum.

Your argument is unconvincing: this is hardly a magic bullet.

If there is only one resurrection of the dead, and it is general, and, keeping in mind you do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign...

Explain if you will the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs (and they must come from the tribulation of revelation, for they did not receive the mark of the beast).

How is it they lived again and reigned with Christ a thousand years?

And that the "rest of the dead" are not resurrected until after the thousand years?

And we would have to deny that there is no condemnation for those in Christ, that righteousness is not of works, and that Christ's one sacrifice did not sanctify (once for all) and perfect forever the ones who know Him...if we find believers being judged eternally by their works.

Please, enlighten me about this.

Also, I'll ask again: If we are in the 1000 year spiritual reign of Christ now, should we call it the 2000 year reign?

Sounds sarcastic, I know, but I would like to know why you believe as you do.



Some confirming Scripture are:

John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

There seems to be a contradiction in using these verses as applicable to a general resurrection.

In the first verse given, only those who are His are mentioned.

In the second verse, those who are His (again) have life.

In the third, those at this judgement are dead...not to mention they are formerly of death and hell. Those who are said to be adversaries (Rev.20:9) are devoured by fire, at which point it would seem reasonable their fate would be death and hell. From which point they go to eternal judgement at the great white throne.

 

[Darrell C]

I must first confess that eschatology is not something I have spent any real time studying. I have not particular view that I hold to. However, recently a group of Christian men that I have been meeting with have started asking things and teaching things on this issue.

My question of for those who hold to a pre-trib view of the rapture. How does this view....that we will be called up before the suffering fit with the rest of scripture. At face-value it seems to contradict what we know....that "all those who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus shall suffer." Didn't Jesus promise His disciples suffering and hardship for His name? Didn't Paul in Phil. 1:29 say that it has been granted unto us not only to believe but to suffer?

I am wondering how this pre-tribe escape fits in to our whole view of the Bible.

Looking forward to your responses.

Hi Shortandy,

This is one of the teachings you will eventually have to decide for yourself, but, you ask a good question: Why do people believe one way or another about this.

I will briefly give my reason.

Though some deny a literal 7 year tribulation, as well as a 1000 year kingdom, I see these as literal as described in the book of Revelation.

I see the 7 years as Daniel's seventieth week, and the period as the Day of the Lord (which is a day of judgement.

From chapter four to 19, no mention of the Church is made (and I am not distinguishing two different bodies of believers, but those who belong to God from a different age [i.e., Old testament saints as opposed to New]).

If there is a different ministry of God to the New, under the New Covenant, why would it be hard to see a different ministry to those in this day of judgement?

Certain passages are held by pre-trib believers to point to the body of believers of this age being caught away. This term in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 was translated in a latin translation (which some hold to be a corrupt translation [which has nothing to do with the translation of this word]) with the word rapturos. This is where the common term for this belief originates. This is the first thing those who don't hold to this teaching point out: it's not in the bible.

Notice in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, in v. 13, Paul writes, I would not have you to be ignorant. Contrast that with, "the Day of the Lord Comes as a thief in the night." One, he says, we should know about, the other, is unknown.

(I won't get in-depth at this time, my time is running short)

The Day of the Lord is a time of Judgement for those who know not God and obey not the gospel (2 Thess. 2:5-10).

Those who know God and obey the gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, specifically, that He died for our sin) are said in several places to be delivered from the wrath to come.

This is one section I see as pertaining to the rapture.

Also, 2 Thessalonians Chapter two. Before the Day of the Lord occurs, there will be an apostasy. We are not to be troubled by this approaching event (v.2). This time cannot occur until the Restrainer is taken out of the way (in the KJV, letteth means restrains).

There is much speculation as to who He is. It is my belief that it is the Body of Christ, specifically, the restraining work of the Holy Spirit through His physical body on earth: us!

It cannot be the Holy Spirit Himself, for God is omniscient.

Again, as in 1 Thess. 4:18, in 2 Thess. 2:17, we are to be comforted. This would not seem quite right if we were to comfort ourselves that we will go through this time.

C.f. 1 Thess. 5 for a look at the Day of the Lord, which, we are not appointed to wrath, but salvation.

Next, I see in 1 Corinthians 15, probably the most detailed passage on resurrection in the bible, and Paul presents a "mystery" (a previously unrevealed truth): you have to ask yourself, what is Paul saying that before this passage was unrevealed?

We can look at these in greater detail later, if you like.

One last thing: in Revelation 3:7-10, a door is opened, those who overcome (true believers) are kept from the hour of trial which is to befall the earth (the Day of the Lord/tribulation). Then, John sees a door opened in heaven: 4:1.

Coincidence? Maybe. But I don't think so.

In 3:5-those who overcome are told by Jesus, "I will not blot blot out his name out of the book of life." I'm not a greek student, but have read that this could be translated as "I will never blot out His name." Don't quote me on that, though.

See 1 John 5 for more from John on "overcoming".

Anyway, thats a birds eye view of why I believe there will be a rapture. I am not dogmatic about this doctrine, and do not despise and ridicule those who don't hold to this doctrine (but I have noticed the other side has a tendency to get ugly on this one).

Again, you will come to a conclusion in your own heart, by way of the Spirit's teaching.

So...Study, study, study...

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Thank you for posting some scriptures with your answer.

So you believe we will go through the tribulation and then a general resurrection and judgment, then what? Give me your Readers Digest condensed version of what happens. Do you believe then Jesus will set up His kingdom for 1000 years? Or do you believe that is already happening?

I believe that we are in the so-called millennium at the present time. When studying the Book of Revelation a person must be aware that it is written for the most part in symbolic language.

The First resurrection and only resurrection to date, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, occurred some 2000 years ago. Those who have part in the First Resurrection are those who are saved by the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.

When jesus Christ returns in the Glory of the Godhead then the general resurrection of all the dead will occur followed by the Great White Throne Judgment. Afterwards satan and all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire. Those who are the saved, the Bride of Jesus Christ, whll dwell in the New Heaven and New earth throughout eternity with the Triune GOD.


Scripture teaches that mortal man can not live in the presence of the Glory of GOD. No one who espouses an earthly reign has yet explained how mortal man can live in the presence of Jesus Christ whom Scripture states shall return in the full Glory of GOD.

 

[OldRegular]

Darrell C.

Answer a question for me please. Is the Millennial Kingdom the Kingdom of GOD since GOD, Jesus christ, will be reigning?

 

[Joy2U]

i am trying to delete my post. but it's not working, sorry.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

The Kingdom

Darrell C.

Answer a question for me please. Is the Millennial Kingdom the Kingdom of GOD since GOD, Jesus christ, will be reigning?

Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, yes. But the Millennial Kingdom is his to rule from David's throne. Upon its completion Jesus will have the angels remove all that offends from the kingdom (those born during the Millennium that choose not to follow and be obedient to God, after satan is released from his prison), and Jesus will present the Kingdom to and turn it over to The Father.

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Many view this as a discription of the great tribulaiton period, and that there is no Rapture prior to the seven years. But "The time of Jacob's Trouble", or "Daniel's 70th week" can not be equated to "The Kingdom". There will be no Kingdom of God or Christ on the earth during the Great Tribuation. The thousand year reign of Christ will occur after the Gorious Appearing of The Lord, which takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation Period.

 

[Justin76]

I also haven't spent a lot of time studying eschatology.

What I would like to see is less of people just saying something is false, but rather spell out how they believe things will occur and show some verses that led them to those conclusions. That is what I would find most helpful.

I second this, too. This is something I've felt was a little less important since at the basic level I know I'm supposed to live like Christ might come right now. Beyond that, it gets a bit confusing. But we're supposed to study the entire Bible, so I'm interested, too. Just seems to be a lot of confusion.

 

[olegig]

Scripture teaches that mortal man can not live in the presence of the Glory of GOD.
Scriptural proof please.

No one who espouses an earthly reign has yet explained how mortal man can live in the presence of Jesus Christ whom Scripture states shall return in the full Glory of GOD.

Do you feel a man that lives for 1,000 yrs and never dies is mortal?