Pre-trib questions

[Darrell C]

So, after your confusing but loyal dispensational interpretation, where is Jesus Christ during this period of time?

Hi Old Regular,

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you.

Personally (as I have said), I think that both the Lord and the saints will traverse between Heaven and Earth during the M.K.

I can't say with certainty that Christ will rule from an earthly throne (though most believe that, and I lean that way).

When that period ends, I think it quite probable that the New Heaven and Earth will be Heaven itself.

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Hi Old Regular,

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you.

Personally (as I have said), I think that both the Lord and the saints will traverse between Heaven and Earth during the M.K.

I can't say with certainty that Christ will rule from an earthly throne (though most believe that, and I lean that way).

When that period ends, I think it quite probable that the New Heaven and Earth will be Heaven itself.

God bless.

So answer the question I asked earlier. How does mortal man live in the presence of GOD in HIS full GLORY?

 

[Darrell C]

So answer the question I asked earlier. How does mortal man live in the presence of GOD in HIS full GLORY?

Hi Old Regular,

Thought I did, I'll try again.

Mortal man cannot live in the presence of God in His full glory.

This is why we are changed according to 1Cor. 15.

If you look back I think this was already discussed.

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Hi Old Regular,

Thought I did, I'll try again.

Mortal man cannot live in the presence of God in His full glory.

This is why we are changed according to 1Cor. 15.

If you look back I think this was already discussed.

God bless.

Read again your post #36 below:

[Your Post #36]

Hi Old Regular,

You must have missed that I said the true Holy of Holies.

This is Heaven, where the true presence of God resides.

Those in the millennial kingdom will have a temple, and will keep the feasts, and will offer sacrifice during this time (c.f. Zech. 14).

There will be no salvation value to this ceremony, as there is no salvation value to communion (it is done in memorium).

There will be those who are born at this time who will not be changed as Paul describes in 1 Cor. 15.

There will be those who reject Christ and refuse to worship as commanded by God.

Does that help?

God bless.

You say those born during the millennium will not be changed as Paul describes in 1 Cor. 15. So tell me how these mortals can live in the presence of the Full GLORY of GOD?

 

[olegig]

You say those born during the millennium will not be changed as Paul describes in 1 Cor. 15. So tell me how these mortals can live in the presence of the Full GLORY of GOD?

OldRegular I would suggest you always check the material you are reading against scripture.
Many times men contrive "talking points" attempting to disprove a position; but when examined closely with scripture one finds these "talking points" are not scriptural.

Your question has been answered with scripture.
1. The "proof text" you provided from Rev was shown to not be speaking of Christ coming in the "Glory of God" but He is coming in the "wrath of God" and will rule with an iron rod. (Rev 12:5; 19:15)
I do concede your private theology confounds the wrath of God as the Glory of God when it is placed upon the reprobate; but again, that is your private view and cannot be helped.
This correlation was shown in post #25 and the effects there of.

2. Darrell has shown the true Holy of Holies to be the Throne of God in Heaven where it has always been. (Heb 9:24)
The Holy of Holies in Heaven is where the "Glory of God" now resides and will reside during the Millennial Reign.
Apparently your chosen commentators neglected to inform you of this.

3. Darrell has also shown you those who have a Glorified Body (1Cor 15:50ff) will be able to be in the Glory of God in Heaven and also on earth to help the King rule and reign as ambassadors. (2Cor 5:20)

And to address those born on earth during the Millennial Reign one easily can see through scripture the Glory of God is not on the earth where they will reside.

One can easily see these scriptural responses do not suit you because they do not fit your private theology; but it would be much better to disprove them with scripture than to just keep repeating your talking points.

Now a question for you:
Accordingly as you have said, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, so how can this present world be the Kingdom since it is very plain we are all "flesh and blood"??????????

I do not expect we will see a proper response to the above; but I do hope the concept sticks in your head and pricks your heart.

 

[Darrell C]

Read again your post #36 below:



You say those born during the millennium will not be changed as Paul describes in 1 Cor. 15. So tell me how these mortals can live in the presence of the Full GLORY of GOD?

Hi Old regular,

I see,

In the Millenial Kingdom, Christ can interact with mortal man, I see no problem with this.

I believe the earth will revert to a "somewhat" pre-fall condition as suggested by certain scripture (i.e., Isaiah 11).

But though man will still have a proclivity for unbelief, he will have a nearer presence of the Lord (physical) than at this current time.

Jesus interacted with Saul on the road to Damascus, why would it be impossible in the M.K.?

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Hi Old regular,

I see,

In the Millenial Kingdom, Christ can interact with mortal man, I see no problem with this.

Then you have a problem with Scripture since Scripture teaches that mortal man cannot see the Glory of GOD and live.

 

[thomas15]

I'm not a big poster on this forum and in general I don't like to complain. The OP Shortandy asks a simple question: "I am wondering how this pre-tribe (sp) escape fits in to our whole view of the Bible."

If you go back to the OP, one would assume that the writer is inviting pre-tib folks to answer his questions, not have OldRegular post adnauseam rebuttals of a theology he doesn't agree with.

Please stop it.

Thank you
Tom

 

[OldRegular]

I'm not a big poster on this forum and in general I don't like to complain. The OP Shortandy asks a simple question: "I am wondering how this pre-tribe (sp) escape fits in to our whole view of the Bible."

If you go back to the OP, one would assume that the writer is inviting pre-tib folks to answer his questions, not have OldRegular post adnauseam rebuttals of a theology he doesn't agree with.

Please stop it.

Thank you
Tom

The OP asked the question:

I am wondering how this pre-tribe escape fits in to our whole view of the Bible.

Looking forward to your responses.

The "our", like it or not, inevitable includes all Baptists on this Forum. If you don't like my views you are not required to read them. Furthermore, until you become an administrator or moderator your "stop it" is useless verbiage!

 

[olegig]

I'm not a big poster on this forum and in general I don't like to complain. The OP Shortandy asks a simple question: "I am wondering how this pre-tribe (sp) escape fits in to our whole view of the Bible."

Your right, the OP question has perhaps not been given its just due.

My short answer is that the book of Revelations and other places in the OT describe the 7 yr period of Tribulation as a terrible event when the "wrath of God" will be rained down on earth to destroy sin and those who are steeped in sin.

This "wrath of God" is not to be confused with wrath as we know it as in:
Ephesians 4:31 (King James Version)
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

The "wrath of God" is better described as in:
Romans 1:18 (King James Version)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The time of the "wrath of God" is when God will show judgement upon all sin and unrighteousness, a time as never has been seen before.

Those who believe in a pre-trib rapture of the Church do so based on passages which promise those in Christ will not suffer the "wrath of God".

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (King James Version)
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (King James Version)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[thomas15]

The OP asked the question:


The "our", like it or not, inevitable includes all Baptists on this Forum. If you don't like my views you are not required to read them. Furthermore, until you become an administrator or moderator your "stop it" is useless verbiage!

Your views are not what concern me. This is supposed to be a Christian forum, one would expect Christian behavor.

The fact is, you Sir have strayed off topic. And I my friend, have just as much right to redirect the discussion back to where it belongs as you have to distract and dazzle everyone with your advanced theological knowledge of which by the way, we are all impressed by.

 

[OldRegular]

Your views are not what concern me. This is supposed to be a Christian forum, one would expect Christian behavor.

The fact is, you Sir have strayed off topic. And I my friend, have just as much right to redirect the discussion back to where it belongs as you have to distract and dazzle everyone with your advanced theological knowledge of which by the way, we are all impressed by.

I thought you were whining because I was on topic, but did not agree with pre trib doctrine.

 

[Darrell C]

Then you have a problem with Scripture since Scripture teaches that mortal man cannot see the Glory of GOD and live.

Hardly, we are given several accounts where men saw God and lived.

By full glory, I see God in Heaven...where mortal man cannot go (nor inherit).

Your argument is weak in saying there will be no M.K. because mortal man cannot be in God's presence (Christ reigning from an earthly throne).

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Hardly, we are given several accounts where men saw God and lived.

By full glory, I see God in Heaven...where mortal man cannot go (nor inherit).

Your argument is weak in saying there will be no M.K. because mortal man cannot be in God's presence (Christ reigning from an earthly throne).

God bless.

Then provide the Scripture where mortal man saw God in the Full Glory of the GODHEAD and lived!

 

[Darrell C]

Then provide the Scripture where mortal man saw God in the Full Glory of the GODHEAD and lived!

This gets tiresome.

Never said they saw God in the full glory of the Godhead.

I personally believe that every instance of God dealing directly with man is He in the Person of the Son.

Do you have scripture that indicates the full glory of the Godhead in the M.K.?

 

[Jerome]

J. Hudson Taylor, founder of the China Inland Mission:

About this time a friend drew my attention to the question of the personal and pre-millennial coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and gave me a list of passages bearing upon it, without note or comment, advising me to ponder the subject. For a while I gave much time to studying the Scriptures about it, with the result that I was led to see that this same Jesus who left our earth in His resurrection body was so to come again, that His feet were to stand on the Mount of Olives, and that He was to take possession of the temporal throne of His father David which was promised before His birth.

A Retrospect

Amen, and special thanks to pinoybaptist for commending Taylor to me:thumbs:

 

[Allan]

Then provide the Scripture where mortal man saw God in the Full Glory of the GODHEAD and lived!

Jesus is God, correct?
And in Him is the fullness of the Godhead bodily, correct?

What about at the mount of Transfiguration when 3 disciples saw Him in the fulness of His glory? Scripture does state they saw him 'glorified':

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Or after the resurrection, at any given time, when he was known for who he was? Or if you want something more specifical, when He revealed Himself to the 11?

Or if neither of those meet your criteria, there is always Stephen who saw Jesus before he died - and no, he did not die right away. Look at what scripture states:

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Take note that scripture states this living person saw the 'glory of God' and recognized Jesus standing at the throne of God.

THEN .. they ran at him, took him and took him out of the city. Took time to take off their outer garments (much like a man taking off his shirt) and layed them down at Sauls feet - Then - stoned Stephen, and even that took some time.

So not only did this man see the glory of God in heaven while still alive, but he did not die from it and continued to be alive till he was stoned to death later on. (maybe 15 minutes to hour later - depending on how far the edge of the city was and taking off their clothes and finding stones)

 

[olegig]

Then provide the Scripture where mortal man saw God in the Full Glory of the GODHEAD and lived!

This is getting comically revealing coming from a poster who rejects all the scriptures that describe the physical aspect of the future Millennial Kingdom.

The main theme of scriptures is the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to reclaim His creation and become King and Lord over it.
There are many, many passages that speak of the coming physical event saying things like the wolf and lamb laying together, children playing around snakes dens, etc.
These are as plain as the nose on one's face and just as physical.

OldRegular, you reject these passages which leads one to hardly take you seriously when you ask for scriptural proof of anything.
Why give you scripture? If it does not fit your preconceived notions, you won't believe them either.

And I say again, the problem most folks have with the Bible is not one of understanding, but belief.

OldRegular, it seems you believe your commentators more than you believe the Word of God.

 

[OldRegular]

This gets tiresome.

Never said they saw God in the full glory of the Godhead.

I personally believe that every instance of God dealing directly with man is He in the Person of the Son.

Do you have scripture that indicates the full glory of the Godhead in the M.K.?

Just where is the millennial kingdom discussed in Scripture?.

 

[OldRegular]

Anyone:

Explain away the following:

Exodus 33:18-23
18. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22. And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

1 Timothy 6: 13-16
13. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.