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Piper teaches that some Calvinists might not be Born Again.

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Actually, to say it is "free will" begs the question or doesn't answer the question at all - the question as to why some come and some don't. And I realize your need to escape the question, because the answer is not one you would like to admit.

You were making a statement about what WE believe, not what you believe, thus it is not begging the question for me to state our position.

The question as to why some come and some don't is a perfect example of the fallacy called "begging the question." Why? Because it presumes a deterministic answer is needed, and denies the very freedom our position claims. Free agency is mysterious and beyond full comprehension and whether you admit that or not you have the same mystery. That can be demonstrated when we shift the discussion to talk about God's choices. Why did He choose you and not someone else? Mystery? Could he have chosen someone else? If not, why not? If so, why didn't He? All mystery. We cannot possibly know all the factors that go into the decision of a free moral agent and to presume that all decisions must be caused by some determinative factor is just a game of question begging.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
No, I just am wondering why your thoughts were pure enough to humble yourself to be saved, while another kid in the same service didn't have pure enough thoughts to humble himself to be saved?

Question Begging. :)

I'm just wondering why your thoughts were pure enough to humble yourself to become a Calvinist, while Winman didn't have pure enough thoughts to humble himself?
 

Andy T.

Active Member
The question as to why some come and some don't is a perfect example of the fallacy called "begging the question." Why? Because it presumes a deterministic answer is needed, and denies the very freedom our position claims.
Again, I don't think I am begging the question, because I'm not presuming that a deterministic answer is needed. I'm assuming your position on lib. free will is correct. And if it is correct, then the answer to the question has to be rooted in the person making the decision. If we all agree that choosing heaven over hell is a good, smart, righteous decision, then it simply follows that those who chose rightly can claim some merit on their own compared to the those who do not choose rightly. See - no determinism - the answer lies within the person making a lib. free will decision, and good for them that they chose wisely.

Free agency is mysterious and beyond full comprehension and whether you admit that or not you have the same mystery. That can be demonstrated when we shift the discussion to talk about God's choices. Why did He choose you and not someone else? Mystery? Could he have chosen someone else? If not, why not? If so, why didn't He? All mystery. We cannot possibly know all the factors that go into the decision of a free moral agent and to presume that all decisions must be caused by some determinative factor is just a game of question begging.
First, I don't think you are being consistent here - your view of LFW is not mysterious at all - you believe we always have the power and will to choose otherwise in every situation. If someone chooses wisely, then he was being wise. If someone chooses evil, then he was being evil.

Second, from my perspective, I don't think we can compare our free will with God's free will. To a certain extent, God's free will (and His whole nature) transcends ours to where comparison is futile. Therefore, there is a mystery as to why God makes certain decisions, because He is God and we are not. If LFW is true, there is no mystery - you either choose wisely (to your merit), or you do not (to your demerit).
 

Andy T.

Active Member
I'm just wondering why your thoughts were pure enough to humble yourself to become a Calvinist, while Winman didn't have pure enough thoughts to humble himself?
If we assume for a moment that Calvinism is true and that I am "on the right track" so to speak, then I can only credit God's grace and work in my life. Phil. 2:12-13.

And why does God not work the same in everyone's life? We already addressed that in another post.
 

Winman

Active Member
If we assume for a moment that Calvinism is true and that I am "on the right track" so to speak, then I can only credit God's grace and work in my life. Phil. 2:12-13.

And why does God not work the same in everyone's life? We already addressed that in another post.

What if it turns out you find Calvinism to be false? What do you credit that to?
 

Andy T.

Active Member
What if it turns out you find Calvinism to be false? What do you credit that to?
My own bad judgement and/or sin. The same for any false doctrine I might hold, or for any sinful, unwise, poor choice that I make - all my fault, bro.
 

Winman

Active Member
My own bad judgement and/or sin. The same for any false doctrine I might hold, or for any sinful, unwise, poor choice that I make - all my fault, bro.

Then you finally see that the reason why some people do not humble themselves is their own fault.

Good.
 

Andy T.

Active Member
Then you finally see that the reason why some people do not humble themselves is their own fault.

Good.
Yes, we both agree that those who do not humble themselves it is their own fault. However, we disagree on whom we credit as to why we humbled ourselves to receive Christ. Your belief has the credit going to yourself, while mine has the credit going to God.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
If we assume for a moment that Calvinism is true and that I am "on the right track" so to speak, then I can only credit God's grace and work in my life. Phil. 2:12-13.

And why does God not work the same in everyone's life? We already addressed that in another post.

Yes, and that answer you gave in the other post is the exact answer we can give you to this particular question.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Again, I don't think I am begging the question, because I'm not presuming that a deterministic answer is needed. I'm assuming your position on lib. free will is correct. And if it is correct, then the answer to the question has to be rooted in the person making the decision. If we all agree that choosing heaven over hell is a good, smart, righteous decision, then it simply follows that those who chose rightly can claim some merit on their own compared to the those who do not choose rightly. See - no determinism - the answer lies within the person making a lib. free will decision, and good for them that they chose wisely.

Notice that you said, "that those who chose rightly can claim some merit," but when I asked you about why you were a Calvinist you claim that it is from God and that you can't claim merit. However, in the other thread you admitted that God didn't override men's freewill in the regard of what doctrinal stance they have. Which is it because you keep contradicting yourself. Or at least that is what it appears to me.

You think you are not begging the question by saying that you are not presuming "determinism" but then you have presumed that there MUST be some "merit" that determined that choice. You don't even see the contradiction in that statement.

If their is some MERIT in a person that caused/determined his choice to accept the gospel that is the very defination of determinism and the heart of Calvinistic thought. Faith (effectually brought about by regeneration) is the MERIT by which a person chooses to follow Christ in your system. You think there MUST be some merit because you presume there must be something that determines a choice. We believe the PERSON (not some merit, characteristic, condition or whatever) determines a choice. The actor causes the act. The chooser makes the choice. The determiner makes the determination. The complexity of that free choice is beyond full comprehension because the all the influential factors, personality traits and other components that effect that choice are unknowable to us. So, just as a Calvinist appeals to mystery with regard to why God might choose one person to save over another, so too the non-Calvinists appeals to mystery as to why a free moral agent might choose one path over another.


First, I don't think you are being consistent here - your view of LFW is not mysterious at all - you believe we always have the power and will to choose otherwise in every situation. If someone chooses wisely, then he was being wise. If someone chooses evil, then he was being evil.
Actually, those who hold to LFW don't believe that every choice is undetermined. We just believe that for a choice to be FREE and for someone to be morally accountable for a choice that they must have been able to do otherwise. We do acknowledge and accept the biblical teaching regarding God's special acts of intervention to bring about a certain predetermined aspect of His plan.

We have a clear distinction between the instinctive choices of animals and the free choices of morally accountable people. I think the Calvinistic (compatibilistic) explanations of human freedom blur this distinction.

Second, from my perspective, I don't think we can compare our free will with God's free will. To a certain extent, God's free will (and His whole nature) transcends ours to where comparison is futile. Therefore, there is a mystery as to why God makes certain decisions, because He is God and we are not. If LFW is true, there is no mystery - you either choose wisely (to your merit), or you do not (to your demerit).
Well, even more deterministic or compatiblistic philosophical scholars acknowledge that if one can establish the possibility of LFW anywhere (even in God) that it would open the possibility of its duplication considering the fact that God is omnipotent. So, my goal in this argument is not to equate our will with that of God. It is simply to establish the possibility of LFW within God so as to show that aspect of God can be duplicated within man to some degree...though still mysterious indeed.
 
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Cypress

New Member
Quote:
Second, from my perspective, I don't think we can compare our free will with God's free will. To a certain extent, God's free will (and His whole nature) transcends ours to where comparison is futile. Therefore, there is a mystery as to why God makes certain decisions, because He is God and we are not. If LFW is true, there is no mystery - you either choose wisely (to your merit), or you do not (to your demerit).
Andy, you are assuming if LFW is valid, then man is able to believe in God, and believing in God is wise. Choosing to believe and exercise faith in God then would be to ones benefit, not merit, if wise choosing is valued. Conversely it would be to mans detriment, not demerit, to choose unwisely. Merit has nothing to do with it
 
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Andy T.

Active Member
Notice that you said, "that those who chose rightly can claim some merit,"
Yes, from a non-Cal perspective, not from a Cal perspective.

but when I asked you about why you were a Calvinist you claim that it is from God and that you can't claim merit.
Yes, from my perspective.

However, in the other thread you admitted that God didn't override men's freewill in the regard of what doctrinal stance they have.
Never said that.

You think you are not begging the question by saying that you are not presuming "determinism" but then you have presumed that there MUST be some "merit" that determined that choice. You don't even see the contradiction in that statement.
Well, if by determinism you mean that every effect must have a cause, then I guess I'm guilty. I don't believe our choices are just random occurrences with no explanation.

If their is some MERIT in a person that caused/determined his choice to accept the gospel that is the very defination of determinism and the heart of Calvinistic thought. Faith (effectually brought about by regeneration) is the MERIT by which a person chooses to follow Christ in your system. You think there MUST be some merit because you presume there must be something that determines a choice. We believe the PERSON (not some merit, characteristic, condition or whatever) determines a choice. The actor causes the act. The chooser makes the choice. The determiner makes the determination. The complexity of that free choice is beyond full comprehension because the all the influential factors, personality traits and other components that effect that choice are unknowable to us. So, just as a Calvinist appeals to mystery with regard to why God might choose one person to save over another, so too the non-Calvinists appeals to mystery as to why a free moral agent might choose one path over another.
I'm sorry, but I think this is a big cop-out on your end. If LFW is true, there is no mystery as to who receives the merit for a right choice. The merit goes to the chooser, otherwise he didn't truly have LFW when he made that choice. You can't fall back on "personality traits" or other "influential factors" on a person's decision - talk about determinism! No, if LFW is true, by its essence, a right choice is credited to the chooser.
 

Andy T.

Active Member
Andy, you are assuming if LFW is valid, then man is able to believe in God, and believing in God is wise. Choosing to believe and exercise faith in God then would be to ones benefit, not merit, if wise choosing is valued. Conversely it would be to mans detriment, not demerit, to choose unwisely. Merit has nothing to do with it
Well, if you want to phrase it this way, then we have two classes of people - smart ones and dumb ones. The ones who chose wisely for their benefit are obviously smart; the rest are dumb.

Doesn't really change my argument either way.
 

Cypress

New Member
It seems to change it from my perspective. They may be very smart but not value the things of God in the least. Many of them are undoubtedly smarter than me. Choosing to remain in rebellion to God is a matter of pride. In any case, removing the idea of merit may be helpful to some.
 

Shortandy

New Member
In response to the OP I would say a person could embrace a theological system without being born again the same way the people in Galilee "received" Jesus in John 4. They received Christ for the purpose of seeing miracles not because they were seeking a Savior.

Today people could hold to any theological system for pride instead of truth.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Never said that.

I asked you, "Do you believe that God would rather see men remain Arminians than to override their free will?"

You answered:
Apparently, yes, otherwise all would eventually abandon Arminianism (assuming such is incorrect).

That mean's you believe that God doesn't override a believer's freewill with regard to whether they are Calvinistic or not. Right?

So, which is it?

1. Did God give you something to make you accept the "truth" of Calvinism (thus determining you to be a Calvinist) that he didn't grant me (thus determining me to be an Arminian.

OR

2. Did God give us both, as believers, all we need to know and accept the "truth" of Calvinism? If so, why did you accept it while I didn't? Are you smarter? What merit do you claim that you weren't given?

I don't believe our choices are just random occurrences with no explanation.
Neither do I. No more so than you believe God's choice to save you and not someone else is a "random occurrence without explanation." You simply refer to God's choices as being "secret" or "mysterious" in the same manner that I refer to the complexity of all morally free choices.

I'm sorry, but I think this is a big cop-out on your end. If LFW is true, there is no mystery as to who receives the merit for a right choice. The merit goes to the chooser, otherwise he didn't truly have LFW when he made that choice.
You seem to be confusing to different issues. (preexistent "merit" and the "reward" for doing what is right)

Of course the REWARD goes to the chooser. Thus the whole concept of reward and punishment. "Abraham believed and it was credited to HIM as righteousness." There is a difference in rewarding a person for making the correct choice...i.e. "Your faith has made you well"... and the "merit" that determines one to make this choice rather than that one....i.e. "your great intellect determined your choice to the right thing."

You can't fall back on "personality traits" or other "influential factors" on a person's decision - talk about determinism!
I didn't say personality traits and other factors determined the choice, I said they were INFLUENCES on the agent. The agent determines the choice.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In response to the OP I would say a person could embrace a theological system without being born again the same way the people in Galilee "received" Jesus in John 4. They received Christ for the purpose of seeing miracles not because they were seeking a Savior.

Today people could hold to any theological system for pride instead of truth.

Exactly. It's not the belief but the heart. Anyone can "believe" anything - but are they a child of God?
 

Andy T.

Active Member
I asked you, "Do you believe that God would rather see men remain Arminians than to override their free will?"

You answered:
Apparently, yes, otherwise all would eventually abandon Arminianism (assuming such is incorrect).

That mean's you believe that God doesn't override a believer's freewill with regard to whether they are Calvinistic or not. Right?

If certain doctrine A is the true doctrine on a matter, and I as a Christian believe such doctrine, I can only credit God. If I disbelieve it, I can only blame myself.

Neither do I. No more so than you believe God's choice to save you and not someone else is a "random occurrence without explanation." You simply refer to God's choices as being "secret" or "mysterious" in the same manner that I refer to the complexity of all morally free choices.
This is where I don't think the comparison is valid, since God has said in His Word that there are some things that are secret that He has not revealed. But again, if LFW is true, there is no secret as to the basis of a person's decision. If it is a good decision, the credit (or benefit, if you will) goes to the chooser.

You seem to be confusing to different issues. (preexistent "merit" and the "reward" for doing what is right)

Of course the REWARD goes to the chooser. Thus the whole concept of reward and punishment. "Abraham believed and it was credited to HIM as righteousness." There is a difference in rewarding a person for making the correct choice...i.e. "Your faith has made you well"... and the "merit" that determines one to make this choice rather than that one....i.e. "your great intellect determined your choice to the right thing."
This is the same twist that Cypress tried to make above, but I think it still fails. Who in their right mind would choose hell? Well, you and I as Christians did not choose hell, so we must have a better mind than those who did.

I didn't say personality traits and other factors determined the choice, I said they were INFLUENCES on the agent. The agent determines the choice.
On what basis or why does an agent determine a certain choice? Nevermind, I know your answer already - mystery. Feel like we are playing Who's On First? :)
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
If certain doctrine A is the true doctrine on a matter, and I as a Christian believe such doctrine, I can only credit God. If I disbelieve it, I can only blame myself.
Why are you allowed to say that with regard to the "doctrines of Grace," but you won't allow us to say it with regard to the doctrines of salvation?

Don't you see the double standard?

Let me ask you this. Assuming Calvinism is correct, could John Wesley have been a Calvinist? Could he have believed otherwise? If he could then why didn't he? Did God not grant him something that he granted the Calvinistic theologians?

This is where I don't think the comparison is valid, since God has said in His Word that there are some things that are secret that He has not revealed.
Well, I'd argue that he has revealed the reason he chooses to save some over others.

"Your faith has made you well."
"Because you have believed...."
"Repent and believe and you will be saved."
"Whosoever believes in him shall be saved."
"Abraham believe and it was credited to him as righteousness."
"Many are called by few are chosen."

Have you read this analogy of the banquet feast? Why does the bridegroom choose those who show up at the banquet? Because they are dressed correctly (the righteousness of Christ). The choice is made based upon how the person has clothed himself, not some secret unknown mystery of God.


But again, if LFW is true, there is no secret as to the basis of a person's decision. If it is a good decision, the credit (or benefit, if you will) goes to the chooser.
Again, don't confuse the reward (the consequences of a choice) with the "merit" or "characteristic" that determined the choice.

We both agree that God rewards those who love and follow him, right? That in some sense is "credit." That is NOT what we are discussing. We are talking about the determination of the choice.

This is the same twist that Cypress tried to make above, but I think it still fails. Who in their right mind would choose hell? Well, you and I as Christians did not choose hell, so we must have a better mind than those who did
.
Its not a "twist" it is a clarification so that we are addressing the same subject. Don't you acknowledge the difference between the thing that caused you to have faith and be saved from the reward of that faith and salvation? It's a clear distinction.

And if Calvinism is true, who in there right mind would choose non-Calvinism? So, you must have a better mind than those who did. (again, double standard)

On what basis or why does an agent determine a certain choice? Nevermind, I know your answer already - mystery. Feel like we are playing Who's On First? :)
The reason it feels like that is because the question you are asking is the fallacy of "begging the question." That by its very definition is a cyclical fallacy which leads to confusion and repeated arguments. That is why I'm attempting to explain it to you. Let me let a scholar explain it and maybe you will understand him better:

Feinberg (who is more Calvinistic) wrote:

"On the one hand, indeterminists {non-Calvinist} claim that we do not act without reasons. On the other hand, they deny that any reasons or other causes serve as sufficient conditions for what is chosen. But if nothing is a sufficient condition to incline the will to choose one thing over another, then how do we choose at all? If the causal influences really were at a stand-off, then we would not choose. Moreover, if causal influences are not sufficient to move the will to choose, then what is? Some indeterminists claim that a person just chooses. Fine, but on what basis? If the answer is that he or she just chooses, surely this is no explanation at all. If the indeterminist argues that the choice is made in accord with what appears to be the best reason(s), then, in fact, the act is causally determined (reasons have functioned as causes sufficient to produce the act)" (Feinberg, p. 36).

This appears to be essetially what you are asking and attempting to argue, right?

What you (and Feinberg) need to realize is that the drive to explain a truly free choice in this manner is really just a game of question begging because it assumes that a deterministic explaination is required.

Ciocchi, who debated Feinberg, put it this way: "the choice between available options "is what free will is all about . . ., and it is finally mysterious, beyond full explanation, for full explanations presuppose the very determinism the libertarian rejects" (Ciocchi, p. 94).

So, while there are influenctial "reasons" a person might have for making a choice these cannot necessarily be defined in terms of what "determined" the choice..for the agent himself is the determiner of his choices. That process is beyond our full comprehesion and thus remains mysterious...
 

Andy T.

Active Member
Why are you allowed to say that with regard to the "doctrines of Grace," but you won't allow us to say it with regard to the doctrines of salvation?
Because you can't [utimately] say that about your salvation. According to LFW, God can only influence you, but He cannot be the reason for your good decision. That lies with you, not with God.

And if Calvinism is true, who in there right mind would choose non-Calvinism? So, you must have a better mind than those who did.
Nope, all by the grace of God.

The reason it feels like that is because the question you are asking is the fallacy of "begging the question." That by its very definition is a cyclical fallacy which leads to confusion and repeated arguments.
I think where our disconnect lies is you do not believe that every effect has a cause, right? - Or at least, we cannot know the reason why someone believes the Gospel. If we cannot know the reason why someone believes the Gospel, then why do we share the Gospel with others? Of course, the answer to that is for someone to believe the Gospel, then they need to have the necessary information of what the Gospel is. Therefore, we know that the basis (at least in part) for believing the Gospel has to do with believing the right information. And if someone rejects that information, then they aren't being very smart in their decision, since no one in his right mind would choose hell.
 
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