Bishop John Spong re-thinks Heaven & Hell

[BillySunday1935]

Mar 12:27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

You best pray you are not standing at the judgment of the dead my friend.

:jesus:

Context! Jesus was responding to a question about marital relationships in heaven. These verses say nothing about the "saved" missing out on judgement.

Jesus tells us that "if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." It does not matter how "born again" one may be or how many experiences one has had, if he does not forgive others, he will not be forgiven, according to the text. And remember—as we have seen—no sin can enter into heaven (cf. Hb 1:13, Rv 21:27). Further, the Bible says we can "fall from grace" (Gal 5:1-5, Heb 12:14-16), be "cut off" from the vine from which we receive divine life (Jn 15:1-6, Rom 11:18-22), have our names removed from the Lamb’s book of life (Rv 22:19), and it assures us over and over again that if we commit certain sins and we do not repent of them, we will not go to heaven (cf. 1 Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19, Eph 5:3-5, Rv 21:6-8).

Peace!

 

[Revmitchell]

Wow! What religion do you represent Billy?

Not Baptist to be sure

 

[BillySunday1935]

Do you believe in purgatory too?

I believe that there is a process (instantaneous or not - God is outside of time) by which the imputation of God’s grace (through the atoning blood and sacrifice of Jesus) is applied to us for the forgiveness of sin as a final cleansing. Since nothing with sin can enter heaven and we will all die with some sin (at least I'm sure that I will), then there has to be some cleansing process before we can enter therein - some purification must take place. Call it whatever you will. Now, does this take away for the sufficiency of Jesus' one time sacrifice? No. Because, it is by this very sacrifice that this final clean-up is available to us. Without it, we would get what we deserve... the second death!

‡ Peace ‡

 

[BillySunday1935]

Not Baptist to be sure

I'm not a Baptist of your ilk to be sure.

‡ Peace ‡

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm not a Baptist of your ilk to be sure.

Not Baptist at all

 

[BillySunday1935]

Not Baptist at all

We can always rely on Rev to contribute to the discussion by ignoring substance and providing a one line non sequitur. Sweeeeet...

‡ Peace ‡

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Wow! What religion do you represent Billy?

You have to question something else with his statement. Most baptist hold that Justification and salvation are the samething. I think BillySunday is saying Justification is a part of Salvation and that Salvation is a greater consept than just justification. Everything he mentioned is scriptural. But you may want to ask how he views justification.

I hold on to the consept that salvation is like a boat. I'm in the water drowning God gives and puts me in the boat. Now as long as I stay in that boat I am living in salvation. Everything I do that keeps me there and moves me towards dry ground is salvation. However, Justification is what puts me in that boat to begin with and thats not of my doing but God's alone. Its the only way I can seem to make sense of all the scriptures. Living faith. I don't think that we can be born again with out strides to live as God wants us to. However, if most hold that justification and Salvation are equal and just synonyms of the same thing then theoretically. You can call on Jesus to be saved. Are born again then live in disobediance to the Holy Spirit and the scriptures for the rest of your life breaking not just one but all ten commandments, become a murderer and then attain heaven. I don't think that's the intention of Jesus Christ in his justification. We are to be (active) new creatures. We are created for good works that he has prepared before hand. Anyway, that is my guess. If he thinks differently then my bad but its a possibility.

 

[BillySunday1935]

You have to question something else with his statement. Most baptist hold that Justification and salvation are the samething. I think BillySunday is saying Justification is a part of Salvation and that Salvation is a greater consept than just justification. Everything he mentioned is scriptural. But you may want to ask how he views justification.

I hold on to the consept that salvation is like a boat. I'm in the water drowning God gives and puts me in the boat. Now as long as I stay in that boat I am living in salvation. Everything I do that keeps me there and moves me towards dry ground is salvation. However, Justification is what puts me in that boat to begin with and thats not of my doing but God's alone. Its the only way I can seem to make sense of all the scriptures. Living faith. I don't think that we can be born again with out strides to live as God wants us to. However, if most hold that justification and Salvation are equal and just synonyms of the same thing then theoretically. You can call on Jesus to be saved. Are born again then live in disobediance to the Holy Spirit and the scriptures for the rest of your life breaking not just one but all ten commandments, become a murderer and then attain heaven. I don't think that's the intention of Jesus Christ in his justification. We are to be (active) new creatures. We are created for good works that he has prepared before hand. Anyway, that is my guess. If he thinks differently then my bad but its a possibility.

Well said!

 

[Amy.G]

You have to question something else with his statement. Most baptist hold that Justification and salvation are the samething. I think BillySunday is saying Justification is a part of Salvation and that Salvation is a greater consept than just justification. Everything he mentioned is scriptural. But you may want to ask how he views justification.

First, I know of no Baptist that thinks that justification and sanctification are the same thing.

Second, please show me scripture that states we get a final cleaning after death?

 

[Amy.G]

I'm not a Baptist of your ilk to be sure.

‡ Peace ‡

Mr. Sunday, you sir are a Catholic.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

First, I know of no Baptist that thinks that justification and sanctification are the same thing.

Second, please show me scripture that states we get a final cleaning after death?

You misread my post. I said Justification and Salvation not sanctification. Justification is one part of salvation it puts you in the kingdom. Sanctification is another aspect of salvation its your duty and right as a kingdom citizen. And I have no Idea what you are talking about a final cleaning. I never said that. However I believe that there is growing close to God and shedding off this mortal sinful coil. Is that what you are talking about?

 

[BillySunday1935]

Mr. Sunday, you sir are a Catholic.

And you madam/sir, are a mind reader!

Peace!

 

[Amy.G]

You misread my post. I said Justification and Salvation not sanctification. Justification is one part of salvation it puts you in the kingdom. Sanctification is another aspect of salvation its your duty and right as a kingdom citizen. And I have no Idea what you are talking about a final cleaning. I never said that. However I believe that there is growing close to God and shedding off this mortal sinful coil. Is that what you are talking about?

Please forgive me. I did misread your post.


Regarding the final cleaning, I was referring to BS's (that's funny, sorry) post below;

I believe that there is a process (instantaneous or not - God is outside of time) by which the imputation of God’s grace (through the atoning blood and sacrifice of Jesus) is applied to us for the forgiveness of sin as a final cleansing. Since nothing with sin can enter heaven and we will all die with some sin (at least I'm sure that I will), then there has to be some cleansing process before we can enter therein - some purification must take place. Call it whatever you will. Now, does this take away for the sufficiency of Jesus' one time sacrifice? No. Because, it is by this very sacrifice that this final clean-up is available to us. Without it, we would get what we deserve... the second death!

 

[Amy.G]

And you madam/sir, are a mind reader!

Peace!

Sir? :laugh:
Cute.

No mind reader, just not an idiot.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Please forgive me. I did misread your post.


Regarding the final cleaning, I was referring to BS's (that's funny, sorry) post below;

I'm wondering if he's referring to the refiner's fire in Malichi 3:2

But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.

or 1 Peter 1:7

These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

 

[Amy.G]

BS, where is your scripture for this final cleansing after death?

 

[BillySunday1935]

First, I know of no Baptist that thinks that justification and sanctification are the same thing.

Second, please show me scripture that states we get a final cleaning after death?

Well, show me where scripture states that there is no final cleansing after death. Show me where everything in scripture is so clear that no outside information or authority is needed in order to interpret it. Show me where scripture says that it is formally sufficient. Not everything that Jesus said/did was written down.

Peace!

 

[Amy.G]

Well, show me where scripture states that there is no final cleansing after death. Show me where everything in scripture is so clear that no outside information or authority is needed in order to interpret it. Show me where scripture says that it is formally sufficient. Not everything that Jesus said/did was written down.

Peace!

Is that your defense? It's your claim. The burden of proof is on you.

But I will give you scripture.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Not everything that Jesus said/did was written down.

It appears that other things He said are only in your head.

 

[BillySunday1935]

BS, where is your scripture for this final cleansing after death?

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.

Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Paul’s thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner’s fire and fuller’s soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. The fuller’s soap was lye or alkaline salt that removed stains from clothing. A refiner’s fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.


Peace!

 

[Amy.G]

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.

Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Paul’s thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner’s fire and fuller’s soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. The fuller’s soap was lye or alkaline salt that removed stains from clothing. A refiner’s fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.


Peace!

There is NO mention anywhere in scripture of a 3rd place men go when they die. There is either heaven or hell.

In the passage you quote, Paul is speaking of saved people and their works. It is the works that are either accepted or burned, not the people. Paul says nothing of a 3rd place a person is sent 'til they work off their sin.
For those in Christ there is NO condemnation.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.