Moral Law Verses Ceremonial Law

[BobRyan]

None of the Scripture has been dealt with Bob. That is what you refuse to do. A number of times in that passage, the Lord God Jehovah states explicitly that the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between Israel and her generations forever. That is explicitly spelled out and repeated. You have not gone through the passage and dealt with each verse.

8 for finding fault with them, he says, "" behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 "" for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the lord: [b]I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "" and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, "know the Lord,' for all will know Me[/b], from the least to the greatest of them.
12 "" for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.''


New covenant with WHO?? "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;"

A this point we notice the "all mankind" scope and purpose for God''s own Creation Sabbath memorial


Is 66 "from Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

Gentiles were considered part of "mankind" in the OT.

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND"

Gentiles were considered part of "mankind" in the NT

Gen 2:1-3 God rested on the seventh-day and made it HOLY in Eden itself. Adam was not a Jew.

Is 56 has a specific blessing for gentiles who choose to worship God and honor the Creator of mankind by keeping the Lord's Holy day.
6 ""Also the FOREIGNERS who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning THE Sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for ALL the PEOPLES.''

You yourself have been arguing for the Ten Commandments as the Law of God - as that which still to this day "defines sin" for the Whole World. Turns out - the 4th commandment is one of the Ten Commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

D.L Moody on the subject of the 4th commandment - (and before DHK or Steaver goes there "No - D.L Moody was not SDA" -- he is just an example of a non-SDA that thought the 4th commandment was part of the Ten Commandments).

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS​

BY

DWIGHT L. MOODY​

The Ten Commandments:​

Exodus 20:2-17 ​

.​

The Fourth Commandment

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy[/b]. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [b]for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.[/b]​

THERE HAS BEEN an [b]awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day[/b], and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

[b]I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

.​

HOW TBSERVE THE SABBATH​

"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy.[/b]
[/quote]
…





[b]Mr. Gladstone recently told a friend that the secret of his long life is that amid all the pressure of public cares he never forgot the Sabbath, with its rest for the body and the soul.
·
When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday,
…
Make the Sabbath a day of religious activity. First of all, of course, is attendance at public worship. "There is a discrepancy," says John McNeill, "between our creed about the Sabbath day and our actual conduct. In many families, at ten o'clock on the Sabbath, attendance at church is still an open question. There is no open question on Monday morning- 'John, will you go to work today.'"

…
Someone has said that without the Sabbath, the Church of Christ could not, as a visible organization, exist on earth.
…
Parents, if you want your children to grow up and honor you, have them honor the Sabbath day.

 

[DHK]

D.L Moody on the subject of the 4th commandment - (and before DHK or Steaver goes there "No - D.L Moody was not SDA" -- he is just an example of a non-SDA that thought the 4th commandment was part of the Ten Commandments).

Bob, I didn't read it; don't care about; was about to delete it, but didn't.
If you can't debate Scripture without EGW and others then I pity you.

 

[DHK]

Bob, for all your boisterous tirades all this time, you have been dead wrong.

Moody said:

When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday,

That is the so-called "Christian Sabbath". It is keeping holy Sunday not Saturday. Sundown on Saturday is not very long. Then the whole of Sunday is observed which is when Moody would preach. He didn't preach in the middle of the night on Saturday. That is your absurd position!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't read well do you.
During his time there was A "Christian Sabbath," a term used that we simply call Sunday, a day of rest.

For all your fluff, you have been dead wrong about Moody keeping the Sabbath. He never did.

 

[steaver]

.​

HOW TBSERVE THE SABBATH​

Maybe it would be helpful if you would tell us how you and the SDA observe the sabbath.

Can you give scripture as to how God expects us to observe the sabbath and how you follow this?

 

[BobRyan]

Moody appears to directly attack some of DHKs most adamant points on this topic -

THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day[/b], and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

[b]I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

Bob, for all your boisterous tirades all this time, you have been dead wrong.

Moody said:

That is the so-called "Christian Sabbath".

I have never argued that Moody was not trying to edit the Commandments in some way. Just that he makes arguments that directly refute your wild assertions.

It is keeping holy Sunday not Saturday. Sundown on Saturday is not very long. Then the whole of Sunday is observed which is when Moody would preach. He didn't preach in the middle of the night on Saturday. That is your absurd position!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again your policy of just "making stuff up" does not work as well as you must have at first imagined.

The objective unbiased reader has never seen me argue that Moody was preaching on Saturdays. Your fictions are easily dispatched.

You don't read well do you.
During his time there was A "Christian Sabbath," a term used that we simply call Sunday, a day of rest.

For all your fluff, you have been dead wrong about Moody keeping the Sabbath. He never did.

1. CESSATION FROM SECULAR WORK
A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday.

My argument is not that Moody was SDA - my argument is that some of the very off-the-wall positions taken by DHK and shown to be in violation of God's Word - are the very positions that D.L Moody also condemns.

But DHK - you rely so heavily on your imagination to make your case - that you simply stumble from one blunder to the next - all because you refuse to read.

Thus I cannot help pointing out the need for you to read the posts - read the texts given as proof and respond with substance.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe it would be helpful if you would tell us how you and the SDA observe the sabbath.

Can you give scripture as to how God expects us to observe the sabbath and how you follow this?

Isaiah 58 comes to mind.

So also Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Since you simply look for someone else's opinions instead of taking a sola scriptura approach to these topics -- heree are the opinions of a non-SDA - D.L Moody on the point you ask about.

SABBATH DESECRATION​

Men seem to think they have a right to change the holy day into a holiday. The young have more temptations to break the Sabbath than we had forty years ago.[/b] There are three great temptations: first the trolley car, that will take you off into the country for a nickel to have a day of recreation; second, the bicycle, which is leading a good many Christian men to give up their Sabbath and spend the day on excursions; and the third, the Sunday newspaper.

Twenty years ago Christian people in Chicago would have been horrified if anyone had prophesied that all the theaters would be open every Sabbath; but that is what has come to pass. If it had been prophesied twenty years ago that Christian men would take a wheel and go off on Sunday morning and be gone all day on an excursion, Christians would have been horrified and would have said it was impossible; but that is what is going on today all over the country.

• THE SUNDAY NEWSPAPER

With regard to the Sunday newspaper, I know all the arguments that are brought in its favor- that the work on it is done during the week, that it is the Monday paper that causes Sunday work, and so on. But there are two hundred thousand newsboys selling the paper on Sunday. Would you like to have your boy one of them? Men are kept running trains in order to distribute the papers. Would you like your Sabbath taken away from you? If not, then practice the Golden Rule, and don't touch the papers.
Their contents make them unfit for reading any day, not to say Sunday. Some New York dailies advertise Sunday editions of sixty pages. Many dirty pieces of scandal in this and other countries are raked up and put into them. "Eight pages of fun!"- that is splendid reading for Sunday, isn't it? Even when a so-called sermon is printed, it is completely buried by the fiction and news matter. It is time that ministers went into their pulpits and preached against Sunday newspapers if they haven't done it already.

Put the man in the scales that buys and reads Sunday papers. After reading them for two or three hours he might go and hear the best sermon in the world, but you couldn't preach anything into him. His mind is filled up with what he has read, and there is no room for thoughts of God. I believe that the archangel Gabriel himself could not make an impression on an audience that has its head full of such trash. If you bored a hole into a man's head, you could not inject any thoughts of God and heaven.

I don't believe that the publishers would allow their own children to read them. Why then should they give them to my children and to yours?

A merchant who advertises in Sunday papers is not keeping the Sabbath. It is a master-stroke of the devil to induce Christian men to do this in order to make trade for Monday. But if a man makes money, and yet his sons are ruined and his home broken up, what has he gained?

Ladies buy the Sunday papers and read the advertisements of Monday bargains to see what they can buy cheap. Just so with their religion. They are willing to have it if it doesn't cost anything. If Christian men and women refused to buy them, if Christian merchants refused to advertise in them, they would soon die out, because that is where they get most of their support.

They tell me the Sunday paper has come to stay, and I may as well let it alone. Never! I believe it is a great evil, and I shall fight it while I live. I never read a Sunday paper, and wouldn't have one in my house. They are often sent me, but I tear them up without reading them. I will have nothing to do with them. They do more harm to religion than any other one agency I know. Their whole influence is against keeping the Sabbath holy. They are an unnecessary evil. Can't a man read enough news on weekdays without desecrating the Sabbath? We had no Sunday papers till the war came, and we got along very well without them. They have been increasing in size and in number ever since then, and I think they have been lowering their tone ever since. If you believe that, help to fight them too. Stamp them out, beginning with yourself.

.
PUNISHMENT OR BLESSING?​

No nation has ever prospered that has trampled the Sabbath in the dust. Show me a nation that has done this and I will show you a nation that has got in it the seeds of ruin and decay. I believe that Sabbath desecration will carry a nation down quicker than anything else. Adam brought marriage and the Sabbath with him out of Eden, and neither can be disregarded without suffering. When the children of Israel went into the Promised Land, God told them to let their land rest every seven years, and He would give them as much in six years as in seven. For four hundred and ninety years they disregarded that law. But mark you, Nebuchadnezzar came and took them off into Babylon, and kept them seventy years in captivity, and the land had its seventy sabbaths of rest. Seven times seventy is four hundred and ninety. So they did not gain much by breaking this law. You can give God His day, or He will take it.

On the other hand, honoring the fourth commandment brings blessing:
"If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." (Isaiah 58:13-14)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

My argument is not that Moody was SDA - my argument is that some of the very off-the-wall positions taken by DHK and shown to be in violation of God's Word - are the very positions that D.L Moody also condemns.

You could only wish Bob. You have hypocritically been using Moody all this time. He does not believe in the Sabbath, and may I say that you lie every time you say that he does. His definition of the "Sabbath" is different. It simply means "Sunday," and by that definition there are many Baptists that would agree with him. The principle of one day of rest out of seven ought to be observed, and we happen to observe it on Sunday, a day that in Moody's time was called the "Sabbath" or "Christian Sabbath." You are either confused or deceitful. I believe it is the latter.

But DHK - you rely so heavily on your imagination to make your case - that you simply stumble from one blunder to the next - all because you refuse to read.

Yes, normally I don't read long lengthy posts written by others (i.e. copy and paste). I want to hear what you have to say. But on two different threads after pages of request I have yet to hear what you have to say on Exodus 31:13-18. You would rather quote Moody; cut and paste different lengthy passages with little or no explanation, etc.

Thus I cannot help pointing out the need for you to read the posts - read the texts given as proof and respond with substance.

in Christ,
Bob

I am familiar with the Bible Bob. You can quote all the Scripture you want. It is obvious that you, a Mormon, and J.W. can all quote the same Scripture and tell a different story about it. Thus copying and pasting Scripture does no good. Unless you are going to give a half decent explanation with each verse you post it is meaningless. Don't assume that we all know your SDA interpretation. Rather state it so we don't have to assume it.

 

[DHK]

Isaiah 58 comes to mind.

So also Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Since you simply look for someone else's opinions instead of taking a sola scriptura approach to these topics -- heree are the opinions of a non-SDA - D.L Moody on the point you ask about.



in Christ,

Bob

First, notice how the article interchanges "Sabbath" and "Sunday" throughout.

Second, notice how Bob completely evades Steaver's question. This is typical. As he doesn't answer my questions, neither will he give a direct answer to Steaver.

 

[steaver]

Isaiah 58 comes to mind.

So also Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Since you simply look for someone else's opinions instead of taking a sola scriptura approach to these topics -- heree are the opinions of a non-SDA - D.L Moody on the point you ask about.



in Christ,

Bob

Why would you scold me for seeking a opinion and then post someone else's opinion as an answer? Why not just share how you observe the Sabbath?

Isa 58:13¶If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:

Tell us how you obey this scripture?
Does taking a nap fall under "thy pleasure"?
How about a cook out among friends?
How about debating scripture on this BB speaking in your own words?
Do you ever speak any words that are not directed towards God on the Sabbath?

Are you declaring you never do anything on the Sabbath that you find personal pleasure in apart from thinking on God and speaking only of God for this 24 hour period?

Do you really understand the strickness this commandment requires for it to be considered "observed"?

Maybe you are breaking the commandment every week. You wouldn't tell us what you do in secret I'm sure.

 

[BobRyan]

Moody appears to directly attack some of DHKs most adamant points on this topic -


I have never argued that Moody was not trying to edit the Commandments in some way. Just that he makes arguments that directly refute your wild assertions.

First, notice how the article interchanges "Sabbath" and "Sunday" throughout.

Hence my comment above about his "edit" of the Word of God to some degree.

Still that does not negate the fact that your positions are flatly condemned in Moody's statements on the continued authority of the 4th commandment from Eden until today.

Second, notice how Bob completely evades Steaver's question. This is typical.

Whuhhhut??

Steaver simply games along the lines of "lets not talk about the Bible" - I prefer the Bible as it turns out.

Sola scriptura you know - means that at some point we have to be willing to open our Bibles

I was hoping Steaver would not find that point "too disturbing" apparently you too are troubled by it.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I keep pointing to just a few of the many places where D.L Moody flatly contradicts some of DHK's arguments.

Notice that he goes directly after DHK's downsized-nine argument.

You could only wish Bob. You have hypocritically been using Moody all this time.

Empty accusation after empty accusation - does not solve your problem "from the text" as quoted above the way you appear to have imagined that it would.

The point remains -

And as I have said repeatedly - I never claimed that Moody was not in some way editing God's commandments - just that he has the continued authority - argument that so directly refutes your positions.

He does not believe in the Sabbath

It appears that Moody thinks HE DOES believe in the Sabbath.

Originally Posted by D.L Moody
THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day[/b], and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

[b]I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Why would you scold me for seeking a opinion and then post someone else's opinion as an answer? Why not just share how you observe the Sabbath?

Isa 58:13¶If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:

D.L Moody references the exact same text of scripture.

PUNISHMENT OR BLESSING?No nation has ever prospered that has trampled the Sabbath in the dust. Show me a nation that has done this and I will show you a nation that has got in it the seeds of ruin and decay. I believe that Sabbath desecration will carry a nation down quicker than anything else. Adam brought marriage and the Sabbath with him out of Eden, and neither can be disregarded without suffering. When the children of Israel went into the Promised Land, God told them to let their land rest every seven years, and He would give them as much in six years as in seven. For four hundred and ninety years they disregarded that law. But mark you, Nebuchadnezzar came and took them off into Babylon, and kept them seventy years in captivity, and the land had its seventy sabbaths of rest. Seven times seventy is four hundred and ninety. So they did not gain much by breaking this law. You can give God His day, or He will take it.

On the other hand, honoring the fourth commandment brings blessing:
"If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." (Isaiah 58:13-14)

Tell us how you obey this scripture?
Does taking a nap fall under "thy pleasure"?

Surely you can read D.L Moody's sermon on the Sabbath. Just before he speaks to the "Punishment or Blessing" aspect he addressed the "How to observe" topic.

You have been given the link - simply "read" and you will get "someone's opinion" - to go along with the bible text you are anxious to "not understand".

By the way - I find it facinating that the Catholic church argues that simplyl reading the bible is "not enough" and that someone needs to then TELL you what to think - what to believe, how to read it, what it says.

How odd that I keep getting that SAME argument from a couple of Baptist posters on this web site when it comes to God's Commandments!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Surely you can read D.L Moody's sermon on the Sabbath. Just before he speaks to the "Punishment or Blessing" aspect he addressed the "How to observe" topic.

Steaver asks a question. BobRyan won't answer it.
Instead he says: Moody addressed it, read him.

You have been given the link - simply "read" and you will get "someone's opinion" - to go along with the bible text you are anxious to "not understand".

Steaver asked a question.
BobRyan answered: I gave you the link, just read it.

By the way - I find it facinating that the Catholic church argues that simplyl reading the bible is "not enough" and that someone needs to then TELL you what to think - what to believe, how to read it, what it says.

Bob Ryan supports his answer with RCC practice to be mindless, avoid the Bible and read what others say.

How odd that I keep getting that SAME argument from a couple of Baptist posters on this web site when it comes to God's Commandments!!

To Steaver's questions, BobRyan answers that he is getting the same answer--go to the Word and not a man. But BobRyan continues to demand from us to read from a man and not the Word.
This is a very telling conclusion. Bob cannot support his position without outside sources. He cannot speak for himself. He cannot defend from Scripture his own position. It seems that he does not believe in sola scriptura after all.

When asked for a clear gospel presentation, he was unable to do that. It seems as if he doesn't know what the gospel is.

 

[BobRyan]

To Steaver's questions, BobRyan answers that he is getting the same answer--go to the Word and not a man. But BobRyan continues to demand from us to read from a man and not the Word.
This is a very telling conclusion.

Making stuff up - continues not to serve your argument as well as you seem to have hoped.

1. Steaver keeps asking for the word of man instead of the Word of God - I give him D.L.Moody to kick-against if that is his wish.

2. You whine that only and Adventist would see that Christ said that the Sabbath was made for mankind - in Eden and I quickly debunk your wild speculation showing that non-SDA sources like D.L.Moody explicitly condemn your wild unbiblical solutions for getting around the Word of God.

This is all transparently obvious to the unbiased objective readers - not sure why you pretend to be stumped by it. These are the a-b-c basics so far.

Your claim that you "don't read" when I post details that do not fit your speculative claims - does more to expose your argument than you may have at first imagined.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Making stuff up - continues not to serve your argument as well as you seem to have hoped.

1. Steaver keeps asking for the word of man instead of the Word of God - I give him D.L.Moody to kick-against if that is his wish.

2. You whine that only and Adventist would see that Christ said that the Sabbath was made for mankind - in Eden and I quickly debunk your wild speculation showing that non-SDA sources like D.L.Moody explicitly condemn your wild unbiblical solutions for getting around the Word of God.

This is all transparently obvious to the unbiased objective readers - not sure why you pretend to be stumped by it. These are the a-b-c basics so far.

Your claim that you "don't read" when I post details that do not fit your speculative claims - does more to expose your argument than you may have at first imagined.



in Christ,

Bob

You are so blind you will not admit it.
Moody does not believe in keeping the Sabbath. That is an outright lie. He uses the word "Sabbath" as a synonym for "Sunday." The two words are used interchangeably. To say that he kept the Sabbath is a lie. Why do you continue in your deception on this board. You have exposed nothing except for two things:

1. You refuse to answer questions directly asked of you.
1. You deliberately lie concerning another's belief.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Moral Law Verses Ceremonial Law

There's no such thing!

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All,

Something to consider:

Part One:

If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis?

Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath. Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath?

Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about the Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Gen 4:3-4, Altars Gen 8:20, Priests: Gen 14:18, Tithes: Gen 14:20, Circumcision: Gen 17:10, Marriage: Gen 2:24 & Gen 34:9. Why would God leave out the "all important" Sabbath command?

If the fact that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone proves they are forever, then whatever happened to the two stone tablets that God gave Adam at the beginning of time? Why is Moses the first one to see a stone tablet written by the finger of God?

Why is the weekly Sabbath commandment never quoted in the New Testament?

Why is the Sabbath the only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your generations", the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary ceremonial law only for the Jews?

Why is there no example of exclusively Christians coming together on the Sabbath day as a church or prayer meeting after the resurrection of Christ?
Why is there no command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy?

While Paul taught in the synagogues up to 84 times, why does the Bible never say he kept the sabbath?

How could Adam, Noah and Abraham keep the Sabbath, when Deuteronomy 5:2-4 says that the 10 commandment covenant was "not made with any of the fathers of Israel who lived before Moses."

If we must follow the example of Jesus in all things like keeping the Sabbath, then why do Sabbatarians not follow the example of Jesus in circumcision, animal sacrifices and keeping Passover?

If the Sabbath was for Gentiles and Adam, Noah and Abraham, then why is the Sabbath a sign to remind them of their exodus from Egypt? Exodus 16:23,29; 31:13-18. Were either Abraham or Seventh Day Adventists ever slaves in Egypt?

If the Sabbath law is still in force, then why do they not stone their own members when they break the Sabbath as the law said?

Ellen G. White, who is considered inspired by Seventh-day Adventists, said that the Pope changed the Sabbath in about 321 AD. Why do all Adventists today reject their inspired prophet and say the change of the Sabbath occurred in about 140 AD? If White was wrong about this, was she wrong when she traveled to heaven and saw the 4th commandment glowing brighter than all the rest?

If the current position of the Seventh-day Adventist church is that the change from Saturday to Sunday took place in 140 AD, doesn’t that mean that they have come a long way from Whites 325 AD and have only 40 more years to travel to reach the truth of the Apostolic age?

If the change from Saturday to Sunday happened, why is there absolutely no discussion of this change of actual day for the first 600 years of church history. Merely calling Sunday the Sabbath doesn’t count!

If Sabbatarians reject White’s inspiration, that Constantine changed the Sabbath day to Sunday, why do they keep bringing Constantine up as proof?

If Constantine changed the Sabbath to Sunday, why does he merely legislate that work must stop on Sunday with no actual mention of the day being moved?

If the first/old covenant was abolished according to Heb 8:13 and the Ten commandment law was that first covenant (Ex 34:27-28; 1 Kings 8:9,21; Heb 9:1-4), then why do Sabbatarians want to keep the first/old covenant?
Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians never kept the Sabbath (7th day) and have always worshipped on Sunday?

Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians ate the Lord’s Supper every Sunday in the tradition of Acts 20:7?

Why is the universal record of history (75-500AD) 100% in unanimous agreement that Christians always called Sunday the Lord’s Day because, they said, this was the day Jesus rose from the dead?

Why has no Sabbatarian every produced even one historical quote (75-500AD) that says Christians kept the Sabbath?

If the Sabbath is not a ceremonial law, then why is it lumped into the same identical class of "holy convocations" as the rest of the Jewish feast days? Lev 23:2; Ex 20:9; 31:17

If the 10 commandments remain but the book of law was abolished, then why did God put two copies of the 10 commandments in the book of the law? Ex 20; Deut 5

How can there possibly be an difference between "the law of God" and the "Law of Moses" when God gave the Law of Moses (Ezra 7:6; Neh 8:1) and Moses gave the Law of God (Neh 10:29; 2 Chron 34:14)?

If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why are the Jewish feast days called part of the Law of the Lord? (2 Chron 331:3)

If there is a distinction between the moral and ceremonial laws, why in a single chapter of Nehemiah 8 are the following phrases all used interchangeably: "book of the law of Moses" v1, "the law" v2, "book of the law" v3, "the law of god" v8, "book of the law of god" v18?

Why are the two most important commandments contained within the "ceremonial law of Moses that was Sabbatarians say was nailed to the cross? (Matthew 22:36-40)

Why did Jesus say Moses gave the 10 commandment law: "Thou shalt not kill" in Jn 7:19?

If the Sabbath cannot change, because God cannot change (Mal 3:6) then what about all the other feast days and laws that changed? Heb 7:12. And why did Jesus give a "a new commandment" in John 13:34?

If the ten commandments are going to be in heaven, what is the use of "thou shalt not commit adultery", if there is no marriage in heaven? Lk 20:34-35

If the Sabbath was given to all men, why were Gentiles called "strangers". Why were Gentiles outside the gates not required to keep the Sabbath? Ex 20:10.

How could the Sabbath be a sign between God and Israel, if all nations were expected to keep it? Ex 31:17

Why did God send the Jews into Babylonian Captivity for breaking the Sabbath, but never ever criticized any Gentiles for never keeping the Sabbath?

Why did God often criticize the Gentiles via the prophets for moral violations, but never for not keeping the Sabbath?

If the Gentiles were supposed to keep the Sabbath, why are they called "strangers of the Covenant" in Eph 2:12?

If the term, "the law" always means the 10 commandments, then why is Leviticus called "The Law" in Mt 22:35ff, Numbers called "The Law" in Mt 12:5, Deuteronomy called "The Law" in Mt 22:35f, Psalms called "The Law" in Jn 10:34,45, Rom 3:10-12; 3:13-14,19, the Prophets called "The Law" in 1 Cor 14:21 and the Ten commandments are called "The Law" that is abolished in Rom 7:4-7?

If the term "commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then why are the laws that are not part of the ten commandments but called commandments in Mt 19:16-19 not also included?

If the term "commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then what did Paul call the injunction for prophet’s wives to keep silent in the assemblies, a "commandment of the Lord" in 1 Cor 14:37?

If the term "keep my commandments" always means the 10 commandments, then why is this a new commandment? Jn 15:10-12 + Jn 13:34.

If only the ten commandments are going to endure until heaven and earth pass away, why did Jesus say the law AND THE PROPHETS? Mt 5:17-18

When Jesus was asked, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" why did Jesus NOT QUOTE from the 10 commandments, but from the abolished ceremonial law of Moses? Matthew 22:36-40

If the 10 commandments are the highest and most complete expression of God’s will, then why did it lack the two most important commandments?

Matthew 22:36-40 where is the prohibition against drunkeness, homosexuality and fornication?

If the 10 commandments are the highest and most complete expression of God’s will, then why did Jesus give a new commandment to "love one another, even as I have loved you" John 13:34. Where were the Jews told to love their neighbor as Yahweh loved them?

If Christians worshipping on Sunday is equal to Sun Worship, then is Adventists worshipping on Saturday equal to Saturn worship?

If Sabbatarians will boldly quote "scholars" who are really Bible trashers and skeptics who claim "the origin of Sunday worship is entirely pagan", like Arthur Weigall in his ridiculous little book, "the paganism in our Christianity", will these same Sabbatarians turn a few pages later where these same authors say the origin of the Sabbath is also pagan? "I have, already mentioned that Sunday, too, was a pagan holy-day; and in this chapter I propose to discuss the origin of this custom of keeping one day in the week as a Sabbath, or "day of rest,' and' to show that the practice was forcefully opposed by Jesus Christ. The origin of the seven-day week which was used by the Jews and certain other peoples, but not till, later by the Greeks or Romans, is to be sought in some primitive worship of the moon (The Paganism in Our Christianity, Arthur Weigall, 1928, p209,210-211)

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All,

Part Two:

If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did Jesus say that David, the priests, a man with his donkey could all break the Sabbath without sin? Mt 12:1-14; Mk 2:23f, Lk 13:10-17; 14:1-6 Jn 5:8-18; 7:19-24; 9:14-16.

If the Sabbath is a moral law, why did God grow tired of the Jews keeping it and told them to stop keeping the Sabbath? Isa 1:13-14 Did God ever grow weary of anyone not committing adultery or murder, and tell them to be immoral and kill?

If the Sabbath is a moral law, how could Jesus break it without sinning? Jn 5:18

If one of the distinctions between the ten commandments was proven by the fact they were written by the finger of God, why did Moses copy them out twice with his own hand? How can there be any distinction between the 10 commandments in the ark and the book of the law beside the ark, if the book contained two copies of exactly what was in the ark?

Why are the terms "ceremonial law" and "moral law" never found in the Bible.

Why is the word ceremonial or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW and why is the word moral or any of its roots never found in the same verse as the word LAW?

If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why do "God’s laws" and "the law of God" contain ceremonial laws. Why do "Moses law" and the "law of Moses" contain moral laws?

If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, why does the "law of God" command animal sacrifices Lk 2:23-24 and the "law of the Lord" contains burnt offerings 2 Chron 31:3; 1 Chron 16:40?

If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why is the book of the law filled with moral laws not contained in the 10 commandments?

If there is a distinction between the Law of the Lord and the Law of Moses, why in 2 Chron 35:26 are "the acts of Josiah and his deeds of devotion as written in the law of the Lord"?

If there is a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws, then why does the Law of God include new moons, solemn feast days: Ps 81:3-4?

If there is a distinction between the Law of the Lord and the Law of Moses, why did the law tell Israel to dwell in tents: Neh 8:14?

When you ask me, "if the 10 commandments are abolished, does that mean we can steal", can I ask you, "when you travel from Canada to the USA, does that mean you can steal? Is it possible that two completely different "codes of law" (law of Moses vs. law of Christ) have the same laws just like Canada and the USA?

If the Jewish law against eating pork was abolished by Christ, why do Sabbatarians continue to enforce what they call, "the ceremonial law of Moses": Mk 7:18-19; 1 Tim 4:1-4; Rom 14:2; Acts 10:9-16

If the Jewish Sabbath was abolished in Col 2:14-16, yet Sabbatarians keep the Sabbath, which itself is the only ceremonial law of the 10 commandments?
Why do you practice Tithing which is Prohibited: 2 Cor 9:7 forbid Eating Pork, which is Permitted: Mk 7:18-19 and keep the Sabbath which is Abolished: Col 2:14-16? Aren’t all three of these ceremonial laws?

When Sabbatarians attempt to prove there is a distinction between the moral vs. ceremonial laws, the law of God vs. the Law of Moses, the 10 commandments vs. the book of the law, and they show countless bible passages that destroy any distinction Sabbatarians might dream up, will they at least be honest and admit they need to find some definitive way to create this false distinction that does not exist in the Bible and will try again tomorrow?

Why do you refuse to accept that Col 2:16 contains the Old Testament pattern of referring to the Jewish holy days in a yearly, monthly, weekly sequence as in 1 Chronicles 23:31, 2 Chronicles 31:3, 2 Chronicles 8:13, 2 Chronicles 2:4, Nehemiah 10:33, Ezekiel 45:17, Hosea 2:11, Galatians 4:10?

If the plural "sabbaton" in Col 2:16 cannot refer to weekly Sabbath day, then why does plural "sabbaton" refer to the weekly Sabbath day in Matthew 28:1, Luke 4:16, Acts 16:13, Exodus 20:8 (in Septuagint) Leviticus 23:37-38 (in Septuagint)?

If in Col 2:16, the lack of the definite article before the word "Sabbath" in the Greek proves it cannot refer to the weekly Sabbath, then why does the weekly Sabbath lack the definite article in Matthew 28:1, John 5:9, 10, 16?

If Isa 66:23 proves the Sabbath will be in heaven, will the new moon festival also be there? "from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath".

If Hebrews 4 teaches we are to keep the weekly Sabbath, then why does the text say we are to enter a rest that none of the Jews at the time of Joshua in the promised land ever experienced in v 8?

If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "eternal" then won’t all the Jewish feasts and circumcision also endure because it is also called eternal in Gen 17:10-14 (same Hebrew word used)

If the Sabbath will endure forever because it is called "holy" then won’t all the Jewish feasts also endure forever because they are also called holy?

If the Sabbath will endure forever because God hallowed it, then won’t Solomon's temple Ps 65:4; 1 Ki 9:3 and the vessels in the tabernacle Ex 40:9; Num 31:6; 1 Ki 8:4 also endure forever because God hallowed them too?

If the Sabbath will endure forever because it was an eternal sign between God and his people, then shouldn’t we also still practice circumcision Gen 17:11 and Passover Ex 12:13 because it too is called an eternal sign between God and his people?

If it is only through the Sabbath that we can know that it is God who sanctifies us Ex 31:13, then what ever happened to faith in Christ sanctifying us? And if we should therefore keep the Sabbath, then we must also build the tabernacle, for the Bible says through it we may know it is God who sanctifies us Ezel 37:28?

If the fact that the Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament after Pentecost proves it is still in force, then does the mention of The Day of Pentecost Acts 2:1, The days of unleavened bread Acts 12:3; 20:6, Days of Purification: Acts 21:26, Animal Sacrifices: Acts 21:26, Circumcision: Acts 16:3, Temple worship: Acts 24:12 prove we must keep these too because they are also mentioned and must therefore also still be in force like the Sabbath?

If Seventh-day Adventists want to deny that their official position is that worshipping on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast, do they realize that the "inspired" Ellen G. White, Uriah Smith, the Advent review and Leo Schreven (who conducts "Revelation seminars" today) all call it the mark of the beast?

Christians can find 21 reasons why the first day of the week is significant to their faith as Christians in the New Testament. Can Sabbatarians find even one reason in the New Testament why the Sabbath has any meaning distinct to Christians?

Did you know that the Jewish Sabbath was significant to the Jews because it was a memorial of this present physical creation and their deliverance from the bondage of Egypt and that the first day of the week is a memorial of our new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5:7) and our deliverance from the bondage of sin. (Gal 4:4-5; Eph 1:7)

Did you know that regardless of whether the Sadducee’s or Pharisee’s method of calculating Pentecost was used the year Christ died, both would calculate Pentecost in Acts 2:1 as the first day of the week. Did you also know that the official position of the Seventh-day Adventist church was that Pentecost in Acts 2:1 fell on a Sunday that year?

Do you realize that the phrase, "that no collections be made when I come" in 1 Cor 16:2 proves the Christians were forbidden from saving up their offerings each week at home and demanded they put it into a common treasury every Sunday?

Did you know that 1 Cor 16:2 actually says, "EVERY 1st day" because the same Greek phrase is also found in Acts 13:14 "appointed elders in EVERY church". Did you know that you must give every 1st day of the week in to the church’s common treasury?

If Jesus died on Wednesday and rose on the Sabbath rather than a Friday - Sunday duration because you demand a full 72 hours in the grave, then why did Jesus count the Friday - Sunday duration as three days in Lk 13:32?

If Jesus died on Wednesday and rose on the Sabbath rather than a Friday - Sunday duration because you demand a full 72 hours in the grave, why is exactly a 72 hour period called 4 days by Peter in Acts 10:3+9+23+24+30?

If the fact that the 10 commandments were written in stone, that proves they will never be abolished, then where was Adam’s stone copy of the 10 commandments? Why did God not give Adam a stone copy once for all time?

Why is it that Moses was first person in history to not only see the 10 commandments, but the first person to hold the stone tablets upon which the 10 commandments were written? Why do Seventh-day Adventists argue that the ten commandment law is no longer written in stone, but in the flesh of the human heart in 2 Corinthians 3:3? (Of course 2 Cor 3:3 says the 10 commandments were abolished and the new Covenant, the law of Christ is written on human hearts)

If only the 10 commandments we can "live", then why does Ezek 20:11 say this of the "ceremonial law", "I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live." (Ezek 20:11)?

Something to consider.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello to All,

Note, the previous two posts are not meant to anger those who may be SDA (who are prominently mentioned), but are given for all who are legalistic in nature to ponder.

God bless.

(P.S.-I can't take credit for the time it must have taken to compile this series of questions, this is somebody else's labor)