Three-fold nature of Man

[The Archangel]

The literal Hebrew says "dying that shalt surely die." Death was a process rather than instant. For example, God said "in the day" they eat they eat "dying that shalt surely die." They did not die physically in the day they ate. Physically he died over 930 years later. However, the process of physical death began that very day (aging process). Their soul did not die. Intellectual, volitional and emotional self expression continued to exist another 930 years. They suffered spiritual death instantly in that day. God breathed plural "lives" (Hebrew plural) into Adam. Spiritual life, soulish life, physical life.

Friend,

I want to caution you here. Your understanding of a trichotomy based on "the plural 'lives'" is not germane to Hebrew. This word is usually presented in the plural ending, but it is rarely, if ever, translated or understood as plural.

The tree of life contains the same plural "lives," but you wouldn't say there was more than one tree. Spring water in Genesis 26:19 is called "living" (Plural) water. That just means that it is not stagnant water, rather it is water coming from a spring. The ESV rightly translates it as "spring water."

In Genesis 27:46, Isaac and Rebekah are talking about a wife for Jacob and Rebekah asks "what good would my life be to me?" The word "life" is the same as you refer to in Genesis 2:7 and it clearly is not translated as a plural, it is not intended to convey a plural idea--although the form is plural.

A similar concept may be the plural "Elohim." Obviously this word has the plural "im" ending. However, we do not and cannot consider that there is more than one God. By usage alone, we see this word has a plural form, yet it is always singular in meaning when referring to YHWH.

So, you are reading your trichotomist understanding of man into Genesis 2:7. That text or subsequent texts that have the same word in its plural form do not support your presupposition. As always, you are free to argue for the trichotomist understanding (as wrong as I may think it is). But, you cannot do it from Genesis 2:7 based on a plural-constructed word that typically has a singular meaning.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thanks for the caution, but yes, I believe there is a PLURAL application of life in the tree. It's leaves are for the saved gentiles (Rev. 22:2; 21:24) whereas its fruit is for the overcoming church members (Rev. 2:7).

I fully understand that the Hebrew plural may be used for the idea of abundance or plural of majesties in some cases but not in all cases especially where there is abundance of scripture to support it. I believe the scriptures support my use and does so "abundantly."

If I were basing my doctrine upon Genesis 2:7 alone your point is well taken but I am not. Genesis 2:7 is only being used as a supportive text.

Friend,

I want to caution you here. Your understanding of a trichotomy based on "the plural 'lives'" is not germane to Hebrew. This word is usually presented in the plural ending, but it is rarely, if ever, translated or understood as plural.

The tree of life contains the same plural "lives," but you wouldn't say there was more than one tree. Spring water in Genesis 26:19 is called "living" (Plural) water. That just means that it is not stagnant water, rather it is water coming from a spring. The ESV rightly translates it as "spring water."

In Genesis 27:46, Isaac and Rebekah are talking about a wife for Jacob and Rebekah asks "what good would my life be to me?" The word "life" is the same as you refer to in Genesis 2:7 and it clearly is not translated as a plural, it is not intended to convey a plural idea--although the form is plural.

A similar concept may be the plural "Elohim." Obviously this word has the plural "im" ending. However, we do not and cannot consider that there is more than one God. By usage alone, we see this word has a plural form, yet it is always singular in meaning when referring to YHWH.

So, you are reading your trichotomist understanding of man into Genesis 2:7. That text or subsequent texts that have the same word in its plural form do not support your presupposition. As always, you are free to argue for the trichotomist understanding (as wrong as I may think it is). But, you cannot do it from Genesis 2:7 based on a plural-constructed word that typically has a singular meaning.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[percho]

Dr Walter

What did Paul mean about not wanting to be found naked? Has he been found yet? Does being found not pertain to when Jesus appears again? Would you agree that 2 Cor. 5:1-4 is totally about resurrection to life which he begins talking about in chapter four. Same language as in 1 Cor. 15:50-53 which takes place at a very precise time. Then we have verse 5 that says the same thing as Ephesians 1:13,14 UNTIL. Does until happen at death or the resurrection? I think the resurrection. Verse 6 begins with therefore always confident tying whatever comes after this to the earnest of the Spirit which is until? A question here. Is the the purchased possession some body that may have rotted away thousands of years ago or is it Peter, Jack or Alice the person that once was alive but isn't now? Paul states that while we are in this earthly body that will rot away we are absent from the Lord and he would rather be absent from this earthly body and be found in his heavenly body in the presence of the Lord not naked. Whenever that takes place. He has the earnest of the Spirit that he will have another body. When?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Paul was giving His preference. He wanted to be living in his body when Jesus came from heaven. The only other alternative was the "naked" state of the soul/spirit or the spirit/soul existing apart from the body. However, even in that bodiless state of Paul, he would enter into the mansions in heaven while he awaited the resurrection when Christ would bring his immaterial self with him to be rejoined with his glorified body:

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Regardless, Paul was confident that if he stayed in his body the Lord was with him here on earth but if out of the body he would be present with the Lord in heaven. This confidency your position cannot have as you have complete cessation of Paul between physical death and the second coming.


Furthermore, the explicit language will not fit your position. There is something at "home in the body" and there is something "present with the Lord" at physical death that leaves the body so that it is no longer his home until the resurrection. The Aorist infinitives also deny such a gap of conscious existence between phyiscal death and the resurrection.

Your position is that of the Saduccees which both Paul and Christ refuted as it was the position of the Saduccees that at physical death all conscious existence ceased.

Dr Walter

What did Paul mean about not wanting to be found naked? Has he been found yet? Does being found not pertain to when Jesus appears again? Would you agree that 2 Cor. 5:1-4 is totally about resurrection to life which he begins talking about in chapter four. Same language as in 1 Cor. 15:50-53 which takes place at a very precise time. Then we have verse 5 that says the same thing as Ephesians 1:13,14 UNTIL. Does until happen at death or the resurrection? I think the resurrection. Verse 6 begins with therefore always confident tying whatever comes after this to the earnest of the Spirit which is until? A question here. Is the the purchased possession some body that may have rotted away thousands of years ago or is it Peter, Jack or Alice the person that once was alive but isn't now? Paul states that while we are in this earthly body that will rot away we are absent from the Lord and he would rather be absent from this earthly body and be found in his heavenly body in the presence of the Lord not naked. Whenever that takes place. He has the earnest of the Spirit that he will have another body. When?

 

[percho]

Paul was giving His preference. He wanted to be living in his body when Jesus came from heaven. The only other alternative was the "naked" state of the soul/spirit or the spirit/soul existing apart from the body. However, even in that bodiless state of Paul, he would enter into the mansions in heaven while he awaited the resurrection when Christ would bring his immaterial self with him to be rejoined with his glorified body:

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Regardless, Paul was confident that if he stayed in his body the Lord was with him here on earth but if out of the body he would be present with the Lord in heaven. This confidency your position cannot have as you have complete cessation of Paul between physical death and the second coming.


Furthermore, the explicit language will not fit your position. There is something at "home in the body" and there is something "present with the Lord" at physical death that leaves the body so that it is no longer his home until the resurrection. The Aorist infinitives also deny such a gap of conscious existence between phyiscal death and the resurrection.

Your position is that of the Saduccees which both Paul and Christ refuted as it was the position of the Saduccees that at physical death all conscious existence ceased.

I understand the passage in 2 Cor. 5 to say that if his present body were dissolved he would not want to be found naked when Jesus came from heaven therefore he groaned to be clothed with his house from heaven. Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for you. Then he did not then say when you die you can come and possess it but he said I will come again and receive you. Has he come again?
Do you think that it might be life that is at home in the body? After all as long as there is life in the body it will not be totally dissolve.
I know no Greek and can not comment on that.
I thought the Sadducees denied there is a resurrection. Jesus died for our sins. Why was it necessary to resurrect Jesus?
The alive will not precede the dead in Christ where? The words even so in verse 14 of 1 Thess. 4 tie the resurrection of to Jesus to the manner by which God will bring with Jesus to where ever it is that the alive will not precede the dead. He'll bring them by resurrection. It is speaking of how the dead in Christ will inherit the kingdom of God. The same thing is said in 1 Cor. 15:50-54. The dead will rise then those alive they together will meet the Lord in the air and inherit the kingdom. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Without the resurrection of Christ there would be no salvation at all. We are being saved from our sins and the wages of sin is death. If Jesus did not rise victorious over death then sin is still the victor over Christ and us.

That is right, if his body dissolved - died, He would be without this earthly house and thus "naked." What is "naked" - Paul - the conscious immaterial self. Where would He be if he were without the body? He would be in his house in heaven as a spirit. This "naked" spirit would come with Christ (1 Thes. 4:14) and then be clothed upon by the glorified resurrected body.

Paul did not say "it" but "I" the personal conscious self. The Sadducees denied the resurrection because they also denied any conscious existence of the immaterial part of man (spirit) after physical death. Jesus strongly rebuked the Pharisees on both of these points. Jesus did not say that God "was" the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but "I AM" the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Sadducees believe Abraham Isaac and Jacob no longer existed.

I Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states that Christ will bring them "with" him. Hebrews 12:23 and Rev. 6:9-11 clearly demonstrate that such "spirits" of just men made perfect are now in heaven.

God and angels are "spirit" without physical bodies and are able to take up the human form as well. Part of being made in God's image is the ability to exist within or without such a material body.

There is a tremendous amount of Scriptural evidence to demonstrate that the human existence does not cease at physical death. The term "death" simply means separation. Spiritual death is separation of man's spiritual nature from God. Physical death is separation of the spiritual nature of man from the physical body. The Second death is eternal separation of the lost person both body and spirit from God. Death never means cessation of existence but "death" and "life" are two opposing forms of existence. Jesus told Martha that He gives unto them eternal life and they shall NEVER DIE (Jn. 11). However, you cannot believe that because you believe that all men do die because you limit the human existence to merely physical life and thus at physical death complete cessation of all existence.

I understand the passage in 2 Cor. 5 to say that if his present body were dissolved he would not want to be found naked when Jesus came from heaven therefore he groaned to be clothed with his house from heaven. Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for you. Then he did not then say when you die you can come and possess it but he said I will come again and receive you. Has he come again?
Do you think that it might be life that is at home in the body? After all as long as there is life in the body it will not be totally dissolve.
I know no Greek and can not comment on that.
I thought the Sadducees denied there is a resurrection. Jesus died for our sins. Why was it necessary to resurrect Jesus?
The alive will not precede the dead in Christ where? The words even so in verse 14 of 1 Thess. 4 tie the resurrection of to Jesus to the manner by which God will bring with Jesus to where ever it is that the alive will not precede the dead. He'll bring them by resurrection. It is speaking of how the dead in Christ will inherit the kingdom of God. The same thing is said in 1 Cor. 15:50-54. The dead will rise then those alive they together will meet the Lord in the air and inherit the kingdom. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[percho]

Dr. Walter

In your opinion was Tabitha more glad or more sad that Peter raised her from the dead? Why do Christians fight disease and spend so much money on their health trying to delay their going and being with the Lord?

I will ask again what do the two words in 1 Thess. 4:14 (even so) mean and or tie together. Is it not the manner in which the dead will be brought somewhere? They will be raised just as Jesus was raised?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Is there any record that Tabitha complained or any of her friends complained?

No human enjoys suffering and diseases and the agony that often accompanies the act of dying. Remember the consequences of sin are not joys but miseries.

Look, some at Thessalonica were acting like lost people at the funerals who had no hope after death because those lost people believed like you - death ends it all.

Paul was telling them that the burial of believer's bodies at the funeral was merely like a "sleep" for the body - temporary in nature, but they were in heaven with Christ and they had the first priority over living Christians when Christ returned "with them" as they would be reunited with their bodies and called up first before the living were caught up to be "with them."

The words "even so" refer to the basis of hope which is Jesus Christ. He died and his body was buried but He himself went with the spirit of the repentant theif to paradise (Lk. 23:43) but then he was reunited with his body on the third day as it was raised again out of the grave "even so" shall those that died are in heaven with Christ and Christ will bring them with him and they shall be reunited with their body and be raised from the grave.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Dr. Walter

In your opinion was Tabitha more glad or more sad that Peter raised her from the dead? Why do Christians fight disease and spend so much money on their health trying to delay their going and being with the Lord?

I will ask again what do the two words in 1 Thess. 4:14 (even so) mean and or tie together. Is it not the manner in which the dead will be brought somewhere? They will be raised just as Jesus was raised?

 

[percho]

Dr. Walter
So are you saying she was happy about returning from heaven?

On the contrary I have hope for I believe in the resurrection of the dead.


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again.

Even so. So you don't think this means in the same way?

Them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Adam Clark
Even so them
It necessarily follows that them who sleep-die, in him-in the faith of the Gospel, will God bring with him-he will raise them up as Jesus was raised from the dead, in the same manner.

Barnes
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again. That is, if we believe this, we ought also to believe that those who have died in the faith of Jesus will be raised from the dead.

Not going to use the space for Jamieson, Fausset and Brown but it is very, very interesting if you care to check.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Paul went to the third heaven and returned (2 Cor. 12). Do you think he liked coming back from heaven? So much for your Tabitha argument.

Your commentators are saying exactly what I said. Because Jesus Christ died, was buried but rose again "even so" there is resurrection hope for those who have died and gone to heaven because Christ will bring them "with him" when he comes back and they are given PRIORITY among the saints at His return.

 

[webdog]

Paul went to the third heaven and returned (2 Cor. 12). Do you think he liked coming back from heaven? So much for your Tabitha argument.

Your commentators are saying exactly what I said. Because Jesus Christ died, was buried but rose again "even so" there is resurrection hope for those who have died and gone to heaven because Christ will bring them "with him" when he comes back and they are given PRIORITY among the saints at His return.

Where in 2 Corinthians 12 does it say Paul went up to the third Heaven?

 

[percho]

Paul went to the third heaven and returned (2 Cor. 12). Do you think he liked coming back from heaven? So much for your Tabitha argument.

Your commentators are saying exactly what I said. Because Jesus Christ died, was buried but rose again "even so" there is resurrection hope for those who have died and gone to heaven because Christ will bring them "with him" when he comes back and they are given PRIORITY among the saints at His return.

I'm not arguing anything. I just wanted to know if you thought Tabitha might have wanted to have stayed in heaven with Jesus rather than having Peter raise her body and her having to return to it.

Commentary Critical and Explanatory
on the Whole Bible

14. For if--confirmation of his statement, 1 Thessalonians 4:13, that the removal of ignorance as to the sleeping believers would remove undue grief respecting them. See 1 Thessalonians 4:13, "hope." Hence it appears our hope rests on our faith ("if we believe"). "As surely as we all believe that Christ died and rose again (the very doctrine specified as taught at Thessalonica, Acts 17:3), so also will God bring those laid to sleep by Jesus with Him (Jesus)." (So the order and balance of the members of the Greek sentence require us to translate). Believers are laid in sleep by Jesus, and so will be brought back from sleep with Jesus in His train when He comes. The disembodied souls are not here spoken of; the reference is to the sleeping bodies. The facts of Christ's experience are repeated in the believer's. He died and then rose: so believers shall die and then rise with Him. But in His case death is the term used, 1 Corinthians 15:3,6, &c.; in theirs, sleep; because His death has taken for them the sting from death. The same Hand that shall raise them is that which laid them to sleep. "Laid to sleep by Jesus," answers to "dead in Christ" (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

The other commentators are saying the same as in bold from J, F and B

 

[Dr. Walter]

Where in 2 Corinthians 12 does it say Paul went up to the third Heaven?

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. - 2 Cor. 12:2

 

[webdog]

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. - 2 Cor. 12:2

First, in context of verse 1 he is speaking of visions and revelations and was unsure if it was done in the body or not. You have done something (stating it was bodily) even he could not do.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I'm not arguing anything. I just wanted to know if you thought Tabitha might have wanted to have stayed in heaven with Jesus rather than having Peter raise her body and her having to return to it.

Commentary Critical and Explanatory
on the Whole Bible

14. For if--confirmation of his statement, 1 Thessalonians 4:13, that the removal of ignorance as to the sleeping believers would remove undue grief respecting them. See 1 Thessalonians 4:13, "hope." Hence it appears our hope rests on our faith ("if we believe"). "As surely as we all believe that Christ died and rose again (the very doctrine specified as taught at Thessalonica, Acts 17:3), so also will God bring those laid to sleep by Jesus with Him (Jesus)." (So the order and balance of the members of the Greek sentence require us to translate). Believers are laid in sleep by Jesus, and so will be brought back from sleep with Jesus in His train when He comes. The disembodied souls are not here spoken of; the reference is to the sleeping bodies. The facts of Christ's experience are repeated in the believer's. He died and then rose: so believers shall die and then rise with Him. But in His case death is the term used, 1 Corinthians 15:3,6, &c.; in theirs, sleep; because His death has taken for them the sting from death. The same Hand that shall raise them is that which laid them to sleep. "Laid to sleep by Jesus," answers to "dead in Christ" (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

The other commentators are saying the same as in bold from J, F and B

The prepositional phrase "through Jesus" (dia Iesou) defines the sphere of salvation as obtained by his death, burial and resurrection for believers. Paul is saying that the death burial and resurrection of Christ provides the basis for Christians to believe that death witnessed at the funeral parlor is temporary and not permenant but as a "sleep." However, in regard to the soul of the believer, it never dies -

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
- Jn. 11:28

The question to you is "beleivest thou this?" Your final interpretation of this passage would deny you believe this.

You are correct that Greek scholars are divided upon the correct application of the words "God will bring with him." You are right that they deny the words "bring with him" refer to the souls. However, JFB and others do not suggest their interpretation means that the resurrection of the bodies of the saints chronologically occurs contemporaneous with the resurrection of the body of Christ from the grave as his grave was emptied 2000 years ago and these will be in their graves at the coming of Christ. Neither do they suggest that their interpretation denies that Christ will bring the souls of the saints with him when the resurrection of their bodies occur. Their idea is that those who sleep in Christ share the same resurrrection hope "with" Christ because of his victory over death, because Christ acted as a representative person for His people in obtaining victory through His death, burial and resurrection. What God did for Christ is what God will do for those who "sleep THROUGH (dia) Christ." Therefore "with Christ" is all inclusive of the entire process of victory over death in glorification. This phrase "sleep through Christ" restricts this hope to believers only as well as restricts the basis upon which this hope is founded. It is "through Christ" we have hope of all aspects of salvation including glorification.

Therefore the phrase "God will bring with him" has reference chronologically to the Second coming not when God raised Christ from the grave. The term "bring" translates the common word for "go" or "lead" or to be "led." This work of leading is attributed to God and is comprehensive of the complete work required in full glorification of the bodies of the saints. It begins with God leading the souls from heaven at the second advent into this atmosphere and then raising the physical body and reuniting the soul with that body and then leading it back up into the clouds all completed before the living are transformed and raptured to the same place.

 

[percho]

Dr Walter

Do you think we hope, in the not so distant future that Daniel 7:13,14/Revelation 11:15 will take place in conjunction with 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17/Daniel 2:44/Daniel 7:22. The great salvation Hebrews 2:5-9.

Jesus returns from heaven, those alive will not precede those who have died/sleep in Christ but they the dead in Christ just as he died and was raised again will be raised first then joined with them still alive and together will meet the Lord in the air and enter the above.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

They were concerned about those who had died. How are those we buried going to be in the kingdom?
Then Paul tells them how they will be in the kingdom. Jesus will bring them with him after raising them from the dead.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr Walter

Do you think we hope, in the not so distant future that Daniel 7:13,14/Revelation 11:15 will take place in conjunction with 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17/Daniel 2:44/Daniel 7:22. The great salvation Hebrews 2:5-9.

Jesus returns from heaven, those alive will not precede those who have died/sleep in Christ but they the dead in Christ just as he died and was raised again will be raised first then joined with them still alive and together will meet the Lord in the air and enter the above.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

They were concerned about those who had died. How are those we buried going to be in the kingdom?
Then Paul tells them how they will be in the kingdom. Jesus will bring them with him after raising them from the dead.

The words "flesh and blood" refers to man in his natural state as he enters this present world not the regenerate and/or glorified state. Simply check out all references to the phrase "flesh and blood" and you will see that it is not to be taken literally but is an expression for the natural state of man as he enters into this world.

 

[percho]

The words "flesh and blood" refers to man in his natural state as he enters this present world not the regenerate and/or glorified state. Simply check out all references to the phrase "flesh and blood" and you will see that it is not to be taken literally but is an expression for the natural state of man as he enters into this world.

I put this in here to show that in our present state that we were born with we cannot be in the kingdom of God. The kingdom is something we inherit in the future.

Do you think the verses in the first part of that post are speaking of the same time frame?

 

[percho]

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
- Jn. 11:28

The question to you is "beleivest thou this?" Your final interpretation of this passage would deny you believe this.

John 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Believe thou this?

Luke 20:35,36 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children (born) of God, being the children (born) of the resurrection.

Revelation 20:4,6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now that is real once saved always saved.

The young ruler asked about inheriting eternal life. Jesus equated this to entering the kingdom of God. Those that heard him equated entering the kingdom of God to being saved. Then Jesus equated what had been said to the world to come and life everlasting.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (Wonder when this is?)

Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (You would think going to heaven would be at least part of the promise) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Wonder when this is?)

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your quotations prove that when the body dies something within never dies and at the resurrection the body will be raised to life never more to die.

The New creation has not yet arrived and therefore the old Testament saints did not obtain that. Instead, they are reserved in heaven until the Lord saves a great number out of the gentiles before He returns and ushers in that new world.

John saw "the souls" (Rev. 20:4) before they were reunited with their bodies in the first resurrection. Their souls he saw were not buried in the ground but in heaven awaiting the resurrection of their bodies. They "lived" in this world again through reunion with their bodies.

We enter into the kingdom of God or under His rule now when we are born again, and what is born of Spirit "is spirit." Some day His kingdom will be on earth and visibly manifested with Him reigning over this world as King of kings and Lord of lords and all the saints that have died with bodies buried and spirits in heaven will "live" in their human bodies on earth once again through the first resurrection.

I John 3:9 is "now" (see I Jn. 3:1) and refers to that which is born of God - what is born of Spirit "is spirit" (Jn. 3:6).

The promise given to the Old Testament saints was the NEW JERUSALEM ON EARTH (Heb. 11:10). They were looking for it ON EARTH but did not find it. They still have not obtained that promise and won't until they come back to earth through the resurrected bodies and that city comes down (Rev. 21:1).

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
- Jn. 11:28

The question to you is "beleivest thou this?" Your final interpretation of this passage would deny you believe this.

John 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Believe thou this?

Luke 20:35,36 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children (born) of God, being the children (born) of the resurrection.

Revelation 20:4,6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now that is real once saved always saved.

The young ruler asked about inheriting eternal life. Jesus equated this to entering the kingdom of God. Those that heard him equated entering the kingdom of God to being saved. Then Jesus equated what had been said to the world to come and life everlasting.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (Wonder when this is?)

Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (You would think going to heaven would be at least part of the promise) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Wonder when this is?)