Three-fold nature of Man

[percho]

Dr Walter

Jesus That which is born of the flesh is flesh That which is born of the spirit is spirit

Paul There is a natural body there is a spiritual body

Is the above saying the exact same thing?

And as we have borne the image of the earthy we shall also bear the image of the heavenly

Exactly when did we begin to bear the image of the earthly? What does being the children of the resurrection imply? What is the root meaning of the word bear, in we shall also bear? Is the natural, earthly man flesh and blood til the day he dies? Is you presently spirit in the context of the above assuming the answer to my first question is yes?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr Walter

Jesus That which is born of the flesh is flesh That which is born of the spirit is spirit

Paul There is a natural body there is a spiritual body

Is the above saying the exact same thing?

And as we have borne the image of the earthy we shall also bear the image of the heavenly

Exactly when did we begin to bear the image of the earthly? What does being the children of the resurrection imply? What is the root meaning of the word bear, in we shall also bear? Is the natural, earthly man flesh and blood til the day he dies? Is you presently spirit in the context of the above assuming the answer to my first question is yes?

John 3:6 refers to the IMMATERIAL part of man while I Corithians 15 deals with the MATERIAL part of man.

Previous to the resurrection of the MATERIAL body the present MATERIAL body bears the EARTHLY IMAGE from natural birth to death. It is a "soul" driven body or SELF-driven/controlled body (intellect, will and emotions).

The "image of the heavenly" refers to the MATERIAL body at the resurrection when all corruption due to sin is removed and it is no longer under "self-cntrol (soulish - intellect, emotions and will) aspect of the immaterial nature. This body is a "spiritual" body in the sense that it is controlled or driven by the immaterial part of man dominated by the regenerated spirit.

In this present life the self-conscious immaterial part of man (soul - mind, emotions, will) is in a battle between the regenerated spirit - created in true righteousness and holiness and "the law of sin" dwelling in "the members" or that aspect through which the outer world has immediate contact with and temptational influence upon through the five senses of the natural body. Sometimes we (soul) loses this battle and other times it wins - that is, some times we "walk in the spirit" and other times we "walk in the flesh." Hence, the regenerated spirit of man is not controlling the body at all times.

In the resurrected glorified body there is complete domination by the regenerated spirit of man not only over the soul but the physical body so that both are always living after/controlled by the spirt.

The terms "flesh and blood" is the common expression to describe the NATURAL MAN. Jesus told Peter that "flesh and blood" had not revealed the truth of who Christ was to him but His Father. This demonstrates that the terms "flesh and blood" refer to NATURAL MAN because literally "flesh and blood" cannot reveal anything to anyone as literal flesh and literal blood have no capacity to communicate. Hence, this phrase is representative of the NATURAL STATE of NATURAL man. Jesus simply meant that this understanding of who Christ is, was not revealed to Peter by NATURAL MAN.

 

[percho]

Dr Walter
You missed one.
What does being the children of the resurrection imply?

And you know this how? John 3:6 refers to the IMMATERIAL part of man while I Corithians 15 deals with the MATERIAL part of man.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr Walter
You missed one.
What does being the children of the resurrection imply?

And you know this how? John 3:6 refers to the IMMATERIAL part of man while I Corithians 15 deals with the MATERIAL part of man.

Jesus is called the "firstborn from the dead." The tomb is likened unto a womb out of which comes a living body. Likewise, out of the tombs will come living bodies and God is the one giving life - thus "children of the resurrection."

In John 3:6 there is a contrast between material substance and immaterial substance ("flesh" versus "spirit"). It is the immaterial substance that is born of the Spirit not the material substance.

In I Cor. 15 the subject from the beginning is the resurrection of the body out of the grave.

 

[percho]

Jesus is called the "firstborn from the dead." The tomb is likened unto a womb out of which comes a living body. Likewise, out of the tombs will come living bodies and God is the one giving life - thus "children of the resurrection."

In John 3:6 there is a contrast between material substance and immaterial substance ("flesh" versus "spirit"). It is the immaterial substance that is born of the Spirit not the material substance.

In I Cor. 15 the subject from the beginning is the resurrection of the body out of the grave.

So I finally got one right we like Christ will be born from the dead.

So it's not the flesh material substance that was born from mommy and daddy when we came into the world that will be born from above but some other part of that which came into the world.

I guess all those pronouns of Christ in 1 Cor. 15 should be translated his body.

 

[percho]

Dr Walter

I John 3:9 is "now" (see I Jn. 3:1) and refers to that which is born of God - what is born of Spirit "is spirit" (Jn. 3:6).

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, (John here agrees with Paul Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. And it is now, because we have the Spirit of adoption we are the children of God and joint heirs with Christ) and it doth not yet appear what we shall be(Is this now?) but we know that, when he shall appear,(Is this now?) we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:9,10 Whosoever is born of God (Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.) doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, (Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.) and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

Titus 3:5-7 and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (The Holy Spirit makes us heirs.) (What do we inherit?)

 

[Dr. Walter]

So I finally got one right we like Christ will be born from the dead.

So it's not the flesh material substance that was born from mommy and daddy when we came into the world that will be born from above but some other part of that which came into the world.

I guess all those pronouns of Christ in 1 Cor. 15 should be translated his body.

The body that went into the grave is the body that comes out of the grave but with only one difference - the corrupting presence of sin is removed. The body of Jesus that went into the grave is the body that came out of the grave. It went in sin cursed by bearing our sins and came out incapable of death completely victorious over death.

The "children of the resurrection" is a metaphorical phrase only not to be literally understood as there was no actual birth as the grave was no actual womb. It is a figure of speech only.

 

[percho]

Dr Walter

The "children of the resurrection" is a metaphorical phrase only not to be literally understood as there was no actual birth as the grave was no actual womb. It is a figure of speech only.

This is true and is spoken that way five or more times of Jesus as if he were born by resurrection. Without thinking long and hard on I can thing of four times it implies the same for us. Also to me it is clear from the word of God that we are first born corruptible, flesh, by earthly parents, natural beings afterward at the return of Jesus we are born incorruptible, spirit, by God our Father, spiritual beings.

As Forrest Gump would say, "that's all I have to say about that".

Well maybe.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr Walter

The "children of the resurrection" is a metaphorical phrase only not to be literally understood as there was no actual birth as the grave was no actual womb. It is a figure of speech only.

This is true and is spoken that way five or more times of Jesus as if he were born by resurrection. Without thinking long and hard on I can thing of four times it implies the same for us. Also to me it is clear from the word of God that we are first born corruptible, flesh, by earthly parents, natural beings afterward at the return of Jesus we are born incorruptible, spirit, by God our Father, spiritual beings.

As Forrest Gump would say, "that's all I have to say about that".

Well maybe.

Whooops you forgot or ignored that John says we are "NOW" the children of God and it is not because of past physical birth or future resurrection but we have been quickend in between (I Jn. 3:1; Eph. 2:1,5,8-10) and what "IS" born of Spirit "IS" spirit.

 

[Hawkins]

If experience counts at all, I know what spirit is.

I was raised in an atheist country (red China) and didn't know much about Christianity and the Holy Bible. To simply put, I had an encounter and that's before I read the Bible and acquired the soul/spirit/body concept.

The spirit is in a shape of a flying dove (I bet that you can't find out a better description). It took control of me for awhile but my consciousness was not with it (my consciousness was with my soul, I believe. And I was so scared). When I thought back, it can be said that "whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth".

I don't like to talk about it that much because there are always people yelling 'Heresy!' or 'It's your delusion!'. :laugh:


And that's long before I read the following.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

Till one day, I sat in the church watching the arts on the wall, I suddenly realised that my own spirit which I saw was so much like the dove representing the Holy Spirit.

After all these, if you ask me to disbelieve God, I can't. Similarly, if you ask me to disbelieve that we are three-fold in nature, I can't.

And I bet that you shall see the same at the last moment of your earthly life, that is, the spliting of the soul, spirit and body.

God Bless.

 

[percho]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Dr. Walter]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Yes, the spirit of man is immaterial possessing no visible form as that is the nature of something that is spiritual in nature. God is "spirit" and possesses no visible form although like the Holy Spirit can manifest Himself in visible forms "as a dove" or in the human Jesus of Nazereth (Jn. 1:14,18).

The human spirit is immaterial and without form and therefore invisible and it has no power to manifest itself in any kind of form whether "as a dove" or any other visible manifestation.

 

[Hawkins]

Yes, the spirit of man is immaterial possessing no visible form as that is the nature of something that is spiritual in nature. God is "spirit" and possesses no visible form although like the Holy Spirit can manifest Himself in visible forms "as a dove" or in the human Jesus of Nazereth (Jn. 1:14,18).

The human spirit is immaterial and without form and therefore invisible and it has no power to manifest itself in any kind of form whether "as a dove" or any other visible manifestation.

I believe (by my experience) that this is not entirely true. Because somehow the angels/cherub can be seen while they don't possess a material (substance in our realm/space) body.

To me, soul is more like a worm while our body is more like a cocoon. Human soul/spirit can be transparent (i.e. by default our soul should be transparent). Yet it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have a form.

Isaiah 66:24
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Moreover the term soul is used to distinguish the two parts 'soul and spirit', and sometimes it is exchangably used with 'spirit' if the two parts are not emphasized.

While manifection is something else. In some cases where someone declares that he saw ghosts, ghosts are usually manifested images.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I don't challenge what you claimed you saw but I do challenge how you interpret it. Whatever form a spirit may take is invisible just as God who is "spirit" is also said to be the "invisible" God that no man has every seen His form.

You nor I have any ability to visibly manifest our own souls

I believe (by my experience) that this is not entirely true. Because somehow the angels/cherub can be seen while they don't possess a material (substance in our realm/space) body.

To me, soul is more like a worm while our body is more like a cocoon. Human soul/spirit can be transparent (i.e. by default our soul should be transparent). Yet it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have a form.

Isaiah 66:24
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Moreover the term soul is used to distinguish the two parts 'soul and spirit', and sometimes it is exchangably used with 'spirit' if the two parts are not emphasized.

While manifection is something else. In some cases where someone declares that he saw ghosts, ghosts are usually manifested images.

 

[Hawkins]

I don't challenge what you claimed you saw but I do challenge how you interpret it. Whatever form a spirit may take is invisible just as God who is "spirit" is also said to be the "invisible" God that no man has every seen His form.

You nor I have any ability to visibly manifest our own souls

I already pointed out that your POV is not true. The angels are also spirits in nature. The cherub have a form. The form of the cherub is clearly shown in the ark of the covenant, which are aparently not something invisible.

Isaiah 6:2
Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

God choose to describe the Holy Spirit as a dove may not be some kind of fluke or random fashion. It can bear in-depth meanings. If you deny this, you have to declare that God randomly show up as a dove. To me, the Bible doesn't seem to incline to say so. Anyway, I don't think you can claim that the form of dove must not or cannot bear any in-depth meanings.

You nor I have any ability to visibly manifest our own souls

That remains your personal speculation, as there's no scripture support for your claim here. On the other hand, I already show you the verse from Isaiah that souls can possibly appear in a form as 'worm'. Yet I agree that souls can be invisible/transparent.

Moreover, if you mean to say that we cannot show up as a soul in this planet earth, then possible. But in Hades..hmm..who knows.

for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched;

Moreover, (if this counts at all) my interpretation is a perfect match to my own experience, that is, my experience before I dig up those verses from the Bible.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. The only time I see in scripture where man is made up of three is when he is born again. Soul and spirit is the same except when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in mans heart.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. The only time I see in scripture where man is made up of three is when he is born again. Soul and spirit is the same except when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in mans heart.

C.H. Spurgeon believed what you do. However, the overwhelming Biblical evidence demonstrates there is a distintion between the human spirit and soul (Heb. 4:12) and if God's Word can discern the difference that is all we need to know there is a difference. Great men make great mistakes and this is one of the mistakes made by Spurgeon.

 

[Jedi Knight]

C.H. Spurgeon believed what you do. However, the overwhelming Biblical evidence demonstrates there is a distintion between the human spirit and soul (Heb. 4:12) and if God's Word can discern the difference that is all we need to know there is a difference. Great men make great mistakes and this is one of the mistakes made by Spurgeon.

I think you stretch too much out of that scripture.:type:

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think you stretch too much out of that scripture.:type:

You think so? Why? It says explicity and specifically that the highest authority distinguishes between the human spirit and the human soul, just as much as it discerns between bone morrow and the bone "joints".


For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Does the Word of God make a distinction between "thoughts" and "intents" of the heart? Yes. Is there a clear difference between "joints" and "Morrow"? Yes there is. Why in the world would you doubt God's Word there is a distinction between the human "spirit" and "soul" when there is a clear distinction in everything listed?

I am not stretching the scriptures at all. I am just accepting what the Word of God explcitly and clearly says exists and are distinctions that exist. If I have to take a choice of what authority to stand with - I think I have chosen the highest authority for truth.


My friend, you are simply rejecting the clear and explicit teaching of Scripture.

 

[Jedi Knight]

You think so? Why? It says explicity and specifically that the highest authority distinguishes between the human spirit and the human soul, just as much as it discerns between bone morrow and the bone "joints".



My friend, you are simply rejecting the clear and explicit teaching of Scripture.

Sorry,I disagree. When Thomas said to the risen Lord "My Lord and my God",was he saying Jesus is two diffrent beings? Obviously not! "You my friend" are making more out of something that simply is interchangable wording for soul or spirit.....other than for example like in Romans 8 where the Holy Spirit is presant in man's soul "because of the new birth" is making intersession. And to say I am rejecting clear teaching? Do you not have bigger fish to fry? Do you think the bible is written for theologians only? I think the Master teacher would have not missed a single componant as part of the "body and soul" being cast into Hell........ I think even a child can get this.