quantumfaith
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:thumbs: Agreed, it some of the "other" stuff that we are not in agreement on. (General, not personal statement)
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T.u.l.i.p
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:thumbs: Agreed, it some of the "other" stuff that we are not in agreement on. (General, not personal statement)
Yes for earthy decrees (such as the destiny of a nation) not for the eternal life of the individual.
The issue is with the interpretation some people claim as being inerrent and as infallable as the bible itself. However the bible speaks for itself, therefore I don't have a problem with God or the bible.
I have never done that. Only according to your interpretation which is clearly debatable.
Darren
Sounds good enough.:type:
BTW, you Calvinist should make up your mind whether God "passes over" the unregenerate/unelected or hardens. If God hardens them in relation to salvation then God has certainly NOT passed over them, God in fact has taken action to make them worse off. That said then its not enough they are unregenerate and unelected they still need to be hardened still? But then again they are also spiritually dead (T.D) and will be cast into the lake of fire because these things. There is no good news to tell them and no hope for them at all.
Darren
Darren
Underlining mine.
Several things wrong here.
1. God does not make men worse off. That would be good being the author of evil.
2. By the nature of His choosing (selecting) some, that of course, make a difference between those selected and those not. But the emphasis on the Bible is the electing - in fact, it is surprising how often this is taught, especially in the NT.
3. People are not cast in the firs because of being spiritually dead, but because of their having chosen sin. We all have had enough exposure to the the truth to be culpable before God. Not all have been given the grace to believe and "run with" the Truth (Christ).
We do have passages where God hardens - Pharaoh, for instance. Romans said that God had raised him up specifically to make His power known. This is heavy stuff, and hard to think about, but we shouldn't deny what is in Scripture.
We also have passages where hardness happens as a result of Truth being preached but not believed: Isa. 6
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:
“ Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?”
Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘ Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 “ Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”
Paul spoke of this also, Rom. 11:7
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
This whole hardening doctrine is a problem for the Calvinist. First the person can harden their own heart and second why would God harden their heart to prevent them from believing the gospel and being saved if they can't be saved anyway because they are not regerated and not elected. Makes no sense.
Now the hardening can't be used to back up "passing over" for a proof text, just admit it. Each mention in scripture does not back up passing over neither does it back up the rest of "T.U.L.I". Because God hardened for the cause of earthly decrees not eternal life/new covenant and as I said man can harden their own heart and were exhorted to not harden their heart.
Darren
And fulfilled for a specific group of Jews, at a specific time and in a specific place. That does not pave the way for a universal rule for all people for all time. The bible is very clear that it didn't apply (blindness or hardness) to Gentiles anyway and the application was for that national group (Israel) not individuals.
Darren
This passage is not just about OT Jews. It is one of the 3 most quoted OT passages in the NT. There is a reason for that. It is a universal truth that didn't end when the Testament did.
How does it become a universal truth by quoting it in its own fulfillment and for its intended usage? Can you give an example how it applies to Gentiles?
Darren
:laugh: Well said webdog! :applause:
Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
I think Paul sums it up perfectly on the issue of Isaiah 6:10. I can't find any universal rule, in its context and for its fulfillment and usage its pretty much settled. So I still find no reason to think that hardening is a purposeful action God does universally to prevent people from being saved, although they are not regenerated or elected anyway; this still does not work to prove the Calvinist doctrine of "passing over" as a supporting text.
Darren
You nailed them on that one, Darrenss1. Note to Calvinists, this is merely an intellectual remark pertaining to the ongoing debate. It is not given to offend anyone. To borrow from webdog, this point also, presents quite a conundrum to you.
I am running out of time for today on the computer, Darren. I do agree that the Isaiah passage - and that Acts one, I think, is the last use of it - always refers to the Jews. I see now that I was unclear as to my phrasing. There is more that I want to add, but it will have to wait for now. Hopefully tomorrow.
But one thought for now: Do you not think that "God is not a respecter of persons" (Romans 2) does not have some bearing on this very issue?
Take care.
All Vers From The TNIV
Scripture refutes you.
Romans 9:22,23 : What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath -- prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.
The Apostle is clearly dealing with eternal destinies, not temporal blesses or curses. "Objects of wrath prepared for destruction" and "objects of his mercy whom he prepared in advance for glory" is plainly facing us with matters of eternal weight -- two destinies Perdition and Heaven.
You do have issues with the Lord having the perfect right to do whatsoever He so desires regardless if you object. You may think He is being unjust -- but he would tell you :"Who in the world do you think you are talking back to God!"
Scripture refutes you.
Romans 9:22,23 : What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath -- prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.
The Apostle is clearly dealing with eternal destinies, not temporal blesses or curses. "Objects of wrath prepared for destruction" and "objects of his mercy whom he prepared in advance for glory" is plainly facing us with matters of eternal weight -- two destinies Perdition and Heaven.
You do have issues with the Lord having the perfect right to do whatsoever He so desires regardless if you object. You may think He is being unjust -- but he would tell you :"Who in the world do you think you are talking back to God!"
Indeed. As I'm typing this a clear super-majority of 54 members accept four of the points.Those believing in particular redemption are half so far. Soon, I predict that that proposition will be at the 60% mark.
Unbelieveable, you actually believe God makes certain men for the purpose of destroying them! What an absolute misrepresentation of a loving God who wants all men to be saved.
The KJB gives a very different meaning for Romans 9:22
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
God did not prepare these men to destroy them, they were "fitted to destruction", that is, by their own wicked works they made themselves worthy of destruction. This is a very different understanding of what you believe.
Matthew Henry did a good job explaining this verse, and had a very different interpretation than you.
God did not make these persons evil, he is not the author of sin. They made their own selves fit for destruction. That is very different from what you believe.
This shows how different versions convey very different understandings.
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The demons referenced in James 2:19 believe as much as you. It's not nearly enough. What about the fact that Christ was the sin-bearer for His people? He is Savior and Lord. What about the fact that He rose from the dead for our justification? What about so many other corollaries?
Sorry, your bottom line is below the minimum.
Or rather your interpretation of scripture conflicts with mine.
This is not a passage that I understand to be refering to eternal life election/predestination. For one reason no one would give God glory for fitting someone for destruction in hell, the idea being God showing wrath to vessels of destruction so the ones having obtained mercy can give God glory, they wouldn't know they ended up in destruction to begin with, therefore how could they give God glory? It has to refer to the living and national (historical) circumstances where God judges the kings and nations of the world in the world, whereby the destruction of one nation (Egypt) provides for mercy and the salvation of another nation (Israel).
Secondly this would mean people are predestined to the lake of fire, since the one whom was fitted for destruction had no choice but to be destroyed, spiritually and eternally. This does not support the passing over doctrine either.
There you go again, your interpretation = infallable and authoritive truth.
:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:
Darren
You have issues with the Word of God.
The Lord wants all of His own to be saved. He has determined that people from among all nations,tribes and languages will be saved.
The KJV and TNIV renderings have the very same meaning!
Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction = objects of his wrath prepared for destruction.
Anyone who dies without Christ will have an eternity in the Lake of Fire. It will be entirely their fault. But, by the same token, the Lord has appointed them for reprobation. Do you believe that God is justified in the damnation of sinners?
You have a bad habit of attributing false statements to others including yours truly. You better start obeying your KJV that you defend at all costs.
Of course the Lord doesn't make people evil. Folks have that special ability honed to perfection without needing any assistance.
Of course God is not the author of sin. When you repeat such sinfully false statements to others what does that make you Winman?
It shows me that you are KJVO to the core and that English is problematic for you.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Nope.
Genesis 6:5--The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (ESV; emphasis mine)
Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (ESV)
Ephesians 2:1-3And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (ESV; emphases mine)
This spiritual death sounds exactly the way Calvinists describe it.
The Archangel
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